Neo-Nazi homeschoolers could get taxpayer funds under GOP-backed bill

shemp · 14th March 2023, 06:16 AM

Neo-Nazi homeschoolers could get taxpayer funds under GOP-backed bill

Quote:

Ohio Republicans could steer up to $22,000 in public money to a neo-Nazi homeschooling couple that offers a white nationalist curriculum.

House Bill 11 would provide up to $1.1 billion in state funding for homeschooled children and students at non-chartered private schools, which means Katja and Logan Lawrence, who operate the Dissident Homeschool Network channel on Telegram, could get taxpayer money for spreading neo-Nazi propaganda to children, reported Vice News.

Quote:

The bill could not include any new oversight over homeschooling regulations, which are so lenient that the Department of Education determined the Lawrences weren't breaking any rules by pledging to teach children to “become wonderful Nazis.”

RolandRat · 14th March 2023, 06:28 AM

Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them.

I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them.

JoeMorgue · 14th March 2023, 06:35 AM

Even ignoring the "LOL why are Nazis a problem" thing which is too much for me to unpack, we all know damn well this is the first step to Republicans eventually going "Why have public schools at all?"

Foster Zygote · 14th March 2023, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Even ignoring the "LOL why are Nazis a problem" thing which is too much for me to unpack, we all know damn well this is the first step to Republicans eventually going "Why have public schools at all?"

That was my first concern as well. The statistics are clear - the higher someone's education level, the less likely they are to vote Republican.

RolandRat · 14th March 2023, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Even ignoring the "LOL why are Nazis a problem" thing which is too much for me to unpack, we all know damn well this is the first step to Republicans eventually going "Why have public schools at all?"

We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife.

JoeMorgue · 14th March 2023, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife.

No.

Everytime the Republicans do this we act like we can "gotcha" them.

They will ban Muslim home schools and not think twice about the hypocrisy.

JoeMorgue · 14th March 2023, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

That was my first concern as well. The statistics are clear - the higher someone's education level, the less likely they are to vote Republican.

"Why have a government at all?" is the end goal of every Republican argument because it puts the power back in religious institutions and traditional family structures where they have power.

Darat · 14th March 2023, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Why have a government at all that constrains me or provides any services I don't want nor use?" is the end goal of every Republican argument because it puts the power back in religious institutions and traditional family structures where they have power.

FTFY.

Government by the people for the other people!

Donal · 14th March 2023, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

No.

Everytime the Republicans do this we act like we can "gotcha" them.

They will ban Muslim home schools and not think twice about the hypocrisy.

They won't even try to dress it up in legalese. They know that even if someone has the time and money to sue, even if 90% of their constituents are opposed to it, they have the courts on their side and they can easily distract their voters.

bruto · 14th March 2023, 08:14 AM

I would not automatically object to a law that peripherally allows someone to do something bad, except that in this case I can't trust the legislators not to be doing it exactly in order to allow it, and as other suggest, to open the door to abolishing public education in favor of some bizarre educational block grant.

The Don · 14th March 2023, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

I would not automatically object to a law that peripherally allows someone to do something bad, except that in this case I can't trust the legislators not to be doing it exactly in order to allow it, and as other suggest, to open the door to abolishing public education in favor of some bizarre educational block grant.

That's the key to it. Good education is one of the cornerstones of wealth and social mobility, something which Conservatives are wary of.

Much better to gut public education so that the rich and/or the most engaged can set up islands of education on the public dime whilst the great unwashed are left to their own devices leaving a convenient underclass.

Skeptic Ginger · 14th March 2023, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them.

I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them.

Like teaching Satanism? Bet that would get someone's attention.

Skeptic Ginger · 14th March 2023, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife.

Exactly!

Brainster · 14th March 2023, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife.

Drag Queen homeschooling!

JoeMorgue · 14th March 2023, 10:54 AM

Again, no. The Republicans will have zero problem or moral qualm with enforcing "No you weren't listening I obviously only meant MY home schooling."

