White people in pre-Columbian North America - Page 4

Fellow Traveler · 21st June 2015, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

I think it's cultural. Greenland was settled by a European population, at a time when there do not appear to have been any Inuit or other northern peoples in the south of that island. Also Greenland was well known to Europeans at a time when only the vaguest idea (if any idea at all) about other American lands was possessed in Europe. Greenland was a bishopric, and a possession of the Kings of Norway. Any detailed knowledge of the Norse settlement on Newfoundland, on the other hand, seems to have vanished, or been degraded to the status of myth.

There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible?

Craig B · 21st June 2015, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible?

No. I think they're credible, but they were more or less unknown to scholarship in Europe during the Middle Ages. Nothing certain was known about N America.

Pacal · 21st June 2015, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

@ Pacal

Thank you for that interesting and informative dissertation. I was not implying in my post any support for the nonsensical notion that the Americas were a "global crossroads" or that speakers of Yeniseian languages moved from Siberia into N America. I was merely noting that this new hypothesis suggests a contact - in the form of derivation from a common source - between a New World and an Old World language family.

Out of interest, I take it that you are sceptical of all the hypothesised "super families": Nostratic, and such like, which have been discussed in recent decades.

Yes I am skeptical of the whole "Super Families" of languages idea in that the methodology is dodgy and not as yet well supported and some of the "Super Families" are well dubious. For example grouping all Native American languages aside from Na-Dene and Inuit in one "Super Family" is highly questionable.

However that said I think the idea is on the right track, what it needs is more rigorous methodology and support.

Craig B · 22nd June 2015, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Pacal

Yes I am skeptical of the whole "Super Families" of languages idea in that the methodology is dodgy and not as yet well supported and some of the "Super Families" are well dubious. For example grouping all Native American languages aside from Na-Dene and Inuit in one "Super Family" is highly questionable.

However that said I think the idea is on the right track, what it needs is more rigorous methodology and support.

The wiki article on the Nostratic super family refers quite respectfully to the methodology.

Quote:

While the Nostratic hypothesis is not endorsed by the mainstream of comparative linguistics, Nostratic studies by nature of being based on the comparative method remain within the mainstream of contemporary linguistics from a methodological point of view; it is the scope with which the comparative method is applied rather than the methodology itself that raises eyebrows.

Checkmite · 20th January 2022, 03:24 AM

America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".

Thermal · 20th January 2022, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".

I genuinely don't understand what people like this are thinking. It's obvious to a child at a glance that the book is not old at all. The edges are not worn, nor is the leather strap that binds it. Crisp and clean. I have a leather bombers jacket that has more convincing distressing.

Low effort scamming. Really hate that. Couldn't the guy go to an antique shop and score something genuinely old and worn for a few bucks, then modify that so it wouldn't be identifiable to the seller or armchair book historian? It's not hard to hustle suckers with a token effort.

junkshop · 20th January 2022, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

...Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting...

Yup, fourth result on Amazon:

Vintage Leather Journal - Antique Handmade Deckle Edge Vintage Paper Leather Bound Journal - Book of Shadows Journal - Leather Sketchbook - Drawing Journal (Vintage Brown, 7.5" x 5.5") .

Kinda pathetic, really.

Delvo · 20th January 2022, 10:47 PM

The style is even weirder than the fakeness to me. The age that the age-fakers seem to have been going for seems to reach back no more than 19th or early 20th century, not 12th. This prop belongs in the hands of somebody wearing all khaki with lots of pockets, a monocle, a circular-brimmed hat, and a mustache the size of a holiday ham, not cloth-covered chain-mail, a bucket helmet, and a shield with a family crest painted on it. (And that's without even starting on the letters & font.)

jimbob · 21st January 2022, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

The style is even weirder than the fakeness to me. The age that the age-fakers seem to have been going for seems to reach back no more than 19th or early 20th century, not 12th. This prop belongs in the hands of somebody wearing all khaki with lots of pockets, a monocle, a circular-brimmed hat, and a mustache the size of a holiday ham, not cloth-covered chain-mail, a bucket helmet, and a shield with a family crest painted on it. (And that's without even starting on the letters & font.)

For starters, It's a a book, not a vellum scroll. As you said, maybe Sean Connery's Indy Senior.

Dr. Keith · 21st January 2022, 08:22 AM

I love the low effort scamming. I wish he had said what he paid for it before the fairness was revealed.

