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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump impeachment

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Old 13th February 2021, 06:24 PM   #2601
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No-one has ever determined if the President can be arrested and charged. The closest is that there was a memo that expressed the opinion that a sitting president could not be charged. Nothing says that an ex-president can't be held criminally liable for what he did while in office.
Yes, and we should not forget, Nixon wasn't tried because he was pardoned. Trump has not and will not be pardoned.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:31 PM   #2602
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump would have been impeached the first time
Just going to point it out, he was Impeached the first time and the second time. He's been Impeached twice. Impeachment is done by the House, the Senate Trial is to determine guilt and consequences, not to confirm Impeachment.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:34 PM   #2603
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, and we should not forget, Nixon wasn't tried because he was pardoned. Trump has not and will not be pardoned.
I suspect that he could have been Impeached as well, but in his case, it would have been totally pointless even though he likely would have been found guilty (hence the resignation) because he'd already quit and since he had already met the "elected to two terms" clause he was no longer eligible to hold the office of President again.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:38 PM   #2604
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, and we should not forget, Nixon wasn't tried because he was pardoned. Trump has not and will not be pardoned.
Until his next term, he'll pardon himself right away. He won't need to worry about how things look any more, as he knows now he can get away with anything.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:43 PM   #2605
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are we done?
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:45 PM   #2606
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I would love to see a big headline with that: GOP Senators rule it's OK to sic a mob on the Capitol if you lose an election.
That ruling only applies to a Republican president, naturally.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:50 PM   #2607
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Just going to point it out, he was Impeached the first time and the second time. He's been Impeached twice. Impeachment is done by the House, the Senate Trial is to determine guilt and consequences, not to confirm Impeachment.
I know, I know.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:53 PM   #2608
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Until his next term, he'll pardon himself right away. He won't need to worry about how things look any more, as he knows now he can get away with anything.
That's 4 years from now and only if Trump is reelected and only if he is deemed able to pardon himself.

That's a lot of ifs. Let's see how criminal charges, if made, pan out.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:17 PM   #2609
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Nope and it was clearly explained why.

Nope. It was because they thought the checks and balances would hold and maybe they still will. We'll have to see come 2022.

I think you are failing to notice the role social media played in enabling a mentally ill POTUS to get elected and to pull that stunt on his way out.

But guess what, cult following or not, he was voted out of office by millions of votes despite that.

You don't seem to grasp that this was the political part. A criminal trial comes next, hopefully. And it is there where we will see how many more of these GOP coconspirators will tone their crap down.


There are two things going forward, one, we need to get rid of gerrymandering and the EC if we want to keep our democracy. That is what allowed this situation to develop much more so than Presidential powers.

And two, we absolutely need to address the social media rabbit holes. I'm pretty sure all those parliamentary systems of government are not a guaranteed match against the cult following social media allowed to develop.

It was almost a perfect storm: A cult leader, social media, and the press that failed to do their job (the same way they failed when they let Bush sell his war) to keep that nonsense in check. In fact, the press fueled the frenzy because it was good for business.

I don't think for a minute the framework of our government was the biggest player here. If Trump hadn't had so many followers among the legislators in Congress this would not have happened. Trump would have been impeached the first time. And, maybe we need a close look at the POTUS owning the DoJ. That is a serious problem because Presidents are too tempted to use the DoJ as their personal enforcement department.
So everything is fine and great. Things are just as they should be, and couldn't be better.

As I said, you Americans have a warped sense of justice.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:36 PM   #2610
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And I'll say it again - if Toupee Fiasco had been born to a father that wasn't wealthy, and wasn't useful for laundering money, he'd have been butchered and deposited in several dumpsters by some crime family back in the 1970s.

Or possibly several trash bags at the bottom of a river. Foundation of a building - you get the idea.
I actually think the person he would be is Jack Ruby only much more cowardly. I could see middle-class Donald talking big and trying to open strip joints that fail. Trying constantly to kiss up to both cops and career criminals but never amounting to enough to be worth the time of either one. Odds are he'd get punched out by a drunk on a monthly basis while moving from one failed venture to another.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:40 PM   #2611
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Commissioner Al Schmidt tweeted

@Commish_Schmidt

@LeaderMcConnell The former POTUS incited supporters to threaten to kill my children and put their “heads on spikes” because we counted votes cast by eligible voters.
They named my children and included my home address in the threats.
Please consider when voting your conscience.
I think that's where the commish went wrong.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:40 PM   #2612
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The Turtle's speech was to Trump, not the public.

He basically said "I got your sorrow son-of-a-bitch POS ass off the hook on a technicality when we all know you are guilty as ****. So your sorrow son-of-a-bitch POS ass now belongs to ME! So shut the **** up, find another ******* career, never run for politics again, and get back in your ******* hole where you belong. Or there will be criminal prosecutions which I can't stop."

