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Old 21st June 2015, 03:24 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I think it's cultural. Greenland was settled by a European population, at a time when there do not appear to have been any Inuit or other northern peoples in the south of that island. Also Greenland was well known to Europeans at a time when only the vaguest idea (if any idea at all) about other American lands was possessed in Europe. Greenland was a bishopric, and a possession of the Kings of Norway. Any detailed knowledge of the Norse settlement on Newfoundland, on the other hand, seems to have vanished, or been degraded to the status of myth.
There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible?
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Old 21st June 2015, 03:42 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible?
No. I think they're credible, but they were more or less unknown to scholarship in Europe during the Middle Ages. Nothing certain was known about N America.
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Old 21st June 2015, 06:40 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
@ Pacal

Thank you for that interesting and informative dissertation. I was not implying in my post any support for the nonsensical notion that the Americas were a "global crossroads" or that speakers of Yeniseian languages moved from Siberia into N America. I was merely noting that this new hypothesis suggests a contact - in the form of derivation from a common source - between a New World and an Old World language family.

Out of interest, I take it that you are sceptical of all the hypothesised "super families": Nostratic, and such like, which have been discussed in recent decades.
Yes I am skeptical of the whole "Super Families" of languages idea in that the methodology is dodgy and not as yet well supported and some of the "Super Families" are well dubious. For example grouping all Native American languages aside from Na-Dene and Inuit in one "Super Family" is highly questionable.

However that said I think the idea is on the right track, what it needs is more rigorous methodology and support.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 12:57 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Yes I am skeptical of the whole "Super Families" of languages idea in that the methodology is dodgy and not as yet well supported and some of the "Super Families" are well dubious. For example grouping all Native American languages aside from Na-Dene and Inuit in one "Super Family" is highly questionable.

However that said I think the idea is on the right track, what it needs is more rigorous methodology and support.
The wiki article on the Nostratic super family refers quite respectfully to the methodology.
Quote:
While the Nostratic hypothesis is not endorsed by the mainstream of comparative linguistics, Nostratic studies by nature of being based on the comparative method remain within the mainstream of contemporary linguistics from a methodological point of view; it is the scope with which the comparative method is applied rather than the methodology itself that raises eyebrows.
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Old 20th January 2022, 03:24 AM   #125
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America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:



This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".
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Old 20th January 2022, 08:42 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".
I genuinely don't understand what people like this are thinking. It's obvious to a child at a glance that the book is not old at all. The edges are not worn, nor is the leather strap that binds it. Crisp and clean. I have a leather bombers jacket that has more convincing distressing.

Low effort scamming. Really hate that. Couldn't the guy go to an antique shop and score something genuinely old and worn for a few bucks, then modify that so it wouldn't be identifiable to the seller or armchair book historian? It's not hard to hustle suckers with a token effort.
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Old 20th January 2022, 09:52 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
...Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting...
Yup, fourth result on Amazon:

Vintage Leather Journal - Antique Handmade Deckle Edge Vintage Paper Leather Bound Journal - Book of Shadows Journal - Leather Sketchbook - Drawing Journal (Vintage Brown, 7.5" x 5.5") .

Kinda pathetic, really.
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Old 20th January 2022, 10:47 PM   #128
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The style is even weirder than the fakeness to me. The age that the age-fakers seem to have been going for seems to reach back no more than 19th or early 20th century, not 12th. This prop belongs in the hands of somebody wearing all khaki with lots of pockets, a monocle, a circular-brimmed hat, and a mustache the size of a holiday ham, not cloth-covered chain-mail, a bucket helmet, and a shield with a family crest painted on it. (And that's without even starting on the letters & font.)
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Old 21st January 2022, 08:09 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The style is even weirder than the fakeness to me. The age that the age-fakers seem to have been going for seems to reach back no more than 19th or early 20th century, not 12th. This prop belongs in the hands of somebody wearing all khaki with lots of pockets, a monocle, a circular-brimmed hat, and a mustache the size of a holiday ham, not cloth-covered chain-mail, a bucket helmet, and a shield with a family crest painted on it. (And that's without even starting on the letters & font.)
For starters, It's a a book, not a vellum scroll. As you said, maybe Sean Connery's Indy Senior.
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Old 21st January 2022, 08:22 AM   #130
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I love the low effort scamming. I wish he had said what he paid for it before the fairness was revealed.