Low effort scamming is the most moral form of scamming. Only taking money from the worst of the worst.

theprestige · 21st January 2022, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I love the low effort scamming. I wish he had said what he paid for it before the fairness was revealed.

Low effort scamming is the most moral form of scamming. Only taking money from the worst of the worst.

My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst.

"Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!"

Pacal · 21st January 2022, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".

Wolter isn't worth taking even remotely seriously about anything. The show America Unearthed could have been a great way to tell / teach about the history of America instead we get sensationalistic utter rot. Instead of say - a serious series on the Moundbuilders.

If I remember correctly the first episode of this joke was about the possibility of Mayans in Georgia in Pre-Columbian times a little out there but not insane, sadly it went nuts very quickly.

And of course Wolter's fondness for conspiracy theories, with the "They don't want you to know!", paranoia is legendary. And frankly his old old game is also rather old. He, like so many, keeps repeating old debunked crap like the Michigan copper mines nonsense. (The notion that Europeans imported vast amounts of copper to the old world from copper mines in Michigan.) The basically total lack of any evidence for this is of course not important.

The Templar nonsense etc., is just icing on the cake on this pseudo stew of crap.

Finally isn't interesting just how the History Channel despises and has nothing but contempt for actual history.

jimbob · 21st January 2022, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst.

"Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!"

That's my understanding too.

It saves time and effort engaging with people who are insufficiently gullible to actually part with money if you make it too plausible at the start.

Darat · 22nd January 2022, 03:46 AM

His pictures show at least one page with "faded" handwritten text so it isn't straight off Amazon. I wonder if he is the one that has been defrauded?

Perhaps I should offer to sell him my Hitler diary.....

Darat · 22nd January 2022, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

That's my understanding too.

It saves time and effort engaging with people who are insufficiently gullible to actually part with money if you make it too plausible at the start.

That is often said but I'm not sure how true it is - look at the instructions in your latest "made in China" item likely to be riddled with syntax, vocabulary, and grammatical mistakes (if not produced by a big brand name and even that doesn't guarantee an error free document). I think many of the mistakes you see in scammers' texts and emails are not intended.

Lukraak_Sisser · 23rd January 2022, 12:12 AM

What is it with history conspiracy nuts and the Knights Templar?

They were massively powerful, had untold riches, now also access to a whole new continent... and yet were completely destroyed by a mediocre king?

Why not focus on some of the more longer running orders for a change?

On a semi serious note, had that been true it would have changed everything indeed. The Knights would have brought European diseases with them 200 ish years before they actually were introduced, and thus they die-off of the native population would have happened long before Columbus, giving the native Americans time to repopulate and gain immunity.
The US would never have existed.

Captain_Swoop · 23rd January 2022, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Sorry to revive a rather old thread, but I was intrigued to come across this, the account of a journey circumnavigating Africa in a reproduction open Phoenician boat in 2008-2010. Heroodotus may well have been telling the truth. I'm getting spontaneous blisters just thinking about rowing against the current from the equator up the coast of West Africa, Mauritania, Western Sahara and Morocco.

Did Ancient Egyptians Circumnavigate Africa?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Captain_Swoop · 23rd January 2022, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible?

Atun-Shei does a Leif Erikson video every year on Leif Erikson Day.. Well, for the last few years anyway.
Here they are

Who was Leif Erikson

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

When Vikings Met Native Americans: The Voyage of Thorvald Erikson

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Three Years in Vinland: The Norse Attempt to Colonize America

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

jimbob · 23rd January 2022, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Atun-Shei does a Leif Erikson video every year on Leif Erikson Day.. Well, for the last few years anyway.
Here they are

Who was Leif Erikson

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

When Vikings Met Native Americans: The Voyage of Thorvald Erikson

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Three Years in Vinland: The Norse Attempt to Colonize America

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Thanks.

I like Atun-Shei

Captain_Swoop · 23rd January 2022, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Thanks.

I like Atun-Shei

He is one of the channels on my Patreon account.

Hans · 23rd January 2022, 03:38 PM

As noted a large or continuous contact would have triggered a Columbian Exchange. As far as we can tell the Viking's didn't (they may have but the diseases didn't spread outside the local native areas).

We know disabled ships from Asia would be swept by the current to the Pacific Northwest as it happened in Historic times. Said folks were enslaved, killed or accepted into the native American Cultures.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316086

If say a Roman wine carrying ship was disabled by a storm and taken to Brazil. The folks aboard were inept and couldn't fix it or will killed by the locals they would have been enslaved or perhaps accepted into the population.