But politely, in a Southern accent.
Except Trump has no intent of shutting the **** up.. Trump is already out there gloating about the acquittal. He will be out there soon talking about going after the GOP Congressman and Senators that voted against him.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:43 PM   #2613
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
If anyone’s curious, Senator Hagerty’s response to my letter:
Pro forma letter that says almost nothing except that he buys into the notion that the trial is unconstitutional. Ugh.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:00 PM   #2614
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McConnell knows Trump is guilty as hell. He could have gotten 10 more votes if he really wanted to, but he didn't want to. He wants the GOP together, not split which is what would have happened. That was his motivation for falling back on that sorry "unconstitutional" excuse.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:00 PM   #2615
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Pro forma letter that says almost nothing except that he buys into the notion that the trial is unconstitutional. Ugh.
He never read your letter. Staff member did and sent the form letter reply.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:05 PM   #2616
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
So everything is fine and great. Things are just as they should be, and couldn't be better.

As I said, you Americans have a warped sense of justice.
I'm sorry if that was tl;dr.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th February 2021 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:06 PM   #2617
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
McConnell knows Trump is guilty as hell. He could have gotten 10 more votes if he really wanted to, but he didn't want to. He wants the GOP together, not split which is what would have happened. That was his motivation for falling back on that sorry "unconstitutional" excuse.
Yep, I see it this way too.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:07 PM   #2618
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Pro forma letter that says almost nothing except that he buys into the notion that the trial is unconstitutional. Ugh.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He never read your letter. Staff member did and sent the form letter reply.
Of course. I certainly didn’t mean to imply it was a personal response.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 13th February 2021 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:09 PM   #2619
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He never read your letter. Staff member did and sent the form letter reply.
I think that's standard but your POV gets counted if you are one of their constituents.

I tried to write Pelosi a few years back and despite her being leader of the House, I got a form letter back that Pelosi only took feedback from her constituents. Pissed me off given she had national influence.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:11 PM   #2620
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
McConnell knows Trump is guilty as hell. He could have gotten 10 more votes if he really wanted to, but he didn't want to. He wants the GOP together, not split which is what would have happened. That was his motivation for falling back on that sorry "unconstitutional" excuse.
I don't think he could have.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:13 PM   #2621
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
And in some ways, I agree that this wasn't constitutional. Impeachment is about removal from office.
I'm so tired of this canard. He was impeached while in office. The actual trial happened after he left office because Moscow Mitch decided that was what he wanted.

Also, impeachment and a subsequent trial is about a lot more than removal from office. Everybody and her sister all agree that it is a political process, not a legal one. Thus, one additional purpose is to expose presidential "crimes and misdemeanors" to the voting public, a result far more important than merely losing the job.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:17 PM   #2622
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

I tried to write Pelosi a few years back and despite her being leader of the House, I got a form letter back that Pelosi only took feedback from her constituents. Pissed me off given she had national influence.
I made a feeble attempt to contact Jamie Raskin to encourage him to include witnesses. On his “Contact” page you have to put your zip code to ensure you’re in his district. I could have lied, I guess, but it didn’t seem worth it.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:27 PM   #2623
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He never read your letter. Staff member did and sent the form letter reply.
It wasn't my letter, it was Eddie's but I do agree that staff sent the photocopy reply, threw Eddie's letter away and went out for happy hour(s).
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:56 PM   #2624
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The same issues of years of depositions, uncooperative witnesses, stalking and harassment of trial participants, and all the rest exist for any potential criminal investigations into Trump, security agencies, et al.

Might just be dour about the sudden outcome, but I wonder if anything significant will really happen.

Who was allowed to breach our capitol and why is apparently laundry so dirty, it befouls the detergent.

A bit of the 9/11 NEADS tape comes to mind, where MCC Nasypany is expressing frustration and humiliation, "God dammit, I can’t even protect my NCA (National Capital Authority)."

So if an attack on the area of the capitol is an affront to military honor, then how in the hell did grown men argue for days about "optics" in the face of publicly available "intelligence" of an attack coming, and still keep having that conversation for 3 or 4 more hours while the closest thing to a request for help that seemed to get through were frantic calls made from congressional staffers hiding under furniture calling their old college roommate in the bowels of the Pentagon bureaucracy to try and get anything resembling a respectable show of force from "the most powerful nation on Earth."

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 13th February 2021 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:19 PM   #2625
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
So everything is fine and great. Things are just as they should be, and couldn't be better.

