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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 1st August 2020, 10:46 AM   #721
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
They are literally out there protecting you from getting killed and getting bottles, rocks, explosives, bleach, and urine thrown at them in return.
You... don't really believe that, do you ? That's such a massive oversimplification it borders on lying, or outright trolling.

'****sake, Cassidy, there are those coppers on the street, keepin' us all from gettin' capped and ****! Imma throw piss at them!'
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:48 AM   #722
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
There are many examples of police brutality, unwarranted stops, search and seizures... no argument there (I was on a Grand Jury for 6 months and what I witnessed was horrible). To say it is systemic is to ignore those who are committed to their oath. Is the molestation of young children by Priests systemic? IMO, "No", but it is a real problem. The police situation is very much like what I described, we tend to silo actions and then paint a broad brush on the entity. Exceptions need to be dealt with the swift hand of containment and judicial actions.
Systemic - not systematic. There's plenty of evidence that it's systemic. In some of the 18,000 US police forces, it's completely infected the culture.


Here's a police department that's taken action to deal with a rotten apple that brought their force into disrepute:

https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/v...tal-shootings/

By calling for an investigation into the celebrations every time an officer shoots someone.

Quote:
The captain who pushed for an investigation, John Whitney, would soon be out of a job. A former SWAT team commander with two master’s degrees, Whitney says he was forced out of the department after raising concerns about the badge-bending tradition and other misconduct. He filed a retaliation claim against the city in March.

“The community we serve will lose faith in us,” Whitney told Open Vallejo. “This practice needs to end.”

At the time of Whitney’s firing, nearly 40% of officers on the force had been in at least one shooting, Open Vallejo research shows. More than a third of those had participated in two or more. The department employs about 100 sworn personnel.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:05 AM   #723
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Systemic - not systematic. There's plenty of evidence that it's systemic. In some of the 18,000 US police forces, it's completely infected the culture.
Who said systematic?
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:07 AM   #724
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Rioting is the kind of protest you get when you've already reached the point of making people believe they are justified in opposing unjust authority in that way. People who protest do not think they are the bad guys any more than the cops do, or you or I do.

Protesters think they're right and moral to protest. If it looks to them that the cops are getting heavy handed with their justified exercise of their rights, then they feel morally justified in resisting that oppression. Note that this is irrespective of the subject of the protest; it's just how crowds of people work.

If riot police wade into a protest then people will be scared and outraged. Some will want to leave. Some will want to throw a brick. Yes, the law will hold everyone accountable for their actions but those who organise the police response know (or should know if they're competent) how crowd control works, and there's a duty on the organised professionals to behave in a disciplined manner conducive to maintaining public order in the most effective way even if their gut instinct is to save face like schoolyard bullies, stamp their authority on the situation and break some heads rather than do what's best.

Escalating the violence until you win isn't winning when you still have a city to police tomorrow.
I agree with your comments... no issues. Plus it was well stated...
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:19 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I agree with your comments... no issues. Plus it was well stated...
And I welcome and embrace the spirit of de-escalation, particularly in this thread.
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:53 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
This was an article in the Statesman Journal

https://www.statesmanjournal.com/sto...cy/5290907002/
You know that's from May 30th, right?
Quote:
Protesters broke into the Portland police headquarters Friday night and authorities said they lit a fire inside as a rally over the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis turned violent.

Blazes continued to burn early Saturday morning in multiple locations in downtown, including a building that housed a bank. ...

A fire built from cardboard boxes and other items burned in the middle of a street downtown and video appeared to show dozens of people breaking into Pioneer Place mall and taking bags from a Louis Vuitton store.
I believe telling people to leave downtown, "it's not safe", was referring to getting the protesters to leave.

I'll have to do a search to find out which "buildings" were set on fire.

Then in Eugene (that's ~100 miles away in case you didn't know, and it's a college town):
Quote:
The crowd swelled to more than 300 people and set property on fire in front of the West Seventh Street at I-105 on-ramp, smashed the windows of local businesses, chanted slogans against police violence, battered vehicles with their drivers still inside and set off fireworks....

