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Old 10th February 2023, 11:07 AM   #81
wareyin
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
For context.

I'm told that if Reps don't elect people that embody racism, then folks will stop calling them racist.
I suggest that appointing someone who is Black to one of the most powerful positions in the country implies you don't embody racism and that didn't stop lefties from calling them racists.
You respond with, hiring a black man doesn't mean you aren't racist.
Indeed. You're trying to suggest that hiring a black person says you aren't racist, but we know that racist people do hire black people. Even Trump had black people working at his casinos. You're doing the "I can't be racist, I have that one black friend" routine but in politics, and you have no clue how stupid that is.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I can't read the whole article, pay wall, but your evidence seems to that Jerry Jones was a racist when he was 14.

This illustrates a lot actually.

A. All forms of racism are equally bad. Voting for a guy who is racist despite no clear evidence other than his being a Republican is the same as voting for an obvious racist.
B. There is no way to demonstrate you aren't a racist.
C. There is no redemption for former racists.

"A" has been demonstrated to be absolutely a BS take multiple times. You're flat out ignoring the actual racist **** done by people in public to whine that they're only called racist because they're Republican.

"B" you don't have to demonstrate that you aren't a racist. But, to the ahhells of the world, there is actually no way to demonstrate someone is a racist to the point that calling them racist would be justifiable.

"C" is just a stupid take. If you don't change your racist behavior then you don't get "redemption".

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
And you guys can't figure out why they won't vote for Dems.
You must have missed my edit to respond to that particular take, so allow me to repost: Yeah, the Reps are so damn popular that they've lost the popular vote 7 out of the last 8 Presidential elections.
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Old 10th February 2023, 11:11 AM   #82
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I couldn't make up a better example of the "Oh so you think I should be a better person? Well just who the hell are you to tell me that? Just for that, I'm going to be an even worse person! I'm going to be a worse person and it's all your fault!" attitude then this.

I don't even know how to make a joke about pointing out the Right's reaction any valid criticism of them is to double down on doing it when the only reaction we're getting in this thread is to double down on doing it.

"It's really the Dem's fault I'm a Republican." Let be clear here. (Insert MA unfriendly word here) each and every version of that.
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Old 10th February 2023, 11:28 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't even know how to make a joke about pointing out the Right's reaction any valid criticism of them is to double down on doing when the only reaction we're getting in this thread is to double down on doing."
You do it like this:
https://thenib.com/fault-right/
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Old 10th February 2023, 11:39 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Nope, unless Mitt Romney absolutely embodies racism, or Larry Elder, either bush?

The guys that appointed multiple African Americans to positions of high authority, absolutely embodied racism.
I noticed of your examples of non-racist republicans only one is holding public office, one has never been elected as far as I know, one hasn't been very active in politics for over a decade, and one is dead.
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Old 10th February 2023, 11:43 AM   #85
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Did the "Lincoln freed the slaves so Republicans can't be racist!" button finally break from overuse?
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Old 10th February 2023, 11:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Indeed. You're trying to suggest that hiring a black person says you aren't racist, but we know that racist people do hire black people. Even Trump had black people working at his casinos. You're doing the "I can't be racist, I have that one black friend" routine but in politics, and you have no clue how stupid that is.




"A" has been demonstrated to be absolutely a BS take multiple times. You're flat out ignoring the actual racist **** done by people in public to whine that they're only called racist because they're Republican.

"B" you don't have to demonstrate that you aren't a racist. But, to the ahhells of the world, there is actually no way to demonstrate someone is a racist to the point that calling them racist would be justifiable.

"C" is just a stupid take. If you don't change your racist behavior then you don't get "redemption".


A. Literally no distinction is being made between embodying racism and someone who is a racist without evidence of them actually being a racist.
B. IMHO, if you are going to call someone a racist, there ought to be a reason. You've not actually tried to show that GW Bush is racist, you've just said, "hiring a black man" does show it you aren't. I agree, that is howerver a disingenous description of appointing someone to be Secretary of State.
C. Your evidence that that a 80 year old man is a racist is from when he was 14.

Quote:
You must have missed my edit to respond to that particular take, so allow me to repost: Yeah, the Reps are so damn popular that they've lost the popular vote 7 out of the last 8 Presidential elections. :rolleyes
:
Note my point. My point is, you're calling them evil and your evidence for that is that they don't vote for your side. Why would they vote for your side when you call them evil.