Low effort scamming is the most moral form of scamming. Only taking money from the worst of the worst.
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Old 21st January 2022, 08:38 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I love the low effort scamming. I wish he had said what he paid for it before the fairness was revealed.

Low effort scamming is the most moral form of scamming. Only taking money from the worst of the worst.
My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst.

"Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!"
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Old 21st January 2022, 09:38 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".
Wolter isn't worth taking even remotely seriously about anything. The show America Unearthed could have been a great way to tell / teach about the history of America instead we get sensationalistic utter rot. Instead of say - a serious series on the Moundbuilders.

If I remember correctly the first episode of this joke was about the possibility of Mayans in Georgia in Pre-Columbian times a little out there but not insane, sadly it went nuts very quickly.

And of course Wolter's fondness for conspiracy theories, with the "They don't want you to know!", paranoia is legendary. And frankly his old old game is also rather old. He, like so many, keeps repeating old debunked crap like the Michigan copper mines nonsense. (The notion that Europeans imported vast amounts of copper to the old world from copper mines in Michigan.) The basically total lack of any evidence for this is of course not important.

The Templar nonsense etc., is just icing on the cake on this pseudo stew of crap.

Finally isn't interesting just how the History Channel despises and has nothing but contempt for actual history.
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Old 21st January 2022, 10:30 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst.

"Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!"
That's my understanding too.

It saves time and effort engaging with people who are insufficiently gullible to actually part with money if you make it too plausible at the start.
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Old 22nd January 2022, 03:46 AM   #134
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His pictures show at least one page with "faded" handwritten text so it isn't straight off Amazon. I wonder if he is the one that has been defrauded?

Perhaps I should offer to sell him my Hitler diary.....
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Old 22nd January 2022, 03:50 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's my understanding too.

It saves time and effort engaging with people who are insufficiently gullible to actually part with money if you make it too plausible at the start.
That is often said but I'm not sure how true it is - look at the instructions in your latest "made in China" item likely to be riddled with syntax, vocabulary, and grammatical mistakes (if not produced by a big brand name and even that doesn't guarantee an error free document). I think many of the mistakes you see in scammers' texts and emails are not intended.
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Old 23rd January 2022, 12:12 AM   #136
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What is it with history conspiracy nuts and the Knights Templar?

They were massively powerful, had untold riches, now also access to a whole new continent... and yet were completely destroyed by a mediocre king?

Why not focus on some of the more longer running orders for a change?


On a semi serious note, had that been true it would have changed everything indeed. The Knights would have brought European diseases with them 200 ish years before they actually were introduced, and thus they die-off of the native population would have happened long before Columbus, giving the native Americans time to repopulate and gain immunity.
The US would never have existed.
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Old 23rd January 2022, 10:19 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Sorry to revive a rather old thread, but I was intrigued to come across this, the account of a journey circumnavigating Africa in a reproduction open Phoenician boat in 2008-2010. Heroodotus may well have been telling the truth. I'm getting spontaneous blisters just thinking about rowing against the current from the equator up the coast of West Africa, Mauritania, Western Sahara and Morocco.
Did Ancient Egyptians Circumnavigate Africa?

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Old 23rd January 2022, 12:28 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler View Post
There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible?
Atun-Shei does a Leif Erikson video every year on Leif Erikson Day.. Well, for the last few years anyway.
Here they are

Who was Leif Erikson
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When Vikings Met Native Americans: The Voyage of Thorvald Erikson
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Three Years in Vinland: The Norse Attempt to Colonize America
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Old 23rd January 2022, 01:11 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Atun-Shei does a Leif Erikson video every year on Leif Erikson Day.. Well, for the last few years anyway.
Here they are

Who was Leif Erikson
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When Vikings Met Native Americans: The Voyage of Thorvald Erikson
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Three Years in Vinland: The Norse Attempt to Colonize America
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Thanks.