Columbian Exchange:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange

Trebuchet · 23rd January 2022, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Atun-Shei does a Leif Erikson video every year on Leif Erikson Day.. Well, for the last few years anyway.
Here they are

Who was Leif Erikson

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

When Vikings Met Native Americans: The Voyage of Thorvald Erikson

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Three Years in Vinland: The Norse Attempt to Colonize America

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I was unaware of this channel. Now I'm not. Best that's happened to me all day!

Captain_Swoop · 23rd January 2022, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I was unaware of this channel. Now I'm not. Best that's happened to me all day!

I discovered him when he did a joint video with InRangeTV on the 1811 Slave revolt.

dudalb · 24th January 2022, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge.

Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States.

Two days ago, made this Twitter post:

https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png

This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting.

Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive.

Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".

I think somebody said that most crackpot history ends up involving the Knights Templar.

Dr. Keith · 24th January 2022, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst.

"Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!"

True, I meant low effort scamming of scammers, like the topic of this post. Admirable.

Aunt Gertrude knows what she did and that would be off topic here.

Hercules56 · 25th January 2022, 09:25 AM

The Mormons believe "white" ancient Israelites occupied North America.

AcesHigh · 25th January 2022, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Hans

As noted a large or continuous contact would have triggered a Columbian Exchange. As far as we can tell the Viking's didn't (they may have but the diseases didn't spread outside the local native areas).

We know disabled ships from Asia would be swept by the current to the Pacific Northwest as it happened in Historic times. Said folks were enslaved, killed or accepted into the native American Cultures.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316086

If say a Roman wine carrying ship was disabled by a storm and taken to Brazil. The folks aboard were inept and couldn't fix it or will killed by the locals they would have been enslaved or perhaps accepted into the population.

Columbian Exchange:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange

this is so incredibly close to stuff I have said in other places (like Quora, Youtube videos comments sections, etc) that I had to check this thread to see if it was I who had said it (you wrote "as noted", so I thought you might be refering to something I wrote in the past in this thread)

Agree with everything. It's logical.

dudalb · 25th January 2022, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

The Mormons believe "white" ancient Israelites occupied North America.

They have actully modified that and now accept that the tranplanted Jews were one of many groups inhabiting North America. Still a pile of nonsense though.

Venom · 25th January 2022, 07:45 PM

A favorite resource of mine for assessing these claims.

Lot of claims of people washing up on unknown shores are taken as evidence, or legends euhemerized as real events.

ponderingturtle · 1st February 2022, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Did Ancient Egyptians Circumnavigate Africa?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

No they were pretty damn lousy sailors on the sea.

dudalb · 1st February 2022, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

They have actully modified that and now accept that the tranplanted Jews were one of many groups inhabiting North America. Still a pile of nonsense though.

Though the idea that Native Americans were descending from the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel was a common belief in the Late Eighteenth and the Nineteenth century. It was quite popular in the 1820's and Joseph Smith just put a new spin on it.

Captain_Swoop · 1st February 2022, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

No they were pretty damn lousy sailors on the sea.

That's pretty much the conclusion of the video.

dudalb · 1st February 2022, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

A favorite resource of mine for assessing these claims.

Lot of claims of people washing up on unknown shores are taken as evidence, or legends euhemerized as real events.

THanks for the link. Great Website.

21st June 2015, 03:24 PM	#121
Fellow Traveler Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 3,331	Originally Posted by Craig B I think it's cultural. Greenland was settled by a European population, at a time when there do not appear to have been any Inuit or other northern peoples in the south of that island. Also Greenland was well known to Europeans at a time when only the vaguest idea (if any idea at all) about other American lands was possessed in Europe. Greenland was a bishopric, and a possession of the Kings of Norway. Any detailed knowledge of the Norse settlement on Newfoundland, on the other hand, seems to have vanished, or been degraded to the status of myth. There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible?
	__________________ Trouble walks in on small delicate feet and grows Fate whispers to the warrior you can not withstand the storm the worrier whispers back I am the storm

20th January 2022, 03:24 AM	#125
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 27,587	America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge. Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States. Two days ago, made this Twitter post: This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting. Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive. Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find".
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 Last edited by Checkmite; 20th January 2022 at 03:27 AM.

