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Tags defamation cases , lawsuits , media criticism , Nathan Phillips , Nick Sandmann , protest incidents , racism charges

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Old 28th July 2020, 01:05 AM   #2441
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think he has a point. If there was a confidentiality agreement, then the journalists are clearly breaching it by tweeting about it* even if it is their 'private' twitter and they claim they are just reposting 'gossip' in their private capacity.

If this becomes common, someone gossips about it, then the gossipee posts the gossip from an anonymous source then the gossiper reposts; it destroys confidence in making confidentiality agreements with the press. Now one may argue about whether these confidentiality agreements are a good thing but one can imagine circumstances when they are helpful to making a settlement on both sides.

*Whether the facts are true or not.
Right. Speculating about something you don't know which concerns a confidentiality agreement for a company you work for.........well, that is a really bad idea for number of reason.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:10 AM   #2442
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Who exactly is bound by a confidentiality agreement? Is it just the parties to the agreement, or does it extend beyond that?

Am *I* not allowed to speculate on what the settlement might be?
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:26 AM   #2443
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Who exactly is bound by a confidentiality agreement? Is it just the parties to the agreement, or does it extend beyond that?

Am *I* not allowed to speculate on what the settlement might be?
What a ridiculous question. Do you work for a company that settled?
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:29 AM   #2444
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
He also Twitted this gem:

https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1287074713899094017



He seems like an idiot.
His views on that have no bearing on his reputation in the type of litigation being discussed. His record on that is clear. There are plenty of idiots who are good at what they do for a living.
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:32 AM   #2445
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
His views on that have no bearing on his reputation in the type of litigation being discussed. His record on that is clear. There are plenty of idiots who are good at what they do for a living.
Threats of litigation are a dime a dozen. I don't really give his twitter raging much weight unless he actually files.

Given the high publicity of this case, it's important to parse out the posturing for the public and the actual practice of the law.
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:52 AM   #2446
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
What a ridiculous question. Do you work for a company that settled?
No, I don't. So what's the answer to the question? Who IS bound by a confidentiality agreement?
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:58 AM   #2447
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
His views on that have no bearing on his reputation in the type of litigation being discussed. His record on that is clear. There are plenty of idiots who are good at what they do for a living.
No doubt. Doesn't mean he's not an idiot - he plainly is. A QAnon follower must be - pretty much by definition.

His Twitter feed is hilarious incidentally - it mainly consists of him telling people he's blocked them.
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:58 AM   #2448
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, I don't. So what's the answer to the question? Who IS bound by a confidentiality agreement?
hard to say, it's probably defined in the NDA that can't be disclosed. The NDA can only bind those that sign to it, so nobody outside of these organizations has any reason to worry. It's an agreement, not a court order, nobody that isn't involved in the agreement is free to speculate.

I have no idea how this works. Would it cover everyone at the news org that signed it, or just the immediately involved journalists? It's a negotiated agreement between these two parties, it could be broad or narrow or somewhere in between.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:33 AM   #2449
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, I don't. So what's the answer to the question? Who IS bound by a confidentiality agreement?
Only the parties to an agreement can be bound by the agreement. But the agreement with the company could specify behavior for employees of the company, with the company obliged to take action if those employees violate those specified behaviors. In other words, the company could be bound by the settlement to act against an employee even if the employee is not directly bound by the settlement.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:45 AM   #2450
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Threats of litigation are a dime a dozen. I don't really give his twitter raging much weight unless he actually files.

Given the high publicity of this case, it's important to parse out the posturing for the public and the actual practice of the law.

You could have said that when he made the initial threat to sue, and you'd be wrong. I get that most threats are just that, threats, this is a bit different.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:48 AM   #2451
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No doubt. Doesn't mean he's not an idiot - he plainly is. A QAnon follower must be - pretty much by definition.

His Twitter feed is hilarious incidentally - it mainly consists of him telling people he's blocked them.

LOL, I've never understood those that block people that disagree with them rather than engaging. I get your point on the QAnon. I'm just saying him being an idiot has no bearing on his legal skills, he's pretty good when it comes to that.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:52 AM   #2452
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
hard to say, it's probably defined in the NDA that can't be disclosed. The NDA can only bind those that sign to it, so nobody outside of these organizations has any reason to worry. It's an agreement, not a court order, nobody that isn't involved in the agreement is free to speculate.