I know, to not be evil, they just have to not vote for evil candidates. Wel, your side voted for a senile old liar. I'm not going to call him evil but I don't see it as evidence that you prefer senile old liars to honest competant people. I think it means you just prefer a senile old liar to a racist old liar, or just maybe, you don't think biden is senile.
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Old 10th February 2023, 11:52 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TokenMac View Post
I noticed of your examples of non-racist republicans only one is holding public office, one has never been elected as far as I know, one hasn't been very active in politics for over a decade, and one is dead.
That's just a non-sequitor. They just show that you can't be a republican without being called a racist, and its been that way for decades. Even being black doesn't work.

So, when someone says, if you don't want to be called a racist, just don't be a racist. It can't be done, its just a lie, like Lucy with the football.

Last edited by ahhell; 10th February 2023 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 10th February 2023, 11:52 AM   #88
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Republicans literally have current members of Congress who openly and proudly attend white supremacist rallies while the rest of the Republicans look the other way.

But sure, go off.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Did the "Lincoln freed the slaves so Republicans can't be racist!" button finally break from overuse?
I wonder if you you have that much trouble reading or you that dishonest.

I have never said republicans can't be racist. I've said, not all republicans are racist and my main point is that just yelling racist at them will not help your cause, especially when you are clearly wrong or lying about it. Granted, you aren't always wrong, Trump was either a racist or willing to pander to racist, doesn't really matter. Even then, voting for a racist doesn't make you a racist. In two party system it means you had two bad choices. Which, right up to the 2016 election it was pretty clear that's how most republicans felt. After that, various cognitive biases kicked in and they began justifying their choice. You guys make that easy for them.

As I mentioned, I'd vote for trump over you. Not over Biden or Clinton but defintely over you. Given what you've said in this thread, you'd probably put me in a camp or worse.

Edit to add, I add that last bit to show that I could be induced to voter for Trump for non racist reasons.

Last edited by ahhell; 10th February 2023 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:14 PM   #90
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Bit of tangent but I wonder how many of you think that criminals are mostly criminals due to their environment, poverty, society, etc.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:16 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
A. Literally no distinction is being made between embodying racism and someone who is a racist without evidence of them actually being a racist.
Your attempts to make racist acts an inherent, unchangeable trait are so cute. "Embodying racism". Hah. I can't help doing the racist **** I'm doing, because racism is just this thing I do!

But no. The evidence of someone being a racist is when they say and/or do racist things. You just have your "racist things" meter so far out of wack that you don't think it's fair to call the Grand Wizard of the KKK a racist.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
B. IMHO, if you are going to call someone a racist, there ought to be a reason. You've not actually tried to show that GW Bush is racist, you've just said, "hiring a black man" does show it you aren't. I agree, that is howerver a disingenous description of appointing someone to be Secretary of State.
I've given you a reason that I called Trump a racist. Multiple reasons. You ignored them. But no, he "appointed" a black guy to a job isn't any more of a magical "I can be as racist as I want and get out of jail free now" card than "hiring" a black guy is.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
C. Your evidence that that a 80 year old man is a racist is from when he was 14.
Jesus H Christ. That's one piece of evidence, and it's pretty god damn damning. But it's not the only one, and the point was that racist people can and do hire black people. Which you still seem to struggle with.

:
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Note my point. My point is, you're calling them evil and your evidence for that is that they don't vote for your side. Why would they vote for your side when you call them evil.
People happy to vote for racist candidates are a minority, but ahhell thinks they're a majority so Dems better just stop complaining about racist ****.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:21 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Even then, voting for a racist doesn't make you a racist. In two party system it means you had two bad choices.
It makes you racist if the other choice doesn't do anything that bad. if your given a choice between racist and someone with spinach in their teeth and you do a big show of "OH MY LORDY TWO BAD CHOICES, GUESS I HAVE TO GO WITH THE RACIST" then yes you are 100% racist.

You're hiding behind the "Both sides are bad" copout and pretending like both sides are equally bad is anywhere near a sane read of things. You're looking a sponge and the Pacific Ocean and going "Yep, both wet. No difference between the two."

What sins have the Democrats committed that makes them worse than racism? Provide examples. Real ones. Explain your judgement calls as to what the Democrats have done that have just given nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooo choice but to cuddle up to the Right. I dare you.

I will not get answer, but I'd like one.

And to be clear, stuff that actually happened, not lies you made up, or lies other people made up and told you to believe.