20th January 2022, 08:42 AM	#126
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 18,699	Originally Posted by Checkmite America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge. Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States. Two days ago, made this Twitter post: https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting. Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive. Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find". I genuinely don't understand what people like this are thinking. It's obvious to a child at a glance that the book is not old at all. The edges are not worn, nor is the leather strap that binds it. Crisp and clean. I have a leather bombers jacket that has more convincing distressing. Low effort scamming. Really hate that. Couldn't the guy go to an antique shop and score something genuinely old and worn for a few bucks, then modify that so it wouldn't be identifiable to the seller or armchair book historian? It's not hard to hustle suckers with a token effort.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

20th January 2022, 09:52 AM	#127
junkshop Muse Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Where the gin was. Posts: 936	Originally Posted by Checkmite ...Two days ago, made this Twitter post: https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting... Yup, fourth result on Amazon: Vintage Leather Journal - Antique Handmade Deckle Edge Vintage Paper Leather Bound Journal - Book of Shadows Journal - Leather Sketchbook - Drawing Journal (Vintage Brown, 7.5" x 5.5") . Kinda pathetic, really.
	__________________ Not a Cockney.

21st January 2022, 08:09 AM	#129
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 25,564	Originally Posted by Delvo The style is even weirder than the fakeness to me. The age that the age-fakers seem to have been going for seems to reach back no more than 19th or early 20th century, not 12th. This prop belongs in the hands of somebody wearing all khaki with lots of pockets, a monocle, a circular-brimmed hat, and a mustache the size of a holiday ham, not cloth-covered chain-mail, a bucket helmet, and a shield with a family crest painted on it. (And that's without even starting on the letters & font.) For starters, It's a a book, not a vellum scroll. As you said, maybe Sean Connery's Indy Senior.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

21st June 2015, 03:42 PM	#122
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler There is the Old Norse Sagas starring Leif Erickson and others. Do you find those non-credible? No. I think they're credible, but they were more or less unknown to scholarship in Europe during the Middle Ages. Nothing certain was known about N America.

21st June 2015, 06:40 PM	#123
Pacal Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,341	Originally Posted by Craig B @ Pacal Thank you for that interesting and informative dissertation. I was not implying in my post any support for the nonsensical notion that the Americas were a "global crossroads" or that speakers of Yeniseian languages moved from Siberia into N America. I was merely noting that this new hypothesis suggests a contact - in the form of derivation from a common source - between a New World and an Old World language family. Out of interest, I take it that you are sceptical of all the hypothesised "super families": Nostratic, and such like, which have been discussed in recent decades. Yes I am skeptical of the whole "Super Families" of languages idea in that the methodology is dodgy and not as yet well supported and some of the "Super Families" are well dubious. For example grouping all Native American languages aside from Na-Dene and Inuit in one "Super Family" is highly questionable. However that said I think the idea is on the right track, what it needs is more rigorous methodology and support.

22nd June 2015, 12:57 AM	#124
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by Pacal Yes I am skeptical of the whole "Super Families" of languages idea in that the methodology is dodgy and not as yet well supported and some of the "Super Families" are well dubious. For example grouping all Native American languages aside from Na-Dene and Inuit in one "Super Family" is highly questionable. However that said I think the idea is on the right track, what it needs is more rigorous methodology and support. The wiki article on the Nostratic super family refers quite respectfully to the methodology. Quote: While the Nostratic hypothesis is not endorsed by the mainstream of comparative linguistics, Nostratic studies by nature of being based on the comparative method remain within the mainstream of contemporary linguistics from a methodological point of view; it is the scope with which the comparative method is applied rather than the methodology itself that raises eyebrows.

20th January 2022, 10:47 PM	#128
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 10,269	The style is even weirder than the fakeness to me. The age that the age-fakers seem to have been going for seems to reach back no more than 19th or early 20th century, not 12th. This prop belongs in the hands of somebody wearing all khaki with lots of pockets, a monocle, a circular-brimmed hat, and a mustache the size of a holiday ham, not cloth-covered chain-mail, a bucket helmet, and a shield with a family crest painted on it. (And that's without even starting on the letters & font.)

