ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , Mary Trump , presidential candidates , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 10th July 2020, 09:15 PM   #161
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,541
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Medical professionals don't use the word "crazy" at all. That said, I'm convinced that psychological problems are at the root of his issues.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's true for everyone, though. What else would it be? Alien mind control rays?
Fair enough. Doesn't make him any less nuts.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2020, 09:52 PM   #162
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 82,112
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Stacy, please. Theprestige is right. He's saying that placing your title on a book when that title is irrelevant to the topic of said book is silly. That's entirely independant of whether diagnosis at a distance is possible or reasonable.
And yet the book isn't out yet. So you and TP are going by the snippets the news chose to highlight.

We might be looking for confirmation of the 'Trump is mentally ill' thread. The news media may as well. For all we know that is a small part of the book.

I don't think people that haven't read the book or at least skimmed the chapters can possibly say the title doesn't reflect the contents of the book.
__________________
ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2020, 09:55 PM   #163
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 82,112
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This question regarding Mary Trump putting her degree on the cover of the book is a red herring. I doubt a soul buying the book cares about the degree.

I don't need a clinical psychologist to tell me that Donald Trump has serious psychological problems. A fifth grader can see that the man is batcrap crazy.
Given I'm deep into the writing world with my book, I have learned a lot of these decisions are the prerogative of the editor. Believe it or not, the publisher's editor makes a lot of decisions about the cover and the title.
__________________
ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2020, 10:09 PM   #164
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,541
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Given I'm deep into the writing world with my book, I have learned a lot of these decisions are the prerogative of the editor. Believe it or not, the publisher's editor makes a lot of decisions about the cover and the title.
I don't doubt it. Prestige is not necessarily wrong that an editor may have thought adding Mary's title would sell more books. I just doubt that on this particular book, that degree makes much difference.

But I also know that if an author wants something and it is easily granted, they are likely to satisfy that desire.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2020, 10:36 PM   #165
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,144
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think they're fine where they are. My only goal was to post an amusing sidebar about academic degrees next to author's names on book covers. The original positions of the posts were more than adequate for that purpose. Why? Do you think they should be somewhere else?
I think maybe you just Googled "people who put PhD on their book covers" which takes me straight to Quora. "Apparently there is some debate" is a nifty little phrase, great for injecting innuendo. Called on it the poster can then say, "Who, moi? I was just teaching the controversy!"

"There's some debate" about every damn thing. There's a debate about whether the Earth is flat or spherical. It's a meaningless phrase designed IMO to distract, and it pisses me off that the right seems so much more skillful than the left at dropping these little gems. Is there a playbook or did you come up with that on your own?
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2020, 11:22 PM   #166
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,144
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's true for everyone, though. What else would it be? Alien mind control rays?
At the core of things, maybe it's all biological. Based on our genes and the relentless conditioning of childhood. Trump is who he has to be. He learned to covet what he saw every day, and how to get it.

I'm mildly interested in the book but nowhere near enough to buy it.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2020, 04:40 AM   #167
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 20,514
I wonder if CNN could get Mary Trump to do color commentary during the Republican convention next month.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2020, 07:04 AM   #168
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,436
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The way I see it, wanting to write a biography is more than enough qualification to write a biography. Doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a *good* biography, though. And obvs being related to someone is no guarantee of quality in a biography. And - here's the thing - having a Ph.D. is also no guarantee. But you put it on the cover, and it gives the impression the writing in the book may be a cut above.
So in Reductio ad absurdum you should not put the author's name or the tittle of the book on the cover because potential readers might be unduly influenced?
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2020, 07:55 AM   #169
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 12,894
Any Trump with actual credentials and an actual career would probably want to feature that information in an effort to differentiate themselves from Trump's who profit solely from their name.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 02:25 AM   #170
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,704
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And yet the book isn't out yet. So you and TP are going by the snippets the news chose to highlight.
What do you mean "me"? I haven't said anything about this issue. I've clarified what theprestige is saying and why.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 07:46 AM   #171
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,489
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
So in Reductio ad absurdum you should not put the author's name or the tittle of the book on the cover because potential readers might be unduly influenced? : boggled :
How do you figure? An author's body of work is probably the best indicator of the quality of their next book. Knowing who wrote the book is probably the second most relevant piece of informatio a publisher can put on the cover.