Again you couldn't be doing what we are saying you are doing any harder if you tried. You've turned into the skid "Oh I hate voting Republican I surely, but the Democrats don't leave me any choice" nonsense.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:48 PM   #93
ahhell
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Your attempts to make racist acts an inherent, unchangeable trait are so cute. "Embodying racism". Hah. I can't help doing the racist **** I'm doing, because racism is just this thing I do!
I'm not the one who introduced the phrase embodying racism.
So, its cute that you think I'm the one making racism an unchangeable trait. I'm not the one using a 60 year old photo as evidence that an 80 year old man is racist.
Quote:
But no. The evidence of someone being a racist is when they say and/or do racist things. You just have your "racist things" meter so far out of wack that you don't think it's fair to call the Grand Wizard of the KKK a racist.
See above, evidence that an 80 year man is racist is what he did when he was 14. I'm not the one making that claim.
Quote:

I've given you a reason that I called Trump a racist. Multiple reasons. You ignored them. But no, he "appointed" a black guy to a job isn't any more of a magical "I can be as racist as I want and get out of jail free now" card than "hiring" a black guy is.
I have agreed that he is racist or panders to racist, functionally the same, I'm not the one ignoring things.

Quote:

Jesus H Christ. That's one piece of evidence, and it's pretty god damn damning. But it's not the only one, and the point was that racist people can and do hire black people. Which you still seem to struggle with.

:


People happy to vote for racist candidates are a minority, but ahhell thinks they're a majority so Dems better just stop complaining about racist ****.
I'm the one saying that people who are happy to vote for a racist are the minority and that's why Dems should stop calling everyone else a racist. Its the boy calling wolf. That's the problem. Its most everyone else in this thread saying that republicans are merely voting for racist. I'm saying they've got a choice between two sides. One has a bunch of racist and the other has a bunch of people that hate republicans and think they are racists too.

Equating appointing someone to one of the most powerful offices in the US government to hiring a black man is BS that anyone can see. Acting like I did that to say Trump isn't racist is BS that anyone can smell.

We have a two party system in the US. Voting for a racist doesn't actually demonstrate that you are a racist, it shows that you think the racist is the least bad option.

The thing is, the left voted for a guy who is the second most dishonest presidential candidate in the last 30 years. If he hadn't been preceeded by Trump, we'd all be shocked by his constant stream of BS. He's gross race panderer. He said Romney would put Black People back in chains, if a black person didn't vote for him, they weren't black, and described Georgia's current voting laws as worse than Jim Crow.

Now, y'all will justify those comments in a way very similar to how republicans justify voting for trump. That's fine, I get it, I just don't buy it. I desperately hope we have a better choice next time but if its Trump Biden, I'll vote for the senile old liar over the racist old liar. I'm not going to be happy about it and I have sympathy for folks making a different choice.

I don't think anyone here voted for Biden because of that, that's not why I voted for him, so I can accept that lots of Trump voters voted for Trump despite of his flaws rather than because of them. If you ask them, that's what most say, it was mostly about judges and dislike of Clinton.

There is decent research on how to change peoples minds, the first step is making them see you as being on their side. Generally that's my goal, I realize that's not the case with everyone.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Minds-Cha.../dp/0593190297
Great book.

Last edited by ahhell; 10th February 2023 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:49 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I have never said republicans can't be racist. I've said, not all republicans are racist and my main point is that just yelling racist at them will not help your cause, especially when you are clearly wrong or lying about it. Granted, you aren't always wrong, Trump was either a racist or willing to pander to racist, doesn't really matter. Even then, voting for a racist doesn't make you a racist. In two party system it means you had two bad choices. Which, right up to the 2016 election it was pretty clear that's how most republicans felt. After that, various cognitive biases kicked in and they began justifying their choice. You guys make that easy for them.
How did Trump get on the ballot. Did the republicans not choose among them selves?

Being in a party that choose a racist to be the standard bearer for the party, and going on to elevate that racist to the highest office in the country (the world even) is so little a difference from being a racist yourself that it hardly matters.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:56 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It makes you racist if the other choice doesn't do anything that bad. if your given a choice between racist and someone with spinach in their teeth and you do a big show of "OH MY LORDY TWO BAD CHOICES, GUESS I HAVE TO GO WITH THE RACIST" then yes you are 100% racist.

You're hiding behind the "Both sides are bad" copout and pretending like both sides are equally bad is anywhere near a sane read of things. You're looking a sponge and the Pacific Ocean and going "Yep, both wet. No difference between the two."