21st January 2022, 08:22 AM	#130
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 24,926	I love the low effort scamming. I wish he had said what he paid for it before the fairness was revealed. Low effort scamming is the most moral form of scamming. Only taking money from the worst of the worst.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

21st January 2022, 08:38 AM	#131
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 58,550	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I love the low effort scamming. I wish he had said what he paid for it before the fairness was revealed. Low effort scamming is the most moral form of scamming. Only taking money from the worst of the worst. My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst. "Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!"
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

21st January 2022, 09:38 AM	#132
Pacal Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,341	Originally Posted by Checkmite America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge. Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States. Two days ago, made this Twitter post: https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting. Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive. Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find". Wolter isn't worth taking even remotely seriously about anything. The show America Unearthed could have been a great way to tell / teach about the history of America instead we get sensationalistic utter rot. Instead of say - a serious series on the Moundbuilders. If I remember correctly the first episode of this joke was about the possibility of Mayans in Georgia in Pre-Columbian times a little out there but not insane, sadly it went nuts very quickly. And of course Wolter's fondness for conspiracy theories, with the "They don't want you to know!", paranoia is legendary. And frankly his old old game is also rather old. He, like so many, keeps repeating old debunked crap like the Michigan copper mines nonsense. (The notion that Europeans imported vast amounts of copper to the old world from copper mines in Michigan.) The basically total lack of any evidence for this is of course not important. The Templar nonsense etc., is just icing on the cake on this pseudo stew of crap. Finally isn't interesting just how the History Channel despises and has nothing but contempt for actual history.

21st January 2022, 10:30 AM	#133
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 25,564	Originally Posted by theprestige My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst. "Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!" That's my understanding too. It saves time and effort engaging with people who are insufficiently gullible to actually part with money if you make it too plausible at the start.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

22nd January 2022, 03:46 AM	#134
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,791	His pictures show at least one page with "faded" handwritten text so it isn't straight off Amazon. I wonder if he is the one that has been defrauded? Perhaps I should offer to sell him my Hitler diary.....
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

22nd January 2022, 03:50 AM	#135
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,791	Originally Posted by jimbob That's my understanding too. It saves time and effort engaging with people who are insufficiently gullible to actually part with money if you make it too plausible at the start. That is often said but I'm not sure how true it is - look at the instructions in your latest "made in China" item likely to be riddled with syntax, vocabulary, and grammatical mistakes (if not produced by a big brand name and even that doesn't guarantee an error free document). I think many of the mistakes you see in scammers' texts and emails are not intended.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

23rd January 2022, 12:12 AM	#136
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,485	What is it with history conspiracy nuts and the Knights Templar? They were massively powerful, had untold riches, now also access to a whole new continent... and yet were completely destroyed by a mediocre king? Why not focus on some of the more longer running orders for a change? On a semi serious note, had that been true it would have changed everything indeed. The Knights would have brought European diseases with them 200 ish years before they actually were introduced, and thus they die-off of the native population would have happened long before Columbus, giving the native Americans time to repopulate and gain immunity. The US would never have existed.

23rd January 2022, 01:47 PM	#140
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,120	Originally Posted by jimbob Thanks. I like Atun-Shei He is one of the channels on my Patreon account.

23rd January 2022, 03:38 PM	#141
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,910	As noted a large or continuous contact would have triggered a Columbian Exchange. As far as we can tell the Viking's didn't (they may have but the diseases didn't spread outside the local native areas). We know disabled ships from Asia would be swept by the current to the Pacific Northwest as it happened in Historic times. Said folks were enslaved, killed or accepted into the native American Cultures. https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316086 If say a Roman wine carrying ship was disabled by a storm and taken to Brazil. The folks aboard were inept and couldn't fix it or will killed by the locals they would have been enslaved or perhaps accepted into the population. Columbian Exchange:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,910

23rd January 2022, 05:33 PM	#143
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,120	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I was unaware of this channel. Now I'm not. Best that's happened to me all day! I discovered him when he did a joint video with InRangeTV on the 1811 Slave revolt.