I have no idea how this works. Would it cover everyone at the news org that signed it, or just the immediately involved journalists? It's a negotiated agreement between these two parties, it could be broad or narrow or somewhere in between.
I'm betting it covers the news organization as a whole. When he sued, it was the organization, not the individuals. Those individuals work for the organization though. Their twitter feeds could be construed to be outlets of their job, as they are used to promote and disseminate facets of the organization they work for, and job titles are prominently displayed.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:53 AM   #2453
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, I don't. So what's the answer to the question? Who IS bound by a confidentiality agreement?
That's a better question than if YOU would be bound.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:55 AM   #2454
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I feel bad for Sandmann. In the interview I saw with him early on, he seemed a shy and unobtrusive kid. He is going to have a rough time being seen as anything but a right-wing icon, now. That's sure to throttle his worldview down a few notches. How long till he escapes that role?
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:56 AM   #2455
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FWIW Stelter deleted his tweet. Read into that what you want.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:58 AM   #2456
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I feel bad for Sandmann. In the interview I saw with him early on, he seemed a shy and unobtrusive kid. He is going to have a rough time being seen as anything but a right-wing icon, now. That's sure to throttle his worldview down a few notches. How long till he escapes that role?
He's pretty young. I can see why he might have felt wronged, but I wonder if he really understood that he was being set up as some sort of right-wing champion in the fight against the Lying Mainstream MediaTM. People's interest in his case wasn't just about his little showdown in DC, it was just another battle in the great partisan media wars.

That said, I find it hard to believe that this story is really going to be in many people's minds even 5 years from now.
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Old 28th July 2020, 09:16 AM   #2457
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
He's pretty young. I can see why he might have felt wronged, but I wonder if he really understood that he was being set up as some sort of right-wing champion in the fight against the Lying Mainstream MediaTM. People's interest in his case wasn't just about his little showdown in DC, it was just another battle in the great partisan media wars.

That said, I find it hard to believe that this story is really going to be in many people's minds even 5 years from now.

Anyone can go to the first post in this thread to see "why he felt wronged." You're characterization of the whole episode is quite funny.
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Old 28th July 2020, 09:21 AM   #2458
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Anyone can go to the first post in this thread to see "why he felt wronged." You're characterization of the whole episode is quite funny.
I think Sandmann has a legitimate grievance against these companies. I just wonder if he realized that much of the interest in his case was about a conflict much bigger than his personal calamity. I hope he was, at least, a willing pawn in the larger culture war, and not just some sucker.

If he paid out of pocket for any of this legal representation, he likely got scammed.
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Old 28th July 2020, 11:25 AM   #2459
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
That's a better question than if YOU would be bound.

Itís the question I asked initially!
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:02 PM   #2460
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know how much Nick Sandmann got, but because of the nature of the deep pocketed corporations, I'm guessing it was a whole bunch. I know his lawyers were asking for one gazillion dollars, but they probably settled for....how much? A few hundred thousand? Any less than that and they might as well not have settled at all. It would come out of the petty cash drawer. Maybe a million or more? That's a lot of money.

It's a weird system we have in America. "Punitive damages" can turn someone from any ordinary person to a rich person even though what happened wasn't all that bad. That's weird. It's the system, but it's weird. If indeed he got one million dollars or more as a result of this incident, it was in fact the luckiest day of his life.
I tend to disagree with your framing of it as the luckiest day of Sandmann's life. I get that it might be a lot of money... but I'm not entirely sure that money makes it all better. I'm not really sure what does appropriately compensate for the treatment that Sandmann was subject to as a direct result of false reporting.

That said, I doubt that the intent of the suits was to "make it better" for Sandmann, so much as it was to "make it hurt" for the news outlets that set this mess off.

And FWIW, I still run across people out in interwebsland who firmly believe that Sandmann and his fellow students deserved the doxxing and death threats and mistreatment they received because... I don't know. Because they had on trump hats? Because they were white? Because they were initially painted as evil-doers and people are loathe to change their minds? It makes no sense to me, but I regularly run across people who will still claim that he deserved the treatment that he got and that him winning the suits is a travesty.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:07 PM   #2461
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Given that this case never had much chance of success and was largely about publicity, it's a job well done.
Why would it not have had much chance of success? I'm not sure I'm following.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:10 PM   #2462
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Why would it not have had much chance of success? I'm not sure I'm following.
Suing a news organization for a false story is always an uphill climb in the US.