We will never trap Republicans in a complicated web of somehow getting their actions to backfire on them because that only works on people who have a sense of morality or shame.

Stacyhs · 14th March 2023, 11:43 AM

We have public schools available for all. If someone wants to home school, let them do it on their own dime. That's their responsibility, not the taxpayers. The only time they should receive taxpayers' money is if they have no choice due to extenuating circumstances such as a child's health that the school system cannot provide for. Same goes for any religion based schools.

Bob001 · 14th March 2023, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them.

I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them.

It might be difficult to regulate homeschooling generally, but to receive public money you could certainly require homeschoolers to teach a standard curriculum, just as public and charter schools do. Nazi hate would not be on the lesson plan.

JoeMorgue · 14th March 2023, 01:43 PM

Yeah if we pretend for a second that the entire concept of home schooling in America only exists because wrong people don't want their children exposes to facts, sure.

Home Schoolers aren't going to follow a lesson plan.

Bob001 · 14th March 2023, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Yeah if we pretend for a second that the entire concept of home schooling in America only exists because wrong people don't want their children exposes to facts, sure.

Home Schoolers aren't going to follow a lesson plan.

Then they don't get tax money.

bruto · 14th March 2023, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

It might be difficult to regulate homeschooling generally, but to receive public money you could certainly require homeschoolers to teach a standard curriculum, just as public and charter schools do. Nazi hate would not be on the lesson plan.

You might be able (as is already done in some places and some ways I think) to set minimum standards for what must be taught, but you simply cannot regulate what can not be taught. The government can set minimum test standards and make sure that by this or that age you can read and do long division and remember what big events happened at what time, but nothing regulates added beliefs, and the very principle of freedom of religion and speech means they can't disqualify you if you also believe white people should send others to prison, or that Cain and Abel rode to school on dinosaurs. If you know the basic science there's no control if you also believe it's all a lie.

Gulliver Foyle · 14th March 2023, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them.

I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them.

And that is why having an absolutist attitude to freedom of speech is ducking nuts. There is no way that anybody who espouses an ideology as abhorrent and as anti-humanity as nazism should have access to the public sphere to air their evil.

Norman Alexander · 14th March 2023, 03:52 PM

They can get the money. But it's only for their own children, because it's HOME schooling, not me-and-all-my-Nazi-friends schooling. As soon as they start dissemination to anyone else, such as via Telegram, etc., then they are effectively "public" schooling. So the moment they go that way then stop the funding and demand it all be paid back.

dudalb · 14th March 2023, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We have public schools available for all. If someone wants to home school, let them do it on their own dime. That's their responsibility, not the taxpayers. The only time they should receive taxpayers' money is if they have no choice due to extenuating circumstances such as a child's health that the school system cannot provide for. Same goes for any religion based schools.

I have to disagree; I am not dead set against things like charter schools.
;

dudalb · 14th March 2023, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

And that is why having an absolutist attitude to freedom of speech is ducking nuts. There is no way that anybody who espouses an ideology as abhorrent and as anti-humanity as nazism should have access to the public sphere to air their evil.

Problem is the old who wil watch the watchers.
As much as I despise the neo Nazis, trying to shut them up is not the way to go.

Carlotta · 14th March 2023, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Drag Queen homeschooling!

Far preferable to Nazi homeschooling. No, I'm not kidding in the least.

Darat · 14th March 2023, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Problem is the old who wil watch the watchers.
As much as I despise the neo Nazis, trying to shut them up is not the way to go.

That problem was solved a long time ago, we do.

And there is no rational reason to allow people to incite and promote the most extreme violence against their fellow citizens. Remember a neo Nazi aka a Nazi wishes to kill all the Jews in your country, wants to kill all those kids with Down's syndrome, kill all those kids with autism, as well as the likes of homosexuals.

bruto · 14th March 2023, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

They can get the money. But it's only for their own children, because it's HOME schooling, not me-and-all-my-Nazi-friends schooling. As soon as they start dissemination to anyone else, such as via Telegram, etc., then they are effectively "public" schooling. So the moment they go that way then stop the funding and demand it all be paid back.