What sins have the Democrats committed that makes them worse than racism? Provide examples. Real ones. Explain your judgement calls as to what the Democrats have done that have just given nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooo choice but to cuddle up to the Right. I dare you.

I will not get answer, but I'd like one.

And to be clear, stuff that actually happened, not lies you made up, or lies other people made up and told you to believe.

Again you couldn't be doing what we are saying you are doing any harder if you tried. You've turned into the skid "Oh I hate voting Republican I surely, but the Democrats don't leave me any choice" nonsense.
Try some empathy, maybe they don't see the racism as clearly as you or to the extent that you do, maybe they don't see it as extremely as you.

The thing is, both sides are bad, one side just isn't as bad as the other. They see the one side as not quite as bad as you see and the other as a little worse than you see it.

You keep framing things as this stark clear choice, maybe it is to you, it isn't as clear to everyone. not everyone is as certain as you.
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Old 10th February 2023, 12:58 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Try some empathy, maybe they don't see the racism as clearly as you or to the extent that you do, maybe they don't see it as extremely as you.

The thing is, both sides are bad, one side just isn't as bad as the other. They see the one side as not quite as bad as you see and the other as a little worse than you see it.

You keep framing things as this stark clear choice, maybe it is to you, it isn't as clear to everyone. not everyone is as certain as you.
That wasn't an answer.

What have Democrats done that makes you choose the racists over them?

Give me an answer. Not glibness, not a shrug, not a distraction, an answer.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:03 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Try some empathy, maybe they don't see the racism as clearly as you or to the extent that you do, maybe they don't see it as extremely as you.
Marjorie Taylor Greene speaks at white nationalist event

It doesn’t get much more obvious and extreme than that.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:06 PM   #98
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Also I want the record to state we're getting "Can't we all just get along" excuse AFTER 4+ years of "(Eff) Your Feelings Snowflake, LOL Trump Won Get Over It, I'm in Your Head Rent Free."
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:06 PM   #99
wareyin
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'm not the one who introduced the phrase embodying racism.
Yes, you are. Nobody in this thread used it before you did.
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So, its cute that you think I'm the one making racism an unchangeable trait. I'm not the one using a 60 year old photo as evidence that an 80 year old man is racist.See above, evidence that an 80 year man is racist is what he did when he was 14.
Be careful working so hard to miss the point. You might pull a muscle or strain your back.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'm not the one making that claim.I have agreed that he is racist or panders to racist, functionally the same, I'm not the one ignoring things.
Bull ******* ****. You're quite literally the one saying that the only reason he was called a racist was because he is Republican. As, you claim, is the case for every other Republican who has loudly and proudly done racist **** in public.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'm the one saying that people who are happy to vote for a racist are the minority and that's why Dems should stop calling everyone else a racist. Its the boy calling wolf. That's the problem. Its most everyone else in this thread saying that republicans are merely voting for racist. I'm saying they've got a choice between two sides. One has a bunch of racist and the other has a bunch of people that hate republicans and think they are racists too.
See that? Right there? That's where you pretend the racist **** you've already been given didn't happen and they were only called racist because they were Republicans.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Equating appointing someone to one of the most powerful offices in the US government to hiring a black man is BS that anyone can see. Acting like I did that to say Trump isn't racist is BS that anyone can smell.
No, you said that hiring a black man was what proved Bush wasn't racist. Which, again, is a stupid take given that it ignores racist people can and do hire black (or other minorities they hate) people. For Trump, you just ignored all the racist **** he has done in public for the last 40 odd years.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
We have a two party system in the US. Voting for a racist doesn't actually demonstrate that you are a racist, it shows that you think the racist is the least bad option.
In your mind, how far apart is "racist" from "racists are just fine"?

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The thing is, the left voted for a guy who is the second most dishonest presidential candidate in the last 30 years. If he hadn't been preceeded by Trump, we'd all be shocked by his constant stream of BS. He's gross race panderer. He said Romney would put Black People back in chains, if a black person didn't vote for him, they weren't black, and described Georgia's current voting laws as worse than Jim Crow.

Now, y'all will justify those comments in a way very similar to how republicans justify voting for trump.
No, we "justify" those comments by pointing out that you're grossly distorting what was said to the point of just making **** up.


Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
There is decent research on how to change peoples minds, the first step is making them see you as being on their side. Generally that's my goal, I realize that's not the case with everyone.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Minds-Cha.../dp/0593190297
Great book.
If you think all the "waah, how dare you call that guy a racist just because he's been doing racist **** in public for decades??@!" is making us see you as being on our side....well it's not.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:08 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by TokenMac View Post
How did Trump get on the ballot. Did the republicans not choose among them selves?