In the first go-around, all 33 claims of Sandmann's suit were dismissed, and only 3 were saved on appeal because the judge admitted there was a possibility that evidence could exist to substantiate them.

Sandmann may have been defamed, but probably by the man at the rally who spun the BS story, not the newspapers who reported it uncritically. Unless there is evidence showing that these agencies knew it was a false story and ran it maliciously, 1A protections are very broad.

Consider the Alex Jones case, which is also a long shot. You can be a lousy "journalist" and still have very broad speech protections in this country.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:14 PM   #2463
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think Sandmann has a legitimate grievance against these companies. I just wonder if he realized that much of the interest in his case was about a conflict much bigger than his personal calamity. I hope he was, at least, a willing pawn in the larger culture war, and not just some sucker.
I'm a lot more inclined to view him as a victim in this than as wither a pawn or a sucker.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:25 PM   #2464
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm a lot more inclined to view him as a victim in this than as wither a pawn or a sucker.
The people that are supporting his attacks on WaPo and others have an axe to grind that goes well beyond bad reporting about the Covington case.

That's my point. They don't really care about Sandmann beyond seeing his bad experience as an avenue of attack against their political enemies. His best interests aren't really the motivating concern for the culture warriors. I hope that he was at least aware of that and a willing participant.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:30 PM   #2465
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm a lot more inclined to view him as a victim in this than as wither a pawn or a sucker.
That doesn't fit the narrative of those who want to see him as an evil person who got what he deserved because he was white and wore a MAGA hat.
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Old 28th July 2020, 01:34 PM   #2466
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The people that are supporting his attacks on WaPo and others have an axe to grind that goes well beyond bad reporting about the Covington case.

That's my point. They don't really care about Sandmann beyond seeing his bad experience as an avenue of attack against their political enemies. His best interests aren't really the motivating concern for the culture warriors. I hope that he was at least aware of that and a willing participant.
Wow! You appear to be projecting your own way of thinking onto your political foes. Not a good look to be sure.
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Old 28th July 2020, 02:10 PM   #2467
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The people that are supporting his attacks on WaPo and others have an axe to grind that goes well beyond bad reporting about the Covington case.

That's my point. They don't really care about Sandmann beyond seeing his bad experience as an avenue of attack against their political enemies. His best interests aren't really the motivating concern for the culture warriors. I hope that he was at least aware of that and a willing participant.
Very true.

ETA: Well, let me pull that back a bit.

It isn't about Sandmann. It's about Sandmann and a bunch of others like him. It's about bad journalism in general. It's about journalism that goes for clickbait stories without corroboration. Yes, WaPo is in that category these days.

so, the people attacking WaPo on this story are not specifically attacking them because they (we?) feel bad about one high school kid from Kentucky, or one kid from Kentucky and his classmates. It's about bad journalism in general that seems to frame everything in political terms and seems willing to throw people to the wolves in order to get eyeballs on their story, and typically does it all with a view toward a political slant that will appeal to their audience.

Nick Sandmann was nothing to the Washington Post. They didn't care about him as a person. However, as a symbol, they liked the Maga-hat wearing kid whose picture was taken at a moment where a story could be spun around it. They fit their narrative onto the picture, and threw out the people in the process. "Maga brats mock Native American" makes a good story that their readers would eat up. The fact that it was false is not something really important
.
Note: That's not the article title. It's the thread title. In other words, it is one reader's translation of the mainstream coverage of this event.

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Old 28th July 2020, 02:33 PM   #2468
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The people that are supporting his attacks on WaPo and others have an axe to grind that goes well beyond bad reporting about the Covington case.

That's my point. They don't really care about Sandmann beyond seeing his bad experience as an avenue of attack against their political enemies. His best interests aren't really the motivating concern for the culture warriors. I hope that he was at least aware of that and a willing participant.
It's balanced out by the fact that WaPo et al. don't really care about Sandmann beyond seeing his bad experience as an avenue of attack against their political enemies. His best interests aren't really the motivating concern for the mainstream media and their allies in the culture wars. I hope that you are at least aware of this and a willing participant.

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Old 28th July 2020, 02:40 PM   #2469
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's balanced out by the fact that WaPo et al. don't really care about Sandmann beyond seeing his bad experience as an avenue of attack against their political enemies.

Your concern is as absurd as it is misplaced.
That's a better way of saying what I was trying to say.