Alas, I don't think that is always the case. Home schoolers often enjoy joint learning with other home schoolers, and even participation in some community school events and services (like school libraries, story hours and the like). And nothing stops home schooling families from getting together with like minded families in between sessions, whose hours and schedules they are, being home schoolers, free to set. They can disseminate all they want. Do you think the fundy bible thumping baptist home schoolers aren't allowed to go to the same churches and the same Sunday schools?

dudalb · 14th March 2023, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

That problem was solved a long time ago, we do.

And there is no rational reason to allow people to incite and promote the most extreme violence against their fellow citizens. Remember a neo Nazi aka a Nazi wishes to kill all the Jews in your country, wants to kill all those kids with Down's syndrome, kill all those kids with autism, as well as the likes of homosexuals.

I just don't share your boundless trust in governments doing the right thing.

Stacyhs · 14th March 2023, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I have to disagree; I am not dead set against things like charter schools.
;

Charter schools are public schools, so not included in the religion based schools or homeschooling. Their mission statement must include the proposed curriculum, management structure, finances, ertc. and must be approved by the local school district or authorized government agency. I have no problem with charter schools.

Norman Alexander · 14th March 2023, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

Alas, I don't think that is always the case. Home schoolers often enjoy joint learning with other home schoolers, and even participation in some community school events and services (like school libraries, story hours and the like). And nothing stops home schooling families from getting together with like minded families in between sessions, whose hours and schedules they are, being home schoolers, free to set. They can disseminate all they want. Do you think the fundy bible thumping baptist home schoolers aren't allowed to go to the same churches and the same Sunday schools?

Then they should not be getting home schooling assistance. What you are describing is not home schooling. It's community schooling.

bruto · 14th March 2023, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Then they should not be getting home schooling assistance. What you are describing is not home schooling. It's community schooling.

I'm not arguing about what should or should not be the case, but home schooling need not mean utter isolation. Ideally, one might home school because your child has special needs or gifts which are not adequately answered by available schools, or because you differ greatly in opinion with that espoused by available schools. But that does not mean you must, or should, isolate your kid from social contact with peers. And if your reasons for home schooling are good, that's a good thing. If they're bad, it probably is not.

You cannot control what publicly schooled kids do after school is out or on the weekends either, and you certainly can't control what churches they may attend, or who their friends or their parents' friends are. The kids who are home schooled because their parents are flaming conspiracy fed religious nutcases (or Nazis, or both) will make their associations and connections no matter whether they manage to squeak by the state tests and standards, and no matter how well they follow the minimal rules of schooling conduct while it's happening. Like it or not, if you allow home schooling, one of the consequences will be the enabling of those who reject public education for fanatical reasons.

e.t.a. I do quite agree that those folks should not be getting home schooling assistance. I think we're both agreed that the bill in question is rotten. I am just saying that home schooling does not become community schooling just because a child enjoys a community outside of classroom time.

Norman Alexander · 14th March 2023, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

I'm not arguing about what should or should not be the case, but home schooling need not mean utter isolation. Ideally, one might home school because your child has special needs or gifts which are not adequately answered by available schools, or because you differ greatly in opinion with that espoused by available schools. But that does not mean you must, or should, isolate your kid from social contact with peers. And if your reasons for home schooling are good, that's a good thing. If they're bad, it probably is not.

You cannot control what publicly schooled kids do after school is out or on the weekends either, and you certainly can't control what churches they may attend, or who their friends or their parents' friends are. The kids who are home schooled because their parents are flaming conspiracy fed religious nutcases (or Nazis, or both) will make their associations and connections no matter whether they manage to squeak by the state tests and standards, and no matter how well they follow the minimal rules of schooling conduct while it's happening. Like it or not, if you allow home schooling, one of the consequences will be the enabling of those who reject public education for fanatical reasons.