Being in a party that choose a racist to be the standard bearer for the party, and going on to elevate that racist to the highest office in the country (the world even) is so little a difference from being a racist yourself that it hardly matters.
To be clear there is the Party, the actual elected officials and appartchiks that run the party operations and then there is the electorate. When I say the party, I mean the organization rather than the electorate.

American parties do not have control over who can vote or even run in the primaries, which means they can't actual control who is the nominee.

Voters register in a party when they register to vote, or you can register as unaffiliated. Until recently, only people who have registered in a party, got to vote in their primary to nominate a candidate. Now, in a several states you don't even have to do that. Open primaries mean you can vote for which ever candidate you want regardless of party or in my state, I'm unaffililated so I can vote any primary but only one.

Once Trump took the lead there was literally no way for the Republican Party to keep him from being the candidate. Bernie might have been the Dem nominee if the party elders hadn't convinced everyone but biden to drop out prior to N. Carolina. I don't think Bernie is even a registered Dem. He wasn't until he ran for the presidency anyway.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:14 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Marjorie Taylor Greene speaks at white nationalist event

It doesn’t get much more obvious and extreme than that.
I have to admit, this was a lot easier argument to make prior to 2016 and before McCarthy was in charge.

I think it is fine to villify specific republicans, Trump, Greene, Bobert, etc. The problem I have is that it doesn't actually matter how bad they are. Dems and progressives have for decades acted like every republican was a Greene, which helps get us Greene.

There was a time when David Duke ran for office as a republican and every republican in office and even Trump condemned him. That didn't keep dems from calling them racist with the same vigor as they call trump racist.




To be clear, I'm not saying hey don't call them racist because that's mean to the racists. I'm saying stop calling every republican a racist and/or evil because it only makes things worse. Give them some room to change their mind or vote for a not racist. Even if they are all racists, including me, not all racists are equally bad are they? Actual NAZIs are worse than a guy who just doesn't want to hang out with black people. One of my problems with progressives, is that they don't seem to agree with that.

As it is, you are basically giving them a choice between racists and people that appear to hate them.

And none of the progressive arguments for why Trump voters are necessarily racist addresses how he managed to get more black and hispanic votes than his republican predecessors. Granted, not by a lot but it still needs some explanation other than racism and if a Black man can vote for trump for reasons other than Trumps racism, then maybe a white man could too.

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Old 10th February 2023, 01:25 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I have to admit, this was a lot easier argument to make prior to 2016 and before McCarthy was in charge.

I think it is fine to villify specific republicans, Trump, Greene, Bobert, etc. The problem I have is that it doesn't actually matter how bad they are. Dems and progressives have for decades acted like every republican was a Greene, which helps get us Greene.

There was a time when David Duke ran for office as a republican and every republican in office and even Trump condemned him. That didn't keep dems from calling them racist with the same vigor as they call trump racist.
Which Republicans have condemned Marjorie Taylor Greene and Paul Gosar for their association with white nationalist organizations? And how have they been condemned? Both are in good standing within their caucus and have been given committee assignments by unanimous vote from House GOP leadership.

So please, walk me through the consequences they’ve faced from the Republican Party for being openly racist.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:26 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
To be clear there is the Party, the actual elected officials and appartchiks that run the party operations and then there is the electorate. When I say the party, I mean the organization rather than the electorate.

American parties do not have control over who can vote or even run in the primaries, which means they can't actual control who is the nominee.
So we should blame the Republican voters for choosing racists to represent them on the ballot? But you've been saying previously that they only picked the racist guy because he was the "least bad", now you're also saying they picked the racist guy out of all the other Republican choices, too? Seems like they didn't just think the racist guy was the "least bad" out of Clinton/Trump or Biden/Trump then.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Voters register in a party when they register to vote, or you can register as unaffiliated. Until recently, only people who have registered in a party, got to vote in their primary to nominate a candidate. Now, in a several states you don't even have to do that. Open primaries mean you can vote for which ever candidate you want regardless of party or in my state, I'm unaffililated so I can vote any primary but only one.
Every state has their own election process. Your history lesson only applies to your understanding of your one state.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Once Trump took the lead there was literally no way for the Republican Party to keep him from being the candidate. Bernie might have been the Dem nominee if the party elders hadn't convinced everyone but biden to drop out prior to N. Carolina. I don't think Bernie is even a registered Dem. He wasn't until he ran for the presidency anyway.
Bernie registered as a Dem to run against Clinton, then deregistered when he lost. He then reregistered as a Dem to run against Biden but performed much worse than when he previously had failed, so he re-deregistered and is now an independent again. Bernie "might have been the Dem nominee" had people voted for him, but as usual he never came close to winning.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:34 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I think it is fine to villify specific republicans, Trump, Greene, Bobert, etc. The problem I have is that it doesn't actually matter how bad they are. Dems and progressives have for decades acted like every republican was a Greene, which helps get us Greene.
You know this is what JoeMorgue keeps pointing out your argument is, right? The Dems are to blame for the racists in the Republican party.
If only those mean old Dems hadn't pointed/called out the racist things Republicans did we wouldn't have racists in the Republican party.
Republicans didn't want to keep on electing racists, they just had to because Dems called the racists racists.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:36 PM   #105
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I've asked the question clearly 3 times now.