24th January 2022, 03:45 PM	#144
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by Checkmite America Unearthed's run has long since ended, but former host Scott Wolter's theory of North American history has congealed around what he claims to be evidence of expeditions by the Knights Templar to the Americas shortly before or during their persecution by the King of France in the early 14th century, at which time he contends they brought several artifacts to North America to hide or preserve. Wolter believes that the academic establishment, or at least "elites" within it, who are also Freemasons of course, are aware of this "secret history" and actively work to suppress it, for reasons he doesn't elaborate upon beyond ambiguities like that public knowledge of this information "would change everything". The implication is that acknowledging that some medieval knights visited the Americas in the early 1300's to bury a chest, scattered some ARG clues about how to find it, and then left would so profoundly disrupt the very foundations of American society that the few scholars who know the truth and an entire secret society have vowed that they must never to allow the public to access this knowledge. Wolter's most recent endeavor is a company called "Templar Gold", a treasure-hunting company. Wolter believes that the premise behind the movie National Treasure is literally true and he wants to essentially make the plot come true as well by following all the Masonic/Templar clues and finding a vast Templar treasure hidden somewhere in the United States. Two days ago, made this Twitter post: https://i.gyazo.com/e4671b30ce0e8f17...972dd942e5.png This is actually a modern, mass-produced and commercially-sold journal designed to look like an antique, many slightly-different variations of which are available for purchase online (Amazon search terms: "antique journal"), with a "rustic" styling and new but textured and factory-stained paper that is specially made to appear old even though it's not. Beyond this, additional work seems to have been done on the book to add even more of an appearance of age, distressing the leather cover and filling the pages with cursive handwriting. Even Wolter's own fans on Twitter quickly pointed out that the journal is obviously not a genuine antique. Wolter's response to this has been annoyed and dismissive. He claims to have already known that the journal is thoroughly modern but asserts that fact is not meaningful, arguing that he believes the journal is a modern copy of some genuine Templar book of real secrets, and that the information contained within it is true and trustworthy, notwithstanding its creator's very obvious attempt to make the book artificially look like a very old artifact even though it's not, which rather loudly telegraphs an intent to deceive. Wolter's backpedal seems disingenuous to say the least. In the original post, he showcases the book with photos of different dramatic angles which seem to suggest his intent is that the reader is supposed to be impressed and intrigued by the appearance of this "shocking find". I think somebody said that most crackpot history ends up involving the Knights Templar.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

24th January 2022, 03:51 PM	#145
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 24,926	Originally Posted by theprestige My impression is that low-effort scamming goes after the naive and the gullible, not the worst of the worst. "Oh, you fell for the scam email with the obvious misspellings and misconceptions about how the world works? That's what you get, Aunt Gertrude, for being literally Hitler-adjacent!" True, I meant low effort scamming of scammers, like the topic of this post. Admirable. Aunt Gertrude knows what she did and that would be off topic here.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

25th January 2022, 09:25 AM	#146
Hercules56 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,424	The Mormons believe "white" ancient Israelites occupied North America.

25th January 2022, 09:59 AM	#147
AcesHigh Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 561	Originally Posted by Hans As noted a large or continuous contact would have triggered a Columbian Exchange. As far as we can tell the Viking's didn't (they may have but the diseases didn't spread outside the local native areas). We know disabled ships from Asia would be swept by the current to the Pacific Northwest as it happened in Historic times. Said folks were enslaved, killed or accepted into the native American Cultures. https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316086 If say a Roman wine carrying ship was disabled by a storm and taken to Brazil. The folks aboard were inept and couldn't fix it or will killed by the locals they would have been enslaved or perhaps accepted into the population. Columbian Exchange:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange this is so incredibly close to stuff I have said in other places (like Quora, Youtube videos comments sections, etc) that I had to check this thread to see if it was I who had said it (you wrote "as noted", so I thought you might be refering to something I wrote in the past in this thread) Agree with everything. It's logical.
AcesHigh Muse Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 561

25th January 2022, 03:33 PM	#148
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by Hercules56 The Mormons believe "white" ancient Israelites occupied North America. They have actully modified that and now accept that the tranplanted Jews were one of many groups inhabiting North America. Still a pile of nonsense though.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

25th January 2022, 07:45 PM	#149
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 5,770	A favorite resource of mine for assessing these claims. Lot of claims of people washing up on unknown shores are taken as evidence, or legends euhemerized as real events.

1st February 2022, 02:11 PM	#151
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by dudalb They have actully modified that and now accept that the tranplanted Jews were one of many groups inhabiting North America. Still a pile of nonsense though. Though the idea that Native Americans were descending from the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel was a common belief in the Late Eighteenth and the Nineteenth century. It was quite popular in the 1820's and Joseph Smith just put a new spin on it.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

1st February 2022, 04:26 PM	#152
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,120	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle No they were pretty damn lousy sailors on the sea. That's pretty much the conclusion of the video.

1st February 2022, 05:51 PM	#153
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	Originally Posted by Venom A favorite resource of mine for assessing these claims. Lot of claims of people washing up on unknown shores are taken as evidence, or legends euhemerized as real events. THanks for the link. Great Website.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.