On the other hand, if it's their first book, and they have no track record as an author, the publisher might be tempted to find some other way to attract interest.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 07:50 AM   #172
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,489
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And yet the book isn't out yet. So you and TP are going by the snippets the news chose to highlight.
What do you mean, "the news chose"? As far as I know, no media outlet has chosen to highlight this.

Quote:
We might be looking for confirmation of the 'Trump is mentally ill' thread. The news media may as well. For all we know that is a small part of the book.
You're actually sticking with the idea that the "Ph.D." on the cover signals a professoinal diagnosis of Trump's mental state in the book?

Quote:
I don't think people that haven't read the book or at least skimmed the chapters can possibly say the title doesn't reflect the contents of the book.
Nobody is talking about the title of the book.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 07:57 AM   #173
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 56,433
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nobody is talking about the title of the book.
Yeah, the title is pretty lame. What made them go with such a long title, and a dull one?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 08:28 AM   #174
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,489
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, the title is pretty lame. What made them go with such a long title, and a dull one?
I hope this is a rhetorical question. I'm not sure I ever actually noticed the title. If I did I've forgotten it, and I can't be bothered to look it up again.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 08:51 AM   #175
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,420
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're actually sticking with the idea that the "Ph.D." on the cover signals a professoinal diagnosis of Trump's mental state in the book?
A family member who does not like Donald Trump -who has an axe to grind because of the way DJT treated her father- and happens to be a clinical psychologist will have something authoritative to say about his mental state. Yup, that is perfectly consistent with the way SG and many others think mental health should be practiced.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 11:47 AM   #176
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 56,433
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hope this is a rhetorical question. I'm not sure I ever actually noticed the title. If I did I've forgotten it, and I can't be bothered to look it up again.
Exactly, it's that dull. It's "Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the Worldís Most Dangerous Man". It takes work to make hyperbole dull, but they managed it there.

I'd have named it "Orange Foolius".
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 12:27 PM   #177
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,489
I mean, the arrogance of it is kind of exciting.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 12:33 PM   #178
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 10,994
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
A family member who does not like Donald Trump -who has an axe to grind because of the way DJT treated her father- and happens to be a clinical psychologist will have something authoritative to say about his mental state. Yup, that is perfectly consistent with the way SG and many others think mental health should be practiced.
She has observed him extensively and intimately for decades, and she has the education and training to understand and interpret what she sees. She's not treating a patient. She's sharing her knowledge with the community she lives in.

It continues to astonish that you claim that laypeople aren't qualified to assess Trump's fitness, and then that people who are fully qualified should keep their mouths shut. When the Emperor is dancing down the street drunk and naked, who gets to say so?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 12:49 PM   #179
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 56,433
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, the arrogance of it is kind of exciting.
....I didn't realize you were into that sort of thing. My, my! *hawk screech*
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 12:54 PM   #180
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,214
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
....I didn't realize you were into that sort of thing. My, my! *hawk screech*
Damn it, there goes my forum slash pool chances.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 01:21 PM   #181
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,489
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
....I didn't realize you were into that sort of thing. My, my! *hawk screech*
Huh. You don't just assume that anyone who voted for Trump has a fetish for unearned confidence?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 01:25 PM   #182
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 56,433
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Huh. You don't just assume that anyone who voted for Trump has a fetish for unearned confidence?
I never assume anything about anyone. You know what they say about assumption, I assume. I don't know myself, but I reference it frequently. And giggle in a knowing manner.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 01:26 PM   #183
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,420
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
She has observed him extensively and intimately for decades, and she has the education and training to understand and interpret what she sees. She's not treating a patient. She's sharing her knowledge with the community she lives in.