What EXACTLY have the Democrats done to "drive you" to the Republican?

At this point not getting an answer is the only answer we really need to hear.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:36 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by TokenMac View Post
I noticed of your examples of non-racist republicans only one is holding public office, one has never been elected as far as I know, one hasn't been very active in politics for over a decade, and one is dead.
And both Shrubs were involved in governments which ran really racist policies. It's not really useful being non-racist yourself when you're just going to run with a racist group and not try to change them.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:42 PM   #107
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I’m just curious, but why aren’t republicans voting for democratic candidates who are much more fiscally conservative, and only a tiny bit more socially liberal than any republicans who have run in at least thirty years?

The answer is either severe mental problems or that the tiny bit of wiggle room given to minorities really annoys them.

Can a Republican explain why they have abandoned fiscal conservatism and the free market for a party that espouses socialist protectionism and removes the free flow of labor?
Is the tiny bit of acceptance of minorities that a majority of elected democrats accept only with clenched teeth the deciding factor?

If not, what?
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:44 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
For context.

I'm told that if Reps don't elect people that embody racism, then folks will stop calling them racist.
More or less. I'm glad you acknowledge that the Republican party keeps running candidates who embody racism.

Quote:
I suggest that appointing someone who is Black to one of the most powerful positions in the country implies you don't embody racism and that didn't stop lefties from calling them racists.
If you hire your one black friend, irrespective of him being horrendously unqualified, to that position specifically to say "I can't be racist, I hired a black guy", still racist.

Quote:
You respond with, hiring a black man doesn't mean you aren't racist.
Because it doesn't.

Quote:
I can't read the whole article, pay wall, but your evidence seems to that Jerry Jones was a racist when he was 14.
He currently makes his money bringing in the biggest, strongest, black guys to labor for his profit.

Quote:
This illustrates a lot actually.
Likewise

Quote:
A. All forms of racism are equally bad. Voting for a guy who is racist despite no clear evidence other than his being a Republican is the same as voting for an obvious racist.
The candidate in question may not explicitly racist, but it doesn't seem to they associate with.

Quote:
B. There is no way to demonstrate you aren't a racist.
Not really, but then again, folks who constantly cry about being called racist might want to ask themselves why that is.

Quote:
C. There is no redemption for former racists.
Sure there is. It is just that the person seeking redemption doesn't get to decide when they are redeemed.

Quote:
And you guys can't figure out why they won't vote for Dems.
No, it seems we've got it nailed down pretty tightly.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:45 PM   #109
ahhell
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Which Republicans have condemned Marjorie Taylor Greene and Paul Gosar for their association with white nationalist organizations? And how have they been condemned? Both are in good standing within their caucus and have been given committee assignments by unanimous vote from House GOP leadership.

So please, walk me through the consequences they’ve faced from the Republican Party for being openly racist.
Go back read the stuff about cognitive biases. He ran in a crowded field against a bunch of standard GOP polls with an GOP voters that hate their leadership almost as much or even more than the Dems. In the early primaries he was winning with 30ish percent than as folks dropped out, voters do what they alwasy do, they line up behind the front runner.

As I said, there was a time when the GOP would have taken a stand against the loon crowd. They took a stand against David Duke and they were still called racist.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
So we should blame the Republican voters for choosing racists to represent them on the ballot? But you've been saying previously that they only picked the racist guy because he was the "least bad", now you're also saying they picked the racist guy out of all the other Republican choices, too? Seems like they didn't just think the racist guy was the "least bad" out of Clinton/Trump or Biden/Trump then.