I never mentioned anything about isolation. It's about who schools the children and where. If they meet and group together to be schooled, at church, ashram, madrasah, coven, Hitlerjugend Headquarters or over Telegram, that's community schooling, not home schooling. And so should not be financed with "home schooling" funding. If the said community wish to finance that kind of education themselves independently, that's fine by me.

bruto · 14th March 2023, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

I never mentioned anything about isolation. It's about who schools the children and where. If they meet and group together to be schooled, at church, ashram, madrasah, coven, Hitlerjugend Headquarters or over Telegram, that's community schooling, not home schooling. And so should not be financed with "home schooling" funding. If the said community wish to finance that kind of education themselves independently, that's fine by me.

I agree that community group schooling is not home schooling, and it certainly should not be funded, if even permitted without school licensing. I'm just saying that I don't think it will do anything to prevent ganging together of groups, mutual indoctrination, and so forth, if that's what parents want to do. The school day is not all day and one of the advantages of home schooling is flexible hours, and a relative lack of supervision, and a certain amount of freedom with regard to who is brought in to help with the schooling (like maybe the local sturmbahnfuhrer just happens to be a soccer coach). Certain community activities, such as library time and even sports, may be made available to home schooled children too. Home schoolers have to pass certain standards from time to time, but there's very little control over what they do to get there.

I'm all for accommodation and facilitation of home schooling, access to educational materials, etc., but I question whether any of it should be funded.

Darat · 15th March 2023, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I just don't share your boundless trust in governments doing the right thing.

Where do I demonstrate boundless trust in governments doing the right thing?

Horatius · 15th March 2023, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

It might be difficult to regulate homeschooling generally, but to receive public money you could certainly require homeschoolers to teach a standard curriculum, just as public and charter schools do. Nazi hate would not be on the lesson plan.

But that will never happen. I'm pretty sure a large majority of homeschoolers are on the right wing. These "Teach the kids to be Nazis" parents are probably on the extreme, but it's a lock that most of what is being taught in homeschooling is stuff we'd find objectionable.

And that's the whole point. This bill siphons off education money, and predominantly sends it to people allied with the right wing. They can destroy public education at the same time they reward their own constituency for playing along.

JoeMorgue · 15th March 2023, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Then they don't get tax money.

If Republican law makers say they do yes the will.

That's why Republicans have such a hard on for vouchers.

TragicMonkey · 15th March 2023, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

But that will never happen. I'm pretty sure a large majority of homeschoolers are on the right wing. These "Teach the kids to be Nazis" parents are probably on the extreme, but it's a lock that most of what is being taught in homeschooling is stuff we'd find objectionable.

There's a sub-Reddit for survivors of homeschooling. It seems that the main problem is that nothing is being taught, past a certain point. The parents want the kids out of public schools but eventually (or immediately, in some cases) lose ability and interest to teach anything themselves, so the kids just stay home without getting taught anything at all. Then they hit adulthood and have to make up for the lapse. They start the economic race significantly underprepared.

dann · 15th March 2023, 07:08 AM

Well, as long as they learn the important things in life: that woke is bad, and MAGA is good!
They have Trump and Fox to confirm that this is all they really need to know, and they will also keep them up to date about new details.

JoeMorgue · 15th March 2023, 07:20 AM

And this leads us back to a huge elephant in the room about public education, that it now exists as a safety net against indoctrination and extreme societal isolation as much or more than it does for education.

More so then learning public schools make sure that no child grows up totally ignorant of the idea that what mother and father and the church tell them is the only ideas out there.

Republicans, for obvious reasons, are terrified of that.

bruto · 15th March 2023, 08:05 AM

The salubrious effect of public education is weak enough as it is, as we can see from many of the advocates of its abolition - products of that very system who want to do away with it not because it isn't good enough but because it isn't bad enough. A large part of public education is aimed toward producing a populace that is compliant and conforming, but at least it conforms to something resembling normal humanity rather than the lunatic fringe.