It continues to astonish that you claim that laypeople aren't qualified to assess Trump's fitness, and then that people who are fully qualified should keep their mouths shut. When the Emperor is dancing down the street drunk and naked, who gets to say so?
Would you agree that clinicians who are closely related to a subject should not practice their clinical judgement on those people? Like, my wife should not be my doctor or prescribe medications for me. Or that cousin who I had a falling out with -and also happens to be a clinical psychologist- maybe shouldn't psychoanalyze me.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 02:26 PM   #184
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,489
I've always assumed that historians made the best biographers. At least the best biographies seem to have been written by historians.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 04:49 PM   #185
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 14,327
CNN: Judge rules Mary Trump is free to talk about her book. Restraining order lifted.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 06:07 PM   #186
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 10,994
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Would you agree that clinicians who are closely related to a subject should not practice their clinical judgement on those people? Like, my wife should not be my doctor or prescribe medications for me. Or that cousin who I had a falling out with -and also happens to be a clinical psychologist- maybe shouldn't psychoanalyze me.
No, actually I wouldn't. If you thought your chest pains were indigestion and your wife thought they were symptoms of a heart attack, I would expect her to get you to a hospital. If your cousin observed you to display erratic and abusive behavior, I hope he would formally object to you adopting a child or taking on a public service job.

It just doesn't make any sense to claim professionals can't use their expert knowledge to interpret and report what they see in front of them.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 06:37 PM   #187
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,420
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
No, actually I wouldn't. If you thought your chest pains were indigestion and your wife thought they were symptoms of a heart attack, I would expect her to get you to a hospital. If your cousin observed you to display erratic and abusive behavior, I hope he would formally object to you adopting a child or taking on a public service job.

It just doesn't make any sense to claim professionals can't use their expert knowledge to interpret and report what they see in front of them.

In an emergency, yeah, my wife should treat me if sheís the only one around. But thatís not what I asked and thatís not whatís happening here. We have an estranged niece, axe to grind.

My cousin who hates me should not be my psychologist. Would you agree with that?

Actually, it doesnít matter if you agree or not. Itís against Board rules for family members to treat family. Itís also against ethical rules. The inherent biases for or against a person clouds professional judgement.

My point is that yup, thatís the way a lot of people on this forum think mental health diagnosis should work.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 07:00 PM   #188
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 82,112
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What do you mean "me"? I haven't said anything about this issue. I've clarified what theprestige is saying and why.
You said this:
Quote:
Theprestige is right. He's saying that placing your title on a book when that title is irrelevant to the topic of said book is silly.
We don't know if said credentials were relevant or not because the book wasn't out yet.
__________________
ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 07:01 PM   #189
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 82,112
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
A family member who does not like Donald Trump -who has an axe to grind because of the way DJT treated her father- and happens to be a clinical psychologist will have something authoritative to say about his mental state. Yup, that is perfectly consistent with the way SG and many others think mental health should be practiced.
So you've read the book then?
__________________
ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 07:13 PM   #190
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,420
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you've read the book then?

No, I havenít. But you said that you might be looking for confirmation of the ďTrump is mentally ill,Ē thread.

Youíd agree that Mary Trump, estranged niece of DJT, is not in a position to confirm anything regarding his mental illness?
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 08:10 PM   #191
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,541
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No, I havenít. But you said that you might be looking for confirmation of the ďTrump is mentally ill,Ē thread.

Youíd agree that Mary Trump, estranged niece of DJT, is not in a position to confirm anything regarding his mental illness?
Why would he agree to that?
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 08:19 PM   #192
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 10,994
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
.....
My point is that yup, that’s the way a lot of people on this forum think mental health diagnosis should work.
You insist on confusing diagnosis and treatment. Treatment requires a specific kind of therapeutic relationship that includes a variety of restrictions. Diagnosis is part of treatment, but diagnosis alone means interpreting observable facts in light of expert knowledge and experience. There's no good reason why Mary Trump or the Yale psychiatrists or anyone else can't say "here's what we see in front of us, and in our opinion here's what it means."