Every state has their own election process. Your history lesson only applies to your understanding of your one state.
It was vague enough to be broadly true. Almost no states have caucuses anymore, the candidates are not chosen at the convention anymore. They are mostly chosen through the primaries and parties can't actually keep people from running in the primaries or control who can register in the party. Please let me know what states that doesn't apply too?

Quote:

Bernie registered as a Dem to run against Clinton, then deregistered when he lost. He then reregistered as a Dem to run against Biden but performed much worse than when he previously had failed, so he re-deregistered and is now an independent again. Bernie "might have been the Dem nominee" had people voted for him, but as usual he never came close to winning.
Seems legit. Do you think the Dems would have let Bernie run in their primary if they could have kept him out? I don't. Regardless, I'm pretty sure most foriegners don't understand that someone like Bernie could register as a democrat and then run for the presidency as a democrat without the party leadership going along with it. That couldn't really happen in most democracies as the parties themselves get to say who gets to run under their banner. I don't know of any other democracy that has anything like our primary system.

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Old 10th February 2023, 01:49 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Try some empathy, maybe they don't see the racism as clearly as you or to the extent that you do, maybe they don't see it as extremely as you.

The thing is, both sides are bad, one side just isn't as bad as the other. They see the one side as not quite as bad as you see and the other as a little worse than you see it.

You keep framing things as this stark clear choice, maybe it is to you, it isn't as clear to everyone. not everyone is as certain as you.
At what point does "it isn't clear" turn into wilful ignorance and is wilful ignorance a valid excuse for terrible beliefs and actions?

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I have to admit, this was a lot easier argument to make prior to 2016 and before McCarthy was in charge.

I think it is fine to villify specific republicans, Trump, Greene, Bobert, etc. The problem I have is that it doesn't actually matter how bad they are. Dems and progressives have for decades acted like every republican was a Greene, which helps get us Greene.

There was a time when David Duke ran for office as a republican and every republican in office and even Trump condemned him. That didn't keep dems from calling them racist with the same vigor as they call trump racist.

To be clear, I'm not saying hey don't call them racist because that's mean to the racists. I'm saying stop calling every republican a racist and/or evil because it only makes things worse. Give them some room to change their mind or vote for a not racist. Even if they are all racists, including me, not all racists are equally bad are they? Actual NAZIs are worse than a guy who just doesn't want to hang out with black people. One of my problems with progressives, is that they don't seem to agree with that.

As it is, you are basically giving them a choice between racists and people that appear to hate them.

And none of the progressive arguments for why Trump voters are necessarily racist addresses how he managed to get more black and hispanic votes than his republican predecessors. Granted, not by a lot but it still needs some explanation other than racism and if a Black man can vote for trump for reasons other than Trumps racism, then maybe a white man could too.
Republicans weren't much different prior to 2016. Before they would still say and do racist things and promote racist laws. They just didn't do it so obviously and publicly. They tried harder to pretend for appearances sake. Now there are very few Republican legislators who will speak out publicly against the insanity of their party and those who do are often primaried or just not running for reelection. As seen from hot mics and leaks, there may be many Republican legislators who will admit to each other or behind closed doors that "republican politician X is a disgrace", or "our policy X or vote Y is the dumbest thing I've ever seen" but that doesn't mean **** when they still go along with the party and votes.
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:50 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Go back read the stuff about cognitive biases. He ran in a crowded field against a bunch of standard GOP polls with an GOP voters that hate their leadership almost as much or even more than the Dems. In the early primaries he was winning with 30ish percent than as folks dropped out, voters do what they alwasy do, they line up behind the front runner.

As I said, there was a time when the GOP would have taken a stand against the loon crowd. They took a stand against David Duke and they were still called racist.
Your argument seems to be that it wasn’t fair to call an organization racist before it became openly racist. Fair game now, but before, it was mean. Does that about sum it up?
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:52 PM   #112
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This is now the 4th time I've asked this.

Please provide an example of what the Democrats did that forced you to vote Republican.

Since this is the entire, up and down, back to forth, side to side complete scope of your argument asking for this information hardly seems unreasonable.

Your entire argument cannot be "The Democrats drove me to vote for the Republicans, but I recall what any of those reasons were."
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Old 10th February 2023, 01:57 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
If you want a less racist america, maybe try to actually listen to what I'm saying, otherwise keep on keepin on.
What you are saying is that Republican voters have chosen the racist candidates no matter what the party elite wanted. What you are also saying is that we can't blame the Republican voters for then electing those racist candidates into power because the racist they specifically chose was the "least bad". Seems like you want to say the Republican voters have the power to pick the Republicans who represent them, but can't be blamed for who they pick.