As I said, you Americans have a warped sense of justice.
And I think a lot of the features of the Europoean Palrimantrian System are warped...
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:21 PM   #2626
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He never read your letter. Staff member did and sent the form letter reply.
That is how EVERY Senator does it. Simply no time for them to read every letter that comes in. You need staff to filter out the non essential stuff, and only pass on the important. Sorry, but that is just the way it is..and probably has to be given the volumne of mail a Senator receives.
I suspect it's similiar in the House.
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:23 PM   #2627
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
McConnell knows Trump is guilty as hell. He could have gotten 10 more votes if he really wanted to, but he didn't want to. He wants the GOP together, not split which is what would have happened. That was his motivation for falling back on that sorry "unconstitutional" excuse.
And he very well might still get a split GOP.
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Old 13th February 2021, 09:56 PM   #2628
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It's going to be very awkward returning to work on the 22nd (they have a week recess):

CNN: Hundreds of congressional staffers sign letter to senators urging them to convict Trump
Quote:
Hundreds of congressional staffers wrote an open letter to senators urging them to consider the trauma aides experienced during the deadly insurrection at the US Capitol and to convict former President Donald Trump "for our sake, and the sake of the country."

"We are staff who work for members of the U.S. Senate and the U.S. House of Representatives, where it is our honor and privilege to serve our country and our fellow Americans. We write this letter to share our own views and experiences, not the views of our employers. But on January 6, 2021, our workplace was attacked by a violent mob trying to stop the electoral college vote count. That mob was incited by former president Donald J. Trump and his political allies, some of whom we pass every day in the hallways at work," more than 370 staffers, who are predominantly Democrats, wrote in the letter released Wednesday.....

Signers of the letter come from over 100 House offices, 15 Senate offices and 10 different committees, including the House Judiciary, Oversight and Foreign Affairs committees, according to the organizers.
"No one should have to experience something like this in their place of work," a staffer familiar with the drafting of the letter told CNN last week. "And I think it's important to tell this part of the story, because it's not just members of Congress who come to work at the Capitol every day. And it's not just staffers who work at the Capitol who were traumatized by what happened. And I think that is a piece of it. The trauma is there; the trauma is very real. And anytime that new pieces of information come out, you know, you're kind of re-traumatized."
Forbes: Nearly 400 Congressional Staffers Urge Senate To Convict Trump Over Capitol Attack

MSNBC says there are now more than 500 who have signed on. I bet by the end these will not just be staffers on the Democratic side.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th February 2021 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:04 PM   #2629
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Trump has been acquitted. His base is now motivated and solidified with a passion like never before. There will be no Republican party split, there will be primaries for RINOs.

Now that it's over, can we focus less on President Trump and move on to healing the Nation now? Remember "unity"? From the outside looking in, it looks like the promise of "unity" is an empty one. I hope I'm wrong, but the seething hatred is difficult to ignore.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:15 PM   #2630
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yep....he's going for the "It wasn't Constitutional" excuse. What a load of BS.

ETA: He's wiping away historical precedent, the vote of the Senate on the constitutionality, and the overwhelming opinion of Constitutional scholars and substituting his own opinion. The sheer arrogance is mind boggeling.
It's not arrogance, given that it's pretty much a certainty that he doesn't actually believe it. He's a shameless troll, either way.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He feels the need to rationalize his vote. I can't listen to it. He's got NPR on a special, however-McConnell wants to speak, coverage.

He probably feels the need to rationalize why his white supremacist Senate turned a blind eye to the con-man-who-was-POTUS' crimes. He has a lot to apologize rationalize for, 4 years worth.
4? At least 12. And I'm not even remotely convinced that McConnell was rationalizing for his own conscience.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I know, there will be complaints about how it turned out. But....

I believe that this is the most votes ever by the party of the President in an impeachment vote.

His first impeachment was the first time ever that a senator (Romney) voted to convict a president from his own party. This time, 7 did so? That is completely unprecedented.
Andrew Johnson was one vote away from being convicted. It's true that I don't know the specific party composition of the Senate at the time off the top of my head, though.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree, but I think to be prepared won't hurt.
But it is surprising how many liberals are not as anti gun as they used to be...
I suspect that that has more to do with your perception than much to do with notable changes in support among liberals. IIRC, liberals have long tended to have more complex positions on the issue than simply a black and white "guns good"/"guns bad," and, quite frankly, the NRA and its allies have been very... one-sided in their politically motivated caricatures of liberals on the subject.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:19 PM   #2631
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I hope I'm wrong, but the seething hatred is difficult to ignore.
Right? When I watched the riot Diaper Don incited, the violent chants, the hangman's platform, the maniac beating the fallen cop with a flagpole bearing the stars and stripes, I wondered what these idiots would pull next. I see that the Q-nuts are rumbling about something on March 4, and the DC hotels are planning for it, so . . .