They are not treating a patient, any more than a forensic psychiatrist who decides whether a criminal is fit to be executed is treating his "patient." They are serving their community. The community is entitled to know and understand as much as we can about our most powerful public official, especially when his obvious psychiatric disabilities influence his policy judgments.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th July 2020 at 08:22 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 08:26 PM   #193
Susheel
Graduate Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 1,565
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You insist on confusing diagnosis with treatment...They are not treating a patient, any more than a forensic psychiatrist who decides whether a criminal is fit to be executed is treating his "patient." They are servingtheircommunity...
^^ This.
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 10:20 PM   #194
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,420
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You insist on confusing diagnosis and treatment. Treatment requires a specific kind of therapeutic relationship that includes a variety of restrictions. Diagnosis is part of treatment, but diagnosis alone means interpreting observable facts in light of expert knowledge and experience. There's no good reason why Mary Trump or the Yale psychiatrists or anyone else can't say "here's what we see in front of us, and in our opinion here's what it means."

They are not treating a patient, any more than a forensic psychiatrist who decides whether a criminal is fit to be executed is treating his "patient." They are serving their community. The community is entitled to know and understand as much as we can about our most powerful public official, especially when his obvious psychiatric disabilities influence his policy judgments.

Iím not confusing anything. A clinician who has a bias against a subject should not be diagnosing or treating that subject. Biases cloud judgement.

Itís hard to think of a clinician who is less qualified, on that basis, to diagnose Donald Trump.

The fact that Iím getting push back on that plain fact says everything that needs to be said.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2020, 10:45 PM   #195
Susheel
Graduate Poster
 
Susheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 1,565
"I’m not confusing anything. A clinician who has a bias against a subject should not be diagnosing or treating that subject."

You just contradicted your first sentence with the second.
__________________
I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon
Susheel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2020, 07:39 AM   #196
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,420
Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
"I’m not confusing anything. A clinician who has a bias against a subject should not be diagnosing or treating that subject."

You just contradicted your first sentence with the second.
Nope, there's no contradiction there.

You are separating diagnosis from treatment; however, both require clinical objectivity which a close relationship threatens. Perhaps a more succinct statement is this: A clinician who has a bias for or against a subject should not be practicing medicine on that subject.

Now, this is completely uncontroversial in medicine. The fact that the idea gets so much flack here, I put down to seeking confirmation of personal biases. If Mary Trump says he's dangerously mentally ill, well by golly, she knows him so she has to be right, right?

ETA: Having not read the book, I would bet that Mary Trump will not directly diagnose Donald Trump even if she skirts around the issue. I would expect her to start with a disclaimer about her lack of objectivity and that she isn't diagnosing anything.
__________________
Hello.

Last edited by xjx388; 14th July 2020 at 07:41 AM.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2020, 07:43 AM   #197
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,704
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You said this:We don't know if said credentials were relevant or not because the book wasn't out yet.
Yeah but that doesn't change that he's right about when such credentials are pertinent.

That's what I was calling correct.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2020, 07:47 AM   #198
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 8,420
This statement from the book, should tell us all we need to know about Mary Trump's objectivity:

Quote:
Mary Trump has a simple reason for writing this book.
"Donald, following the lead of my grandfather and with the complicity, silence and inaction of his siblings, destroyed my father. I can’t let him destroy my country.”
Now, I am NOT saying that she is wrong in her feelings. I think they are well justified from her POV. What I am saying is that those feelings cloud clinical judgement and therefore, you won't find any confirmation of DJT's mental illness in the pages of her book.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2020, 07:51 AM   #199
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,489
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you've read the book then? : rolleyes :
I don't need to read the book to know it's being published as a lay biography, not as an academic work.

You seem pretty committed to the idea that this biography could contain medical scholarship. Do you find that happens a lot, in the biographies you read?

Don't get me wrong. I agree that biographies very often contain a lot of scholarship. Only, it tends to be in the field of history, for obvious reasons. Or journalism, for contemporary subjects.

You'd think there'd be more hype, for this book being one of the rare breed of medical biographies.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2020, 09:14 AM   #200
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,436
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't need to read the book to know it's being published as a lay biography, not as an academic work.

You seem pretty committed to the idea that this biography could contain medical scholarship. Do you find that happens a lot, in the biographies you read?

Don't get me wrong. I agree that biographies very often contain a lot of scholarship. Only, it tends to be in the field of history, for obvious reasons. Or journalism, for contemporary subjects.

You'd think there'd be more hype, for this book being one of the rare breed of medical biographies.
So you don't read any autobiographies unless they are written by professional biographers? That must restrict your reading list a bit.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:52 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.