And also there's that whole bit about how it's the Dems fault that Republicans keep on electing racists because the mean old Dems pointed out the guy in the Klan hood was a racist, so the Republican voters then had absolutely no choice but to find someone worse.

At what point does the "party of personal responsibility" begin to bear responsibility for their own actions? Never? It's always those mean old Dems fault for forcing poor innocent Rep voters to choose the racists in the primaries and then choose them again in the general elections?

And I see that you edited this line out, but screw it, I'm responding to it anyway.
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Old 10th February 2023, 02:05 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Your argument seems to be that it wasn’t fair to call an organization racist before it became openly racist. Fair game now, but before, it was mean. Does that about sum it up?
No, my argument is that progressive call everyone who disagrees with them racists and takes voting against them as racist. There is literally no evidence that they will accept that somebody or something isn't racist. It has been that way for at least 40 years.

If a republican did or said something that could be construed as racist 40 years ago, he's a racist. If a dem wore black face in college, no problem.

Its a lie when progressives say, stop being racist and I'll stop calling you racist. It actually doesn't matter what conservatives and republicans do, being conservative or a republican is evidence of guilt.

And I'm not talking about fairness, I'm talking about practical reality. If you want to convince people of something just calling them names no matter how true won't do it, especially when those names are equally valid in all cases.

Again, look at this thread. I say progressive call all republicans racist with equal vitiriol regardless of the evidence or degree and response is, well the Bushes precided over racist policies. Ok, polices that weren't precided over by Clinton? And so they're just as bad as Trump?

Progressives in this thread are bascially doing the opposite of the principal of charity.
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Old 10th February 2023, 02:09 PM   #115
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This is now the 5th time I've asked this.

Please provide an example of what the Democrats did that forced you to vote Republican.
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Old 10th February 2023, 02:09 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Disagreeing with you doesn't mean someone is a racist, unless its literally whether one race is worse than another. Keeping acting like it and the dems will keep losing elections.

One of the many ways in which Progressives are wrong, acting like an explanation is a moral position. I'm not defending republicans for voting for Trump, I'm explaining it.

Now I'll have to figure out why progressives see everything as a moral question and lack any ability to see nuance. Maybe if I can do that I can better frame my arguments to actually convince them to change their tactics.
In that last paragraph, first sentence, substitute "conservatives" for "progressives" and you'll be hitting closer to the truth.

Where's the nuance in how the Right deals with the LGBTQ community, abortion, drag, "woke"? I get the mental image of a jackboot on a neck.
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Old 10th February 2023, 02:33 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
In that last paragraph, first sentence, substitute "conservatives" for "progressives" and you'll be hitting closer to the truth.

Where's the nuance in how the Right deals with the LGBTQ community, abortion, drag, "woke"? I get the mental image of a jackboot on a neck.
"It's only wrong when a Democrat/Liberal/Progressive does it."

Though I am enjoying the conservative argument that they can't prevent racists and bigots from joining the GOP: "Welp, you ran under our banner, and have proven yourself to be an utterly horrible human being.. Here's your committee assignments."
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Old 10th February 2023, 02:35 PM   #118
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It's insulting that we're being expected to believe that the Grand Old Party has less control over the use of it's IP then your average second rate Youtube Channel.
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Old 10th February 2023, 02:45 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Oh, they have an explanation for that one--racism. You see, after two consecutive times voting for Obama, the racists suddenly realized that they had been voting for a ******.

Seriously, this is the sort of stuff they have to believe in order to preserve their worldview.
Dem, GOP and Indie racists did not vote for Obama.
Dem, GOP and Indie racists did vote for Trump.
Not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist, but those who were racist did.
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Old 10th February 2023, 02:46 PM   #120
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All this palaver over GQP supporters getting their knickers in a twist when having their feet held to the fire over electing racists is rich. That same bunch who believe Libs are pedophiles who conduct child sacrifices and drink their blood. Or at least are all groomers.

To this outside observer, the downfall of America, if it comes to Civil War 2.0, is being pushed along by RW media, fundamentally. A very dangerous, practically impenetrable disinformation bubble has been constructed, wherein lies and conspiratorial nonsense flourish. The civil truce formerly observed by the opposing political sides is approaching rupture.

Freedom means having the freedom to incite a nation against itself. Yay freedom. I guess?
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