I understand it is hard for trumpists to accept, but former president ***** -his-pants did lose the election, and beating cops to death with fire extinguishers isn't going to change that, but as you noted, they still seethe.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:49 PM   #2632
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Trump has been acquitted. His base is now motivated and solidified with a passion like never before. There will be no Republican party split, there will be primaries for RINOs.

Now that it's over, can we focus less on President Trump and move on to healing the Nation now? Remember "unity"? From the outside looking in, it looks like the promise of "unity" is an empty one. I hope I'm wrong, but the seething hatred is difficult to ignore.
**** all that.

There definitely will be an upcoming battle in the GOP.

Not supporting the Insurrectionist in Chief doesn't make Romney or Sasse or Toomey or Richard Burr RINOS.

And the Republicans are not interested in healing, they are merely interested in not being accountable.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:52 PM   #2633
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
War is a last resort, but if that is the price we must pay for democracy, so be it
As my sig shows, I am not a big f an of pure pacifism.

How do you think Heinlein would have felt about the tenure of Trump in the White House, and the way his supporters reacted to his election loss?

Not to mention rabid fans storming the Capitol Building to prevent a peaceful transfer of office?

What has "pacifism" got to do with any of that?
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:52 PM   #2634
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I'm all for healing the country. We just need to unequivocally remove the cancer to begin.
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Old 13th February 2021, 10:55 PM   #2635
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Pelosi in a press conference post McConnell's speech made a very clear point that they were ready to go a week before Jan 20th and McConnell refused. So for him to claim it was too late after he purposefully made it too late was just bull ****.

She also said McConnell waffled on saying Trump should be tried criminally.

Jamie Raskin: "We could have have [500] witnesses and it wouldn't have made a difference. We proved the facts of the case. ... McConnell said so..."

The Democratic press conference. Hit 'play' to start it.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th February 2021 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:00 PM   #2636
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm all for healing the country. We just need to unequivocally remove the cancer to begin.
so you are against Unity with the cancer?
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:11 PM   #2637
Thermal
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
so you are against Unity with the cancer?
Oddly, yes. I read about a unique approach in oncological treatment called "getting the ******* cancer out of you so you can begin healing". Struck a chord.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:42 PM   #2638
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Time to arm up, folks. I think a second civil war is a matter of time now that it has been estalbsihed that a president is above the law, and the militant right has been emboldened.
Let's hang on there just a bit. The DOJ and criminal courts haven't even gotten warmed up yet.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:48 PM   #2639
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Trump has been acquitted. His base is now motivated and solidified with a passion like never before. There will be no Republican party split, there will be primaries for RINOs.
SOo, violent white supremacism it is, then. Cool.

Quote:
Now that it's over, can we focus less on President Trump and move on to healing the Nation now?
Mmm, I can see how someone could consider such a thing possible - if you consider either republicans, and every person who isn't straight and white, to be part of "the Nation".

That's not really true, though Both groups are in fact fully American, it's just that one group - the one you keep saying you voted for, to be clear - desires to oppress and/or kill the other. Thus, "unity" can't really happen yet. Unless the party you claim represents you either changes their minds, thus consigning their current group to political obscurity, or succeeds in making the government openly genocidal, it's just going to keep going.

Sorry!

ETA: I've said, many times before, the US should have two major political parties committed to the good of the US as a whole. But this requires a commitment to, among other things, voting rights, equality under the law, weeding out corruption, and so on. With only one half decent party, we'll inevitably end up with a philosophy blind to it's own issues galumphing around. Problem is, given how badly the GOP has gerrymandered itself, it's not a party of grifters, violent bigots, and conspiracy theorists and other ignoramuses - or in Toupee Fiasco's case, all of the above.

Last edited by Mumbles; 14th February 2021 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 13th February 2021, 11:51 PM   #2640
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Trump has been acquitted. His base is now motivated and solidified with a passion like never before. There will be no Republican party split, there will be primaries for RINOs.

Now that it's over, can we focus less on President Trump and move on to healing the Nation now? Remember "unity"? From the outside looking in, it looks like the promise of "unity" is an empty one. I hope I'm wrong, but the seething hatred is difficult to ignore.
Seven of the ten Republicans in the House who voted for impeachment are in swing districts. Go ahead and primary them. A Trumptrash candidate won't carry any of those seven. Majorities are made on the margins.

Trump has a national approval rating in the low 30s and he lost 20 percent of Republicans and criminal trials haven't even started yet. The two voting tech company lawsuits are just starting too.

It's pretty clear much of the nation is happy with the unity we have. Democrats, anti-Trump independents and never Trump Republicans seem to be getting along just fine. We have all the unity we need, among Americans. The pro Trump-anti-America crowd can go sit in the corner and have all unity it wants with itself. We don't need their kind.

Last edited by Craig4; 13th February 2021 at 11:59 PM.
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