I like Atun-Shei
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Old 23rd January 2022, 01:47 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Thanks.

I like Atun-Shei
He is one of the channels on my Patreon account.
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Old 23rd January 2022, 03:38 PM   #141
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As noted a large or continuous contact would have triggered a Columbian Exchange. As far as we can tell the Viking's didn't (they may have but the diseases didn't spread outside the local native areas).

We know disabled ships from Asia would be swept by the current to the Pacific Northwest as it happened in Historic times. Said folks were enslaved, killed or accepted into the native American Cultures.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316086

If say a Roman wine carrying ship was disabled by a storm and taken to Brazil. The folks aboard were inept and couldn't fix it or will killed by the locals they would have been enslaved or perhaps accepted into the population.

Columbian Exchange:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange
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Old 23rd January 2022, 05:23 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Atun-Shei does a Leif Erikson video every year on Leif Erikson Day.. Well, for the last few years anyway.
Here they are

Who was Leif Erikson
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When Vikings Met Native Americans: The Voyage of Thorvald Erikson
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Three Years in Vinland: The Norse Attempt to Colonize America
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I was unaware of this channel. Now I'm not. Best that's happened to me all day!
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Old 23rd January 2022, 05:33 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I was unaware of this channel. Now I'm not. Best that's happened to me all day!
I discovered him when he did a joint video with InRangeTV on the 1811 Slave revolt.
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Old 24th January 2022, 03:45 PM   #144
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".
I think somebody said that most crackpot history ends up involving the Knights Templar.
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Old 24th January 2022, 03:51 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst.

"Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!"
True, I meant low effort scamming of scammers, like the topic of this post. Admirable.

Aunt Gertrude knows what she did and that would be off topic here.
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Old 25th January 2022, 09:25 AM   #146
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The Mormons believe "white" ancient Israelites occupied North America.
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Old 25th January 2022, 09:59 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
As noted a large or continuous contact would have triggered a Columbian Exchange. As far as we can tell the Viking's didn't (they may have but the diseases didn't spread outside the local native areas).

We know disabled ships from Asia would be swept by the current to the Pacific Northwest as it happened in Historic times. Said folks were enslaved, killed or accepted into the native American Cultures.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316086

If say a Roman wine carrying ship was disabled by a storm and taken to Brazil. The folks aboard were inept and couldn't fix it or will killed by the locals they would have been enslaved or perhaps accepted into the population.

Columbian Exchange:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange

this is so incredibly close to stuff I have said in other places (like Quora, Youtube videos comments sections, etc) that I had to check this thread to see if it was I who had said it (you wrote "as noted", so I thought you might be refering to something I wrote in the past in this thread)

Agree with everything. It's logical.
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Old 25th January 2022, 03:33 PM   #148
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The Mormons believe "white" ancient Israelites occupied North America.
They have actully modified that and now accept that the tranplanted Jews were one of many groups inhabiting North America. Still a pile of nonsense though.
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Old 25th January 2022, 07:45 PM   #149
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A favorite resource of mine for assessing these claims.

Lot of claims of people washing up on unknown shores are taken as evidence, or legends euhemerized as real events.
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Old 1st February 2022, 09:31 AM   #150
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Did Ancient Egyptians Circumnavigate Africa?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
No they were pretty damn lousy sailors on the sea.
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Old 1st February 2022, 02:11 PM   #151
dudalb
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
They have actully modified that and now accept that the tranplanted Jews were one of many groups inhabiting North America. Still a pile of nonsense though.
Though the idea that Native Americans were descending from the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel was a common belief in the Late Eighteenth and the Nineteenth century. It was quite popular in the 1820's and Joseph Smith just put a new spin on it.
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Old 1st February 2022, 04:26 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No they were pretty damn lousy sailors on the sea.
That's pretty much the conclusion of the video.
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Old 1st February 2022, 05:51 PM   #153
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
A favorite resource of mine for assessing these claims.

Lot of claims of people washing up on unknown shores are taken as evidence, or legends euhemerized as real events.
THanks for the link. Great Website.
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