I think some here have not taken into account the historical evidence that it's already possible enough to be a scholar and to wind through the educational system, even with distinction, and still to end up a deluded fool. Laws that facilitate this are not our friend.

14th March 2023, 06:16 AM	#1
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War Posts: 53,808	Neo-Nazi homeschoolers could get taxpayer funds under GOP-backed bill Neo-Nazi homeschoolers could get taxpayer funds under GOP-backed bill Quote: Ohio Republicans could steer up to $22,000 in public money to a neo-Nazi homeschooling couple that offers a white nationalist curriculum. House Bill 11 would provide up to $1.1 billion in state funding for homeschooled children and students at non-chartered private schools, which means Katja and Logan Lawrence, who operate the Dissident Homeschool Network channel on Telegram, could get taxpayer money for spreading neo-Nazi propaganda to children, reported Vice News. Quote: The bill could not include any new oversight over homeschooling regulations, which are so lenient that the Department of Education determined the Lawrences weren't breaking any rules by pledging to teach children to “become wonderful Nazis.”
	__________________ "Yes, I'll be around for many more centuries. You, meanwhile, will have long ago been turned into value dog food, despite your express wishes to the contrary." -- JihadJane

14th March 2023, 06:35 AM	#3
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Even ignoring the "LOL why are Nazis a problem" thing which is too much for me to unpack, we all know damn well this is the first step to Republicans eventually going "Why have public schools at all?"
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

14th March 2023, 06:49 AM	#4
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 20,507	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Even ignoring the "LOL why are Nazis a problem" thing which is too much for me to unpack, we all know damn well this is the first step to Republicans eventually going "Why have public schools at all?" That was my first concern as well. The statistics are clear - the higher someone's education level, the less likely they are to vote Republican.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

14th March 2023, 06:51 AM	#6
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by RolandRat We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife. No. Everytime the Republicans do this we act like we can "gotcha" them. They will ban Muslim home schools and not think twice about the hypocrisy.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

14th March 2023, 06:52 AM	#7
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote That was my first concern as well. The statistics are clear - the higher someone's education level, the less likely they are to vote Republican. "Why have a government at all?" is the end goal of every Republican argument because it puts the power back in religious institutions and traditional family structures where they have power.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 14th March 2023 at 06:58 AM.

14th March 2023, 06:28 AM	#2
RolandRat Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Essex UK Posts: 1,600	Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them. I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them.

14th March 2023, 06:50 AM	#5
RolandRat Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Essex UK Posts: 1,600	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Even ignoring the "LOL why are Nazis a problem" thing which is too much for me to unpack, we all know damn well this is the first step to Republicans eventually going "Why have public schools at all?" We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife.

14th March 2023, 07:01 AM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "Why have a government at all that constrains me or provides any services I don't want nor use?" is the end goal of every Republican argument because it puts the power back in religious institutions and traditional family structures where they have power. FTFY. Government by the people for the other people!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

14th March 2023, 08:03 AM	#9
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,293	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue No. Everytime the Republicans do this we act like we can "gotcha" them. They will ban Muslim home schools and not think twice about the hypocrisy. They won't even try to dress it up in legalese. They know that even if someone has the time and money to sue, even if 90% of their constituents are opposed to it, they have the courts on their side and they can easily distract their voters.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,293	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

14th March 2023, 08:14 AM	#10
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,262	I would not automatically object to a law that peripherally allows someone to do something bad, except that in this case I can't trust the legislators not to be doing it exactly in order to allow it, and as other suggest, to open the door to abolishing public education in favor of some bizarre educational block grant.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

14th March 2023, 09:31 AM	#11
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,371	Originally Posted by bruto I would not automatically object to a law that peripherally allows someone to do something bad, except that in this case I can't trust the legislators not to be doing it exactly in order to allow it, and as other suggest, to open the door to abolishing public education in favor of some bizarre educational block grant. That's the key to it. Good education is one of the cornerstones of wealth and social mobility, something which Conservatives are wary of. Much better to gut public education so that the rich and/or the most engaged can set up islands of education on the public dime whilst the great unwashed are left to their own devices leaving a convenient underclass.