However, I would say that at least some of the media that attacked Sandmann wasn't genuinely seeing him and his classmates as a way of attacking political enemies. That would imply sincerity on their behalf. I think it's equally likely that they really don't care, as long as they get advertising revenue, but they've decided that slanted stories like this one play well to their readership, and result in lots of clicks.

So, some of them have political bias that reflects that of the editors and/or employees, while some of them have just noticed that bias works to draw in viewers. I can't tell which outlets are which, and I'm sure there's a mix within the outlets themselves.

I have a very cynical view of the media these days, but it seems to fit what I see.
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Old 29th July 2020, 04:10 AM   #2470
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Very true.

ETA: Well, let me pull that back a bit.

It isn't about Sandmann. It's about Sandmann and a bunch of others like him. It's about bad journalism in general. It's about journalism that goes for clickbait stories without corroboration. Yes, WaPo is in that category these days.

so, the people attacking WaPo on this story are not specifically attacking them because they (we?) feel bad about one high school kid from Kentucky, or one kid from Kentucky and his classmates. It's about bad journalism in general that seems to frame everything in political terms and seems willing to throw people to the wolves in order to get eyeballs on their story, and typically does it all with a view toward a political slant that will appeal to their audience.

Nick Sandmann was nothing to the Washington Post. They didn't care about him as a person. However, as a symbol, they liked the Maga-hat wearing kid whose picture was taken at a moment where a story could be spun around it. They fit their narrative onto the picture, and threw out the people in the process. "Maga brats mock Native American" makes a good story that their readers would eat up. The fact that it was false is not something really important
.
Note: That's not the article title. It's the thread title. In other words, it is one reader's translation of the mainstream coverage of this event.
This whole episode has been rightly embarrassing for respected institutions like WaPo or NYTimes. Clearly a failure of their standards for them to go running blind after some salacious story. The egg on their face is rightly deserved, though I don't think the litigation did much to twist the knife. It still seems very likely that this "settlement" was not a significant blow and, from a strictly financial/legal perspective, Sandmann's litigation failed.

As far as the cable outlets, nobody really expects much of them anyway. 24hr cable news is garbage pretty much across the board, so I'm not at all surprised they botched the story. Are they even capable of shame?

If Sandmann and the other Covington kids got their legal representation pro-bono or on contingency, I'd say they they probably did ok. If they paid any of their own money for this PR stunt litigation, they got fleeced in service to the broader culture war.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:22 AM   #2471
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An example of why it is not good to jump to conclusions?

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And FWIW, I still run across people out in interwebsland who firmly believe that Sandmann and his fellow students deserved the doxxing and death threats and mistreatment they received because... I don't know. Because they had on trump hats? Because they were white? Because they were initially painted as evil-doers and people are loathe to change their minds? It makes no sense to me, but I regularly run across people who will still claim that he deserved the treatment that he got and that him winning the suits is a travesty.
I was thinking about using this incident in a Facebook discussion as a good example why one should not jump to conclusions (especially with respect to doxxing). However, if some people have yet to jump back, I guess that I won't bother.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:38 AM   #2472
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And FWIW, I still run across people out in interwebsland who firmly believe that Sandmann and his fellow students deserved the doxxing and death threats and mistreatment they received because... I don't know. Because they had on trump hats?
Well, yes. That's exactly why. People in this thread gave that very justification.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:48 AM   #2473
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If Sandmann and the other Covington kids got their legal representation pro-bono or on contingency, I'd say they they probably did ok. If they paid any of their own money for this PR stunt litigation, they got fleeced in service to the broader culture war.
I would assume that it was provided on contingency, by lawyers salivating at getting a piece of the pie.

Once again, though, that's an assumption.
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:02 AM   #2474
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Speaking of John McWhorter, he did a pretty good job of calling this one early on his podcast at a time when almost everyone thought there was at least more truth to the story than there turned out to be.

He said he saw that particular photo of Sandmann wearing the MAGA hat and noticed the smirk on his face. He said he immediately just knew that it was a photo selected from a very particular point in time to suggest a certain context and that it was all bogus.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:33 PM   #2475
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I would assume that it was provided on contingency, by lawyers salivating at getting a piece of the pie.

Once again, though, that's an assumption.
Sure, but it's also the most likely scenario. There certainly would have been lawyers willing to take it on contingency, and since the defendants have deep enough pockets to collect on, that's really the best setup for the plaintiff.
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