Eugene police called them “an unruly mob” in a news release issued early Saturday morning. ... about 200 people...
And members of the march tried to stop the violence.
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Old 1st August 2020, 12:27 PM   #727
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You know that's from May 30th, right?
I believe telling people to leave downtown, "it's not safe", was referring to getting the protesters to leave.

I'll have to do a search to find out which "buildings" were set on fire.

Then in Eugene (that's ~100 miles away in case you didn't know, and it's a college town): And members of the march tried to stop the violence.
Yes, I know that. Just because it happened 2 months ago, it does not make the point irrelevant. First, I am not a Trump supporter or for that fact a Democratic supporter either. Since there was already an example of violence and destruction that may have established a reasonable cause (I do not know the mindset of the Fed) to not wait any longer. I don't know but there was a history of unrest and the continuum was present.

It wouldn't matter which buildings were set on fire as there is a responsibility of the US government to protect Federal property. Precautions needed to be taken, the argument would be... did the Feds overstep their roles? If there was no clear or present danger for the Federal properties, then there is pause for concern.
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Old 1st August 2020, 01:59 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Yes, I know that. Just because it happened 2 months ago, it does not make the point irrelevant. First, I am not a Trump supporter or for that fact a Democratic supporter either. Since there was already an example of violence and destruction that may have established a reasonable cause (I do not know the mindset of the Fed) to not wait any longer. I don't know but there was a history of unrest and the continuum was present.

It wouldn't matter which buildings were set on fire as there is a responsibility of the US government to protect Federal property. Precautions needed to be taken, the argument would be... did the Feds overstep their roles? If there was no clear or present danger for the Federal properties, then there is pause for concern.
The city did not burn down. The downtown area did not burn down. The fire in the image is a bunch of cardboard in the street.

You're buying into the false narrative that Trump needed to protect a federal courthouse. That was an excuse, not an actual need.

What was he trying to prove, that he could deal with Portland protests because the Democrats couldn't? No officials in Portland asked for or needed his intervention. It was nothing more than a political stunt.

Trump needed something to distract people from his failed economy and COVID response.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 1st August 2020, 04:28 PM   #729
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The city did not burn down. The downtown area did not burn down. The fire in the image is a bunch of cardboard in the street.

You're buying into the false narrative that Trump needed to protect a federal courthouse. That was an excuse, not an actual need.

What was he trying to prove, that he could deal with Portland protests because the Democrats couldn't? No officials in Portland asked for or needed his intervention. It was nothing more than a political stunt.

Trump needed something to distract people from his failed economy and COVID response.
Everything you listed is quite plausible!

On a side note, it appears that almost every move is politicized and that is one of my pet peeves since I have zero political alliance. I live in a state where Trump is greater than sliced bread, it doesn't take much of an imagination to know how that feels
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:44 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
There were choices. The protestors are responsible for their actions, just like the police (or whatever we call them) are responsible for their responses.
That's an excuse often heard from cops and supporters, however physics is very clear on this one: An effect can not precede a cause. A police action which occurred before a protester action does not qualify as a "response."

Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I was on a Grand Jury for 6 months and what I witnessed was horrible
Are you saying you served on a Grand Jury while being so completely biased in favour of the State that you're even willing to throw out basic physical cause-and-effect constraints to make excuses for them?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 05:14 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
that he conspired with the Russians despite there being zero evidence.
Oh, there’s lots of evidence.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 05:43 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's an excuse often heard from cops and supporters, however physics is very clear on this one: An effect can not precede a cause. A police action which occurred before a protester action does not qualify as a "response."



Are you saying you served on a Grand Jury while being so completely biased in favour of the State that you're even willing to throw out basic physical cause-and-effect constraints to make excuses for them?
How do you feel about equilibriums in game theory? That is in a sense a response to something that hasn't happened yet...it is a strategy based on the strategy others are thought to employ.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 08:52 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's an excuse often heard from cops and supporters, however physics is very clear on this one: An effect can not precede a cause. A police action which occurred before a protester action does not qualify as a "response."
Actually, my response was from being a parent. I do not condone violence, in fact, my bias is totally the opposite of what you implied. See below for an expansion...