14th March 2023, 10:02 AM	#12
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 93,401	Originally Posted by RolandRat Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them. I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them. Like teaching Satanism? Bet that would get someone's attention.

14th March 2023, 10:03 AM	#13
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 93,401	Originally Posted by RolandRat We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife. Exactly!

14th March 2023, 10:46 AM	#14
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 19,708	Originally Posted by RolandRat We'll see how fast the law gets changed when a Muslim group applies for cash with a curriculum based on how to earn your own 72 virgins in the afterlife. Drag Queen homeschooling!
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

14th March 2023, 10:54 AM	#15
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Again, no. The Republicans will have zero problem or moral qualm with enforcing "No you weren't listening I obviously only meant MY home schooling." We will never trap Republicans in a complicated web of somehow getting their actions to backfire on them because that only works on people who have a sense of morality or shame.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

14th March 2023, 11:43 AM	#16
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 29,387	We have public schools available for all. If someone wants to home school, let them do it on their own dime. That's their responsibility, not the taxpayers. The only time they should receive taxpayers' money is if they have no choice due to extenuating circumstances such as a child's health that the school system cannot provide for. Same goes for any religion based schools.

14th March 2023, 01:36 PM	#17
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,557	Originally Posted by RolandRat Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them. I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them. It might be difficult to regulate homeschooling generally, but to receive public money you could certainly require homeschoolers to teach a standard curriculum, just as public and charter schools do. Nazi hate would not be on the lesson plan.

14th March 2023, 01:43 PM	#18
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Yeah if we pretend for a second that the entire concept of home schooling in America only exists because wrong people don't want their children exposes to facts, sure. Home Schoolers aren't going to follow a lesson plan.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

14th March 2023, 01:45 PM	#19
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,557	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Yeah if we pretend for a second that the entire concept of home schooling in America only exists because wrong people don't want their children exposes to facts, sure. Home Schoolers aren't going to follow a lesson plan. Then they don't get tax money.

14th March 2023, 03:27 PM	#20
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,262	Originally Posted by Bob001 It might be difficult to regulate homeschooling generally, but to receive public money you could certainly require homeschoolers to teach a standard curriculum, just as public and charter schools do. Nazi hate would not be on the lesson plan. You might be able (as is already done in some places and some ways I think) to set minimum standards for what must be taught, but you simply cannot regulate what can not be taught. The government can set minimum test standards and make sure that by this or that age you can read and do long division and remember what big events happened at what time, but nothing regulates added beliefs, and the very principle of freedom of religion and speech means they can't disqualify you if you also believe white people should send others to prison, or that Cain and Abel rode to school on dinosaurs. If you know the basic science there's no control if you also believe it's all a lie.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

14th March 2023, 03:35 PM	#21
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,296	Originally Posted by RolandRat Whilst I find the ideology repugnant, if it isn't illegal under the law, then why not? The article doesn't actually say they are getting the funds, just that they could get them. I've no doubt other weird and wonderful ideologies will take advantage too which will probably lead to the law being revised when the guys in charge realise they can't stop people from backgrounds they don't endorse getting them. And that is why having an absolutist attitude to freedom of speech is ducking nuts. There is no way that anybody who espouses an ideology as abhorrent and as anti-humanity as nazism should have access to the public sphere to air their evil.

14th March 2023, 03:52 PM	#22
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,227	They can get the money. But it's only for their own children, because it's HOME schooling, not me-and-all-my-Nazi-friends schooling. As soon as they start dissemination to anyone else, such as via Telegram, etc., then they are effectively "public" schooling. So the moment they go that way then stop the funding and demand it all be paid back.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 14th March 2023 at 03:55 PM.

14th March 2023, 04:02 PM	#23
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,771	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We have public schools available for all. If someone wants to home school, let them do it on their own dime. That's their responsibility, not the taxpayers. The only time they should receive taxpayers' money is if they have no choice due to extenuating circumstances such as a child's health that the school system cannot provide for. Same goes for any religion based schools. I have to disagree; I am not dead set against things like charter schools. ;
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

14th March 2023, 04:03 PM	#24
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,771	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle And that is why having an absolutist attitude to freedom of speech is ducking nuts. There is no way that anybody who espouses an ideology as abhorrent and as anti-humanity as nazism should have access to the public sphere to air their evil. Problem is the old who wil watch the watchers. As much as I despise the neo Nazis, trying to shut them up is not the way to go.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 14th March 2023 at 04:30 PM.

14th March 2023, 04:17 PM	#25
Carlotta Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 964	Originally Posted by Brainster Drag Queen homeschooling! Far preferable to Nazi homeschooling. No, I'm not kidding in the least.

14th March 2023, 04:37 PM	#26
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by dudalb Problem is the old who wil watch the watchers. As much as I despise the neo Nazis, trying to shut them up is not the way to go. That problem was solved a long time ago, we do. And there is no rational reason to allow people to incite and promote the most extreme violence against their fellow citizens. Remember a neo Nazi aka a Nazi wishes to kill all the Jews in your country, wants to kill all those kids with Down's syndrome, kill all those kids with autism, as well as the likes of homosexuals.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

14th March 2023, 05:21 PM	#27
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,262	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander They can get the money. But it's only for their own children, because it's HOME schooling, not me-and-all-my-Nazi-friends schooling. As soon as they start dissemination to anyone else, such as via Telegram, etc., then they are effectively "public" schooling. So the moment they go that way then stop the funding and demand it all be paid back. Alas, I don't think that is always the case. Home schoolers often enjoy joint learning with other home schoolers, and even participation in some community school events and services (like school libraries, story hours and the like). And nothing stops home schooling families from getting together with like minded families in between sessions, whose hours and schedules they are, being home schoolers, free to set. They can disseminate all they want. Do you think the fundy bible thumping baptist home schoolers aren't allowed to go to the same churches and the same Sunday schools?
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) Last edited by bruto; 14th March 2023 at 05:22 PM.

14th March 2023, 05:44 PM	#28
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,771	Originally Posted by Darat That problem was solved a long time ago, we do. And there is no rational reason to allow people to incite and promote the most extreme violence against their fellow citizens. Remember a neo Nazi aka a Nazi wishes to kill all the Jews in your country, wants to kill all those kids with Down's syndrome, kill all those kids with autism, as well as the likes of homosexuals. I just don't share your boundless trust in governments doing the right thing.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

14th March 2023, 06:58 PM	#29
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 29,387	Originally Posted by dudalb I have to disagree; I am not dead set against things like charter schools. ; Charter schools are public schools, so not included in the religion based schools or homeschooling. Their mission statement must include the proposed curriculum, management structure, finances, ertc. and must be approved by the local school district or authorized government agency. I have no problem with charter schools.

14th March 2023, 07:55 PM	#30
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,227	Originally Posted by bruto Alas, I don't think that is always the case. Home schoolers often enjoy joint learning with other home schoolers, and even participation in some community school events and services (like school libraries, story hours and the like). And nothing stops home schooling families from getting together with like minded families in between sessions, whose hours and schedules they are, being home schoolers, free to set. They can disseminate all they want. Do you think the fundy bible thumping baptist home schoolers aren't allowed to go to the same churches and the same Sunday schools? Then they should not be getting home schooling assistance. What you are describing is not home schooling. It's community schooling.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