Quote:
Are you saying you served on a Grand Jury while being so completely biased in favour of the State that you're even willing to throw out basic physical cause-and-effect constraints to make excuses for them?
I was on the Grand Jury in Phoenix, AZ for 6 months. Me and one other person were the only ones who did not: served in the military, were married to a policeman, had a father and/or brother who were police, had an axe to grind, and rubber stamp the State's case.

I saw so many people railroaded that I reached out to the presiding Judge for a meeting. First, we took votes by raising our hands (this created a massive peer pressure with the weak ones) and the book of Arizona Revised Statutes said the vote is individual and not to be seen except for the State Official who was running this GJ. The Judge promptly brought out an amendment that the Courts attached to the governing ARS which gave the Courts the OPTION to carry out votes with a show of hands.

In 6 months, only 1 case did not go to court. It was sickening, distasteful, and corrupt.

So my bias is not in favor of police militarized actions, I am so far away from accepting that type of behavior. Even though I have had this horrible experience, it does not deter me from recognizing preventable actions by others... who are not police.

I apologize for the long-winded answer but I wanted to make perfectly clear regarding my position.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:04 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How do you feel about equilibriums in game theory? That is in a sense a response to something that hasn't happened yet...it is a strategy based on the strategy others are thought to employ.
This entire situation is a classic Game Theory set up. I believe in GT and it works, in some cases, it takes longer than what we see in movies and "Let's Make A Deal" but it works. Mathematically, equilibrium will harness the over thinking and eliminate bad decisions, in reality the distribution of wrong results versus correct results will be like any other coin flip.

Even though I totally agree with equilibrium in GT; I have a hard time following my own advice in stocks. Just last week I dropped a stock that showed little momentum or value yet I thought it had good financials supporting the HOLD. Well, I sold it and within a few days it took on a life of it's own and I ended up NOT capturing a $10K spike.

Long live GT but I gotta use it properly.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:38 AM   #735
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As an aside, the Lincoln Project decided to do an ad about the Portland Moms.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 03:59 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As an aside, the Lincoln Project decided to do an ad about the Portland Moms.
Nice post. I do not know the statute that allows Federal troops to actively participate in quelling protestors if they are not attacking or threatening Federal property.

Is there an answer as to why the Portland Police do not arrest the Federal Agents?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 04:25 PM   #737
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Same reason they don't like arresting other law enforcement in general, they're not the 'bad guys', that's the 'criminals'.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 05:12 PM   #738
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
People who go to protest are not rioters. They do not see themselves that way. You can turn them into rioters, if you police an event clumsily enough. This isn't news; it's psychology of crowd events 101.

So I have to disagree. Calling them rioters is *exactly* a matter of how you choose to frame it, because that's only the situation as it is after a riot has started. They weren't rioters and had no intention of becoming rioters when they set out to protest.

People who riot, are rioters. I responded to the assertion that riot police cause riots, with a nuance view that, well, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Why that is somehow controversial here is confusing. Saying not every situation is a carbon copy and that different outcomes were caused by different contributing factors should be self evident. If the only accepted view here is that riots didn't happen, but if they did, they were wholly caused by the police, then I don't really know where to go from there.



Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
And the peaceful protesters who were attacked? Or the more than 100 journalists? What's your excuse there? More liberal hyperbole ?

I can only imagine if Obama had started to deploy faceless enforcers who drove conservatives away in unmarked vans. Probably they'd burn down the White House.

eta
Face it, when people who freaking protest police brutality are met with police brutality, that's going to escalate the situation. This is a no-brainer. In fact, I agree with Beau of the Fifth Coloum when he says it's remarkable how well everyone understands this when it happens in other countries, yet for some reason people are clueless as to solutions when civil unrest happens in the USA.

Would you allow any blame for the instigators within the larger protest movement who deliberately attempt to cause these reactions? Can you see how when protesters police themselves, and do not do ANY of the things they have been doing nightly, there is no need for the police to react with crowd dispersion?

You can't point to the change on one side while completely ignoring the change on the other. Feel free to read local reporting the last few nights, specifically about how there has been the lack of basically all causes for police intervention. No lasers, no breaking down the fence, no fireworks, no attempting to start fires near the building, pretty much no violence at all. Can we at least acknowledge this as a contributing factor?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 06:31 PM   #739
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But by that same reasoning, people who protest, are protesters. That they can't be the same people.

What I learned in Aikido, was that "force engenders resistance". Push against people, they'll naturally push back, with equal or greater force. That's really what's happened to the police, they're taught 'criminals' are pushing harder and harder and they have to push back even harder--- which is why civilians are dying at the hands of police and police don't see a way to avoid it because force is mainly what police are taught. Take control by overpowering, by outgunning, out-armoring.

The effective principle of Aikido is to change alignment, either you to them or them to you and control their movement that way. See from their point of view, and from their point of view, see the path that would take them to yours. Obviously we don't want police to see from the 'criminals' point of view any more than they already do, rather it should be less, which is why police shouldn't be called out for every little thing. I keep finding myself wanting to call the police and report something, and having to remind myself that this is way below the police and they won't want to waste their time. Police are for law enforcement, not to mediate every petty squabble---just as emergency rooms are for serious injuries, not papercuts and bruises.

Urgent care clinics aren't an attack on emergency rooms, they're not 'defunding' them, the clinics take the pressure off the ERs and give them space to focus on the serious stuff. Preventing overload, so that everyone gets taken care of and no one dies because it was too busy for anyone to see to them. PDs are all panicking, threatening people (I've seen the commercials) with super-long wait times for serious crimes, but do you see people having heart attacks or brought in from a car accident having to wait a day to be seen in the ER because people with the flu or broken bones or infected scratches went to an urgent care instead?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 06:40 PM   #740
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Has this article from The New Yorker been posted?

July 26: Trump’s Dangerous Attempt to Create a Federal Police
Quote:
Last week, President Trump deployed camouflaged border-patrol agents to Portland, Oregon, which has seen almost two months of protests following the murder of George Floyd. The agents have reportedly escalated the violence at protests outside a federal courthouse, and have detained and arrested protesters without explanation on the streets. Trump has since deployed federal law-enforcement agents to Kansas City, Seattle, and Chicago, and has promised to send a “surge” of agents to cities across the country, including New York, Detroit, and Philadelphia. In response to these actions, fifteen mayors signed a letter to Attorney General William Barr and the acting Secretary of Homeland Security, Chad Wolf, demanding “immediate action to withdraw your forces.” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, in a statement, that “the House is committed to moving swiftly to curb these egregious abuses of power immediately,” raising questions about how much power Congress has to curb the sprawling Department of Homeland Security.

To discuss some of these questions, I spoke by phone with Carrie Cordero, a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security and a CNN contributor, who specializes in homeland-security law....
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:44 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
ETA2: On second thought....cops are liars by profession.
I urge you, for your own protection, to never look in as mirror.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:48 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Trumps like to stick his finger in the wind...without the subtlety that most other politicians use. He just puts it out there to see the response.
That gives Trump way too much credit. He doesn't care what's in the wind, he cares solely about he ego. I can think of only one time Trump was swayed by public opinion and that, too, can be equally explained by soothing his ego.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:52 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Always good to know ISF will deliver unrequested critique of my failings, absent any examples or specifics as to why. Sprinkle in completely ignoring any substance from my post to complete this wonderful contribution. Not everyone can put something together so devoid of purpose. For that I say fight on, good sir. I salute you.
OK. I'll refrain from "unrequested" criticizing when I see you requesting criticism.

The specific are in the very post I made and I included myself in the example. Try reading for comprehension, not speed, next time.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 04:39 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I urge you, for your own protection, to never look in as mirror.
?

Is there something you think I lie about? Do you think I have a job where I lie as a component of it?
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Old 4th August 2020, 11:49 AM   #745
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This only makes sense if you think Portland and Seattle are special places that don't follow the same trends of other large cities dealing with civil unrest.
They pretty much were special places though. Nowhere except Seattle did protesters declare themselves autonomous and set up their own little mini-state with no law enforcement allowed in. Nowhere except Portland did protests continue for two months, with continued violence and vandalism at night. Protesters in both of those cities did things that protesters in other cities did NOT do. I don't think you can lay that all at the feet of cops or feds or anyone other than the residents of those cities.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:10 PM   #746
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
They pretty much were special places though. Nowhere except Seattle did protesters declare themselves autonomous and set up their own little mini-state with no law enforcement allowed in. Nowhere except Portland did protests continue for two months, with continued violence and vandalism at night. Protesters in both of those cities did things that protesters in other cities did NOT do. I don't think you can lay that all at the feet of cops or feds or anyone other than the residents of those cities.
Nowhere did cops blanket the streets with tear gas for weeks on end either.

It's a chicken or egg situation. Which comes first, the antifa super soldiers or the cops that keep antagonizing the public with heavy handed suppression. I wager the second.

Reporters I've been following had the impression that the protest movement in Portland was losing steam, like other cities before it, until the Feds showed up and pissed everyone off.

Now that the feds are gone, there are reports of the protest losing momentum again. Assuming PPB can show the tiniest bit of restraint, I would assume that protests will dwindle to nothing within a couple weeks, as they have everywhere else.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:10 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ah, the rolleyes smiley, SOP for those incapable of refuting an argument
You didn't make an argument...
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:11 PM   #748
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
If Trump is to be believed, no one likes Trump.
Ooooh... now there's a paradox.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:33 PM   #749
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
False. When left leaning politicians lie their supporters generally do care. The difference is that this only applies to actual lies and not the “lies” right wing sheep hear about inside their information bubble.
Partisans on both sides will justify the falsehoods of their party with about equal zeal. Trump's idiocy makes it easy to see perhaps... but at the same time, many democratic partisans will take anything he says that has any way of being misinterpreted and blow it out of proportion.

Example of the first: How much effort was put into justifying Obama's promise that if you liked your current coverage you would be able to keep it?

Example of the latter: How many people continue to feign confusion over what 'covfefe' was supposed to be, and pretend that it is evidence of Trump being dumb rather than a run-of-the-mill typo with an auto-correct fail?

There's quite a bit of study in the fields of psychology and sociology that touch on this element of tribalism. Some of it is confirmation bias, some of it is gate-keeping of information, some of it is attribution of intent, some of it is the illusion of asymmetric insight. It's a well-established behavioral pattern in humans.

Don't be misled into thinking that "the other side" does any of these things "worse" or "more often" than your own side does. It's what humans do when they have a strong sense of resonance with a given identity. It's not unique to any group; it's part and parcel of group dynamics of all sorts.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:35 PM   #750
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do you think that trolling is proper behavior for the President of the United States? That suggesting without any evidence that the election will be illegitimate is a proper thing for the President to do?
You know... it's possible to recognize it as trolling while simultaneously not approving of it. Honestly, that kind of sums up my entire view of trolling irrespective of the venue: it's probably not intended seriously but I still don't approve of it.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:39 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Ooooh... now there's a paradox.
The following sentence is true.
The preceding sentence is not true.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:40 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The Mueller report outlined enough evidence to conclude there was a conspiracy.
I think you may be confused. Mueller's report outlined more than sufficient evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump. Mueller's report, however, was pretty clear that no evidence of conspiracy was found.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:44 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Come on Zig. We're all in the same room. You can't tell us we didn't see the evidence we saw. Were you asleep?
Where do you draw the line between speculation and insinuation versus evidence?
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:47 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Example of the first: How much effort was put into justifying Obama's promise that if you liked your current coverage you would be able to keep it?
And you would, they just didn't force the companies to continue to offer all plans that could be grandfathered in. It was the insurance company not the government doing the taking away.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:48 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think you may be confused. Mueller's report outlined more than sufficient evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump. Mueller's report, however, was pretty clear that no evidence of conspiracy was found.
And obstruction of justice is of course never something that anyone needs to worry about. That is all nice and legal.
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:55 PM   #756
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nowhere did cops blanket the streets with tear gas for weeks on end either.

It's a chicken or egg situation. Which comes first, the antifa super soldiers or the cops that keep antagonizing the public with heavy handed suppression. I wager the second.

Reporters I've been following had the impression that the protest movement in Portland was losing steam, like other cities before it, until the Feds showed up and pissed everyone off.

Now that the feds are gone, there are reports of the protest losing momentum again. Assuming PPB can show the tiniest bit of restraint, I would assume that protests will dwindle to nothing within a couple weeks, as they have everywhere else.
What I find most interesting is that Seattle and Portland are two of the most liberal cities in the nation, both with very light-handed police systems in general, and with a LOT of community outreach focus that seeks to treat problems rather than criminalizing them. Two of the bluest and most leftiest of the blue-left cities there are. And they both saw higher levels of violence, looting, and vandalism than elsewhere, and both felt the need to respond with force. Both also effectively stopped responding to the bad actors completely - Seattle surrendered an area of Capitol Hill, and Portland cops simply stopped trying to contain the looting at all.

On the other hand, some of the reddiest of rightyvilles, like Arizona, had peaceful protests, with a reasonable curfew (that wasn't really enforced), and that could clearly identify the opportunistic looters (white kids in Scottsdale) from the legitimate protesters.

Why do you think that the leftiest bluetowns had such an uncharacteristically extreme response, while the rightiest of redburgs managed to hold themselves together? Do you think there might be a difference in culture? Maybe... just spitballing... some kind of deep-seated anarchist movement that has raised its head throughout the past several decades?
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:57 PM   #757
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think you may be confused. Mueller's report outlined more than sufficient evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump. Mueller's report, however, was pretty clear that no evidence of conspiracy was found.
That's a stretch. But it's off topic here.
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Old 4th August 2020, 01:01 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What I find most interesting is that Seattle and Portland are two of the most liberal cities in the nation, both with very light-handed police systems in general, and with a LOT of community outreach focus that seeks to treat problems rather than criminalizing them. Two of the bluest and most leftiest of the blue-left cities there are. And they both saw higher levels of violence, looting, and vandalism than elsewhere, and both felt the need to respond with force. Both also effectively stopped responding to the bad actors completely - Seattle surrendered an area of Capitol Hill, and Portland cops simply stopped trying to contain the looting at all.

On the other hand, some of the reddiest of rightyvilles, like Arizona, had peaceful protests, with a reasonable curfew (that wasn't really enforced), and that could clearly identify the opportunistic looters (white kids in Scottsdale) from the legitimate protesters.

Why do you think that the leftiest bluetowns had such an uncharacteristically extreme response, while the rightiest of redburgs managed to hold themselves together? Do you think there might be a difference in culture? Maybe... just spitballing... some kind of deep-seated anarchist movement that has raised its head throughout the past several decades?
Didn't you used to live in this area? Because that's a weird idea of what you think Seattle is like and what happened here (still happening).
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 4th August 2020, 01:03 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Didn't you used to live in this area? Because that's a weird idea of what you think Seattle is like and what happened here (still happening).
Indeed. This characterization is so far off base I don't even know where to begin.

Portland and Seattle are indeed quite blue. People trying to paint this as a Trump problem are way off base. Big city democrats have a long and proud history of running quite brutal police departments, and voting "blue" is no cure to these thuggish cops.
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Old 4th August 2020, 01:37 PM   #760
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How quickly the memories of the WTO protests fade. Cops videoed kicking some guy in the crotch, I knew that cop and when I gently brought it up in casual conversation in the police department they all jumped down my throat defending the guy's actions. And he was a real jerk at other times too.

Then there was the cop who sprayed pepper spray in a woman's face as she sat in her car, unable to get away. The person in the passenger seat got a video of it.

Oh yeah, Seattle is so soft on protesters.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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