14th March 2023, 08:14 PM	#31
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,262	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Then they should not be getting home schooling assistance. What you are describing is not home schooling. It's community schooling. I'm not arguing about what should or should not be the case, but home schooling need not mean utter isolation. Ideally, one might home school because your child has special needs or gifts which are not adequately answered by available schools, or because you differ greatly in opinion with that espoused by available schools. But that does not mean you must, or should, isolate your kid from social contact with peers. And if your reasons for home schooling are good, that's a good thing. If they're bad, it probably is not. You cannot control what publicly schooled kids do after school is out or on the weekends either, and you certainly can't control what churches they may attend, or who their friends or their parents' friends are. The kids who are home schooled because their parents are flaming conspiracy fed religious nutcases (or Nazis, or both) will make their associations and connections no matter whether they manage to squeak by the state tests and standards, and no matter how well they follow the minimal rules of schooling conduct while it's happening. Like it or not, if you allow home schooling, one of the consequences will be the enabling of those who reject public education for fanatical reasons. e.t.a. I do quite agree that those folks should not be getting home schooling assistance. I think we're both agreed that the bill in question is rotten. I am just saying that home schooling does not become community schooling just because a child enjoys a community outside of classroom time.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) Last edited by bruto; 14th March 2023 at 08:17 PM.

14th March 2023, 08:20 PM	#32
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,227	Originally Posted by bruto I'm not arguing about what should or should not be the case, but home schooling need not mean utter isolation. Ideally, one might home school because your child has special needs or gifts which are not adequately answered by available schools, or because you differ greatly in opinion with that espoused by available schools. But that does not mean you must, or should, isolate your kid from social contact with peers. And if your reasons for home schooling are good, that's a good thing. If they're bad, it probably is not. You cannot control what publicly schooled kids do after school is out or on the weekends either, and you certainly can't control what churches they may attend, or who their friends or their parents' friends are. The kids who are home schooled because their parents are flaming conspiracy fed religious nutcases (or Nazis, or both) will make their associations and connections no matter whether they manage to squeak by the state tests and standards, and no matter how well they follow the minimal rules of schooling conduct while it's happening. Like it or not, if you allow home schooling, one of the consequences will be the enabling of those who reject public education for fanatical reasons. I never mentioned anything about isolation. It's about who schools the children and where. If they meet and group together to be schooled, at church, ashram, madrasah, coven, Hitlerjugend Headquarters or over Telegram, that's community schooling, not home schooling. And so should not be financed with "home schooling" funding. If the said community wish to finance that kind of education themselves independently, that's fine by me.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

14th March 2023, 09:27 PM	#33
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,262	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander I never mentioned anything about isolation. It's about who schools the children and where. If they meet and group together to be schooled, at church, ashram, madrasah, coven, Hitlerjugend Headquarters or over Telegram, that's community schooling, not home schooling. And so should not be financed with "home schooling" funding. If the said community wish to finance that kind of education themselves independently, that's fine by me. I agree that community group schooling is not home schooling, and it certainly should not be funded, if even permitted without school licensing. I'm just saying that I don't think it will do anything to prevent ganging together of groups, mutual indoctrination, and so forth, if that's what parents want to do. The school day is not all day and one of the advantages of home schooling is flexible hours, and a relative lack of supervision, and a certain amount of freedom with regard to who is brought in to help with the schooling (like maybe the local sturmbahnfuhrer just happens to be a soccer coach). Certain community activities, such as library time and even sports, may be made available to home schooled children too. Home schoolers have to pass certain standards from time to time, but there's very little control over what they do to get there. I'm all for accommodation and facilitation of home schooling, access to educational materials, etc., but I question whether any of it should be funded.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

15th March 2023, 12:23 AM	#34
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by dudalb I just don't share your boundless trust in governments doing the right thing. Where do I demonstrate boundless trust in governments doing the right thing?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

15th March 2023, 05:06 AM	#35
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,675	Originally Posted by Bob001 It might be difficult to regulate homeschooling generally, but to receive public money you could certainly require homeschoolers to teach a standard curriculum, just as public and charter schools do. Nazi hate would not be on the lesson plan. But that will never happen. I'm pretty sure a large majority of homeschoolers are on the right wing. These "Teach the kids to be Nazis" parents are probably on the extreme, but it's a lock that most of what is being taught in homeschooling is stuff we'd find objectionable. And that's the whole point. This bill siphons off education money, and predominantly sends it to people allied with the right wing. They can destroy public education at the same time they reward their own constituency for playing along.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd