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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , Mary Trump , presidential candidates , Trump controversies

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Old 14th July 2020, 04:36 PM   #201
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Quote:
Mary Trump has a simple reason for writing this book.
"Donald, following the lead of my grandfather and with the complicity, silence and inaction of his siblings, destroyed my father. I can’t let him destroy my country.”
I like her already, waiting all this time to deliver her revenge. Truly it's the slow knife that penetrates the shield. I care nothing about her objectivity. She can be as subjective as she wants if she does real damage to that vile family.
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Old 14th July 2020, 04:49 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
So you don't read any autobiographies unless they are written by professional biographers? That must restrict your reading list a bit.
LOL. Bit of a non sequitur, don't you think?
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Old 14th July 2020, 04:51 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I like her already, waiting all this time to deliver her revenge. Truly it's the slow knife that penetrates the shield. I care nothing about her objectivity. She can be as subjective as she wants if she does real damage to that vile family.
Yeah, I'm really liking the arrogance she brings. The idea that Donald Trump is going to destroy the country and her book will stop it is impressive.
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Old 14th July 2020, 04:52 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Truly it's the slow knife that penetrates the shield.
The Spice must flow!
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Old 14th July 2020, 04:59 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The Spice must flow!
It's a compelling metaphor, but I feel like if you're waiting until three and a half years into his presidency to make your move, you're probably doing it wrong. This should probably have been one of those "let's destroy this Death Star before it's completed" kind of scenario. Where was she in 2016? The sad truth is that no matter how much psychology Mary Trump's book contains, Hillary Clinton will still never be president.
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Old 14th July 2020, 05:24 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a compelling metaphor, but I feel like if you're waiting until three and a half years into his presidency to make your move, you're probably doing it wrong. This should probably have been one of those "let's destroy this Death Star before it's completed" kind of scenario. Where was she in 2016? The sad truth is that no matter how much psychology Mary Trump's book contains, Hillary Clinton will still never be president.
I think this comment says more about how much time _you_ spend thinking about Clinton than the rest of us, mate.
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Old 14th July 2020, 05:34 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, I'm really liking the arrogance she brings. The idea that Donald Trump is going to destroy the country and her book will stop it is impressive.
It takes lots of cuts (metaphorical) to get rid of Caesar, we need all the Senators to do their part. Besides, if it hurts Trump and the four nits who grew into lice who cares if she's arrogant?
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Old 14th July 2020, 05:37 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a compelling metaphor, but I feel like if you're waiting until three and a half years into his presidency to make your move, you're probably doing it wrong. This should probably have been one of those "let's destroy this Death Star before it's completed" kind of scenario. Where was she in 2016? The sad truth is that no matter how much psychology Mary Trump's book contains, Hillary Clinton will still never be president.
She mentions that early on. She thought he was too stupid to win more or less. It makes more sense to wait until the next election to do the most damage. She should have spoken out earlier but she's not the only one who didn't think 80,000 morons would betray their country and put that thing in the White House.
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Old 14th July 2020, 05:54 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This statement from the book, should tell us all we need to know about Mary Trump's objectivity:

Now, I am NOT saying that she is wrong in her feelings. I think they are well justified from her POV. What I am saying is that those feelings cloud clinical judgement and therefore, you won't find any confirmation of DJT's mental illness in the pages of her book.

Facts are facts, wherever they come from. There are objective criteria for diagnosing mental illness, and if she can make her case by those standards, the fact that she has observed him up close all her life is a plus.

Here's a non-shrink applying his own direct observations:
Quote:
As I once did up close, we can observe every day which psychopathic traits Trump manifests in his behavior. The highly regarded Hare Psychopathy Checklist enumerates 20 of them. By my count Trump clearly demonstrates 16 of the traits and his overall score is far higher than the average prison inmate.
https://gen.medium.com/the-psychopat...f-aa10ab2165d9
https://www.businessinsider.com/hare...iopath-2016-11
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Old 14th July 2020, 06:02 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
She mentions that early on. She thought he was too stupid to win more or less. It makes more sense to wait until the next election to do the most damage. She should have spoken out earlier but she's not the only one who didn't think 80,000 morons would betray their country and put that thing in the White House.
In one excerpt she criticizes the media for never asking Trump's family members -- who included a veteran federal judge and a clinical psychologist -- whether they supported his campaign. Their answers might have been a bright red flag.
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Old 14th July 2020, 11:00 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a compelling metaphor, but I feel like if you're waiting until three and a half years into his presidency to make your move, you're probably doing it wrong. This should probably have been one of those "let's destroy this Death Star before it's completed" kind of scenario. Where was she in 2016? The sad truth is that no matter how much psychology Mary Trump's book contains, Hillary Clinton will still never be president.
No one thought Trump was going to win in 2016...not even Trump. Why on earth should Mary Trump have come forward then? Speaking up after his election but long before the Nov. 2020 election would also have been a waste of time because people have very short memories. MT's book has absolutely nothing to do with Hillary Clinton being/not being president and why you would even suggest it does is more a comment on your thinking than Mary Trump's.
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Old 15th July 2020, 12:19 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I like her already, waiting all this time to deliver her revenge. Truly it's the slow knife that penetrates the shield. I care nothing about her objectivity. She can be as subjective as she wants if she does real damage to that vile family.
Yeah, I like the timing. In 2016 no-one really believed it was possible, I remember thinking that what the hell is wrong with the people for him getting maybe even as much as 45% of the vote... Anway, this is the time for it to do maximum damage. Maybe it won't amount to much in the end but every little helps
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Old 15th July 2020, 06:45 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think this comment says more about how much time _you_ spend thinking about Clinton than the rest of us, mate. : )
Enh. It's kind of a cometary orbit, for me. Spends most of its time out of sight and out of mind, but occasionally swings into view for a moment.

Anyway, Mary is saying that she's here with her book to stop Trump from destroying the country. Leaving aside the fact that nobody who matters to that goal is actually going to read the thing, don't you think the time for her to stop Trump would have been about four years ago?

And don't you think it's weird that you're calling out references to Hillary Clinton, in the context of the 2016 US presidential elections? I'm not saying you have to think about her defeat by Donald Trump *all* the time. But shouldn't it at least cross your mind when it's the actual thing being talked about?
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Old 15th July 2020, 06:50 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And don't you think it's weird that you're calling out references to Hillary Clinton, in the context of the 2016 US presidential elections? I'm not saying you have to think about her defeat by Donald Trump *all* the time. But shouldn't it at least cross your mind when it's the actual thing being talked about?
You're not talking about the 2016 elections. Your "she's still not president" is a jab, not an argument or a cogent comment.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:10 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hillary Clinton will still never be president.
And that sad phrase just sums it up.

Can anyone here explain to me what on earth is with the Bill/Hill obsession?

Not only is Hillary not even a candidate, she clearly stated that she was not remotely interested in being one.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:12 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It takes lots of cuts (metaphorical) to get rid of Caesar, we need all the Senators to do their part. Besides, if it hurts Trump and the four nits who grew into lice who cares if she's arrogant?
Maybe "unearned confidence" or "hubris" is a better term.

Anyway, I'm not following the "Senators" metaphor. Who are they supposed to represent, in the current situation?

And if it doesn't stop Trump from destroying the country, who cares if it hurts him? Millions dead, but at least Trump is a little bit unhappier than he otherwise might have been? That's a weird ethical calculus, even in the context of the weird ethical calculus you're already pushing.

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
She mentions that early on. She thought he was too stupid to win more or less.
So much for her credentials as a psychologist giving her a unique and valuable insight into the man.

Quote:
It makes more sense to wait until the next election to do the most damage. She should have spoken out earlier but she's not the only one who didn't think 80,000 morons would betray their country and put that thing in the White House.
I wonder what you think the Venn diagram looks like, of people whose change of mind will matter in this election, and people who will read this book and have their mind changed prior to this election.

I think it's probably a pretty small overlap. I think the vast majority of people who are going to read this book have already made up their minds who they're going to vote for. And the way electoral demographics work, most of those votes are a given anyway.

And I think most of the swing voters who are going to read this book have also already made up their minds as well. I doubt there are very many voters at all whose lives are so finely balanced on the points of economics, social justice, and public health, that their vote can be tipped by this book. Maybe you *should* care if she's arrogant, if it leads to misplaced confidence. There's a whole pandemic out there, touching the lives of millions of Americans, and you think this book is going to make a difference?

At least Caesar had a countable number of stab wounds, degrees of injury that could be observed and measured. The damage to his life could be calculated from the blows received. You've got this imaginary world where all these little blows are doing all these little hurts to Donald Trump. You tell yourself that even though you can't see them, they must be happening. And maybe you think you have to settle for those imagined cuts. But Mary Trump doesn't think she has to settle for that. Mary Trump has set her sights much higher. Mary Trump is going to save the country.

And she's going to do it with this book.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:25 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Facts are facts, wherever they come from. There are objective criteria for diagnosing mental illness, and if she can make her case by those standards, the fact that she has observed him up close all her life is a plus.

Here's a non-shrink applying his own direct observations:

https://gen.medium.com/the-psychopat...f-aa10ab2165d9
https://www.businessinsider.com/hare...iopath-2016-11
If the author's just going to tell us the same stuff that we laypersons can figure out on our own, what's the relevance of their Ph.D.?
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:32 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're not talking about the 2016 elections. Your "she's still not president" is a jab, not an argument or a cogent comment.
I was literally talking about the 2016 elections. The elections she could have influenced, had she published earlier. The elections Hillary lost. Thus the reference to Hillary losing them. If that reference feels like a jab... Perhaps it's better not to personalize this too much.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:34 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was literally talking about the 2016 elections. The elections she could have influenced, had she published earlier. The elections Hillary lost. Thus the reference to Hillary losing them. If that reference feels like a jab... Perhaps it's better not to personalize this too much.
Oh, please. The discussion has NOTHING to do with whether Hillary will ever be president. Stop it.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:36 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And that sad phrase just sums it up.

Can anyone here explain to me what on earth is with the Bill/Hill obsession?

Not only is Hillary not even a candidate, she clearly stated that she was not remotely interested in being one.
Come on now, be honest. You've never taken a moment to imagine what might have been, if Mary Trump had thought to publish four years earlier? You don't have to be obsessed with Hillary Clinton, to wish that she'd won in 2016, and regret that she didn't.

I would say this book is bound to re-open old wounds, for people who lament the way the 2016 elections turned out. But actually I think those wounds are still fresh for a lot of people.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:38 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No one thought Trump was going to win in 2016...not even Trump. Why on earth should Mary Trump have come forward then? Speaking up after his election but long before the Nov. 2020 election would also have been a waste of time because people have very short memories. MT's book has absolutely nothing to do with Hillary Clinton being/not being president and why you would even suggest it does is more a comment on your thinking than Mary Trump's.
I give, I give! Point taken. She didn't know her book would be sorely needed, back in 2016. And this is now the best moment to publish, if she's going to have any chance of saving the country.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:48 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, please. The discussion has NOTHING to do with whether Hillary will ever be president. Stop it.
I was discussing what would have happened if Mary Trump had thought to publish ahead of the 2016 elections. You may not like it, but the outcome of those elections has quite a lot to do with that discussion. Anyway, it's moot now, since we all agree that she couldn't reasonably have known to publish in time to help get Hillary elected. Feel free to move on from the Clinton question whenever you're ready.

---

Right now, probably the most interesting thing about the book is the verifiable dirt that she's able to dish. New and true information about Donald Trump that she's in a unique position to provide.

The second most interesting thing about the book, for me, is whether it contains any scholarly psychological analysis of Donald Trump's mental state.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:54 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was discussing what would have happened if Mary Trump had thought to publish ahead of the 2016 elections. You may not like it, but the outcome of those elections has quite a lot to do with that discussion.
Whatever you say.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:57 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And that sad phrase just sums it up.

Can anyone here explain to me what on earth is with the Bill/Hill obsession?

Not only is Hillary not even a candidate, she clearly stated that she was not remotely interested in being one.
Buttery males.
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Old 15th July 2020, 09:10 AM   #225
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Unfortunately, this book is not going to be a blockbuster. The information in it just isn't anything we didn't already know. It doesn't look like the SAT thing is going to gain any traction, which it probably shouldn't, being 50 years old and all that. Everything else seems to be "the whole family thinks he's kind of an idiot." And? Tell me something I don't know.

I would like it if someone brought something up that simply couldn't be denied by his defenders, but those defenders are pretty good at denial. I don't see this book being the thing that pulls down the house of cards.
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Old 15th July 2020, 09:44 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Unfortunately, this book is not going to be a blockbuster. The information in it just isn't anything we didn't already know. It doesn't look like the SAT thing is going to gain any traction, which it probably shouldn't, being 50 years old and all that. Everything else seems to be "the whole family thinks he's kind of an idiot." And? Tell me something I don't know.

I would like it if someone brought something up that simply couldn't be denied by his defenders, but those defenders are pretty good at denial. I don't see this book being the thing that pulls down the house of cards.
Think of the house of cards in terms of Craig4's idea of death by a thousand cuts. This book won't be The One Thing That Brings Down President Trump. Just like none of the other things put forward over the past four years are The One Thing.

But if you take all these little things together, you could build quite a tall house of cards from them. And then you could take the cards and fling them at the President, each one making a little cut and drawing a little blood. Throw enough of these cards, and... Well. Robert's your mother's brother, as they say.

---

Didn't Mythbusters do an episode on card-throwing? Maybe they should dust off their machine and take it on tour as the Grant Imahara Memorial Presidential Scaler.
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Old 15th July 2020, 09:50 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Unfortunately, this book is not going to be a blockbuster. The information in it just isn't anything we didn't already know. It doesn't look like the SAT thing is going to gain any traction, which it probably shouldn't, being 50 years old and all that. Everything else seems to be "the whole family thinks he's kind of an idiot." And? Tell me something I don't know.

I would like it if someone brought something up that simply couldn't be denied by his defenders, but those defenders are pretty good at denial. I don't see this book being the thing that pulls down the house of cards.
Too bad it didn't come out sooner, so we could have the movie version by now!
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Old 15th July 2020, 09:54 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Too bad it didn't come out sooner, so we could have the movie version by now!
Maybe in time for SNL this fall.....if there's SNL this fall.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:11 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Unfortunately, this book is not going to be a blockbuster. The information in it just isn't anything we didn't already know. It doesn't look like the SAT thing is going to gain any traction, which it probably shouldn't, being 50 years old and all that. Everything else seems to be "the whole family thinks he's kind of an idiot." And? Tell me something I don't know.

I would like it if someone brought something up that simply couldn't be denied by his defenders, but those defenders are pretty good at denial. I don't see this book being the thing that pulls down the house of cards.
I just finished the book, and I agree with you.

I can't, off the top of my head, recall reading anything shocking or salacious that hadn't already trickled out ahead of publication.

Reading the book will provide much more background on the family as a whole (indeed about the first half of the book does not highlight Donald more than it does any other family member--except for perhaps, Fred Trump). The juicy bits have already been shared. Not to say there is no reason to purchase the book. Even though I learned little new information, I still view buying the book as some tiny thumb in the eye of Donald Trump. Silly, I know.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:31 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
Even though I learned little new information, I still view buying the book as some tiny thumb in the eye of Donald Trump. Silly, I know.
It's not that silly, is it? After all: "It takes lots of cuts (metaphorical) to get rid of Caesar, we need all the Senators to do their part."
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:31 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, please. The discussion has NOTHING to do with whether Hillary will ever be president. Stop it.
Theprestige doth protest too much, methinks. I've never seen someone work so hard to try and discredit a book/author that will allegedly make no difference.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:35 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I give, I give! Point taken. She didn't know her book would be sorely needed, back in 2016. And this is now the best moment to publish, if she's going to have any chance of saving the country.
Your sarcasm does not make your argument any stronger.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:37 AM   #233
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Theprestige doth protest too much, methinks. I've never seen someone work so hard to try and discredit a book/author that will allegedly make no difference.
Don't worry, it's not hard work.

Do you actually have a problem with debating the question of whether the book will make a difference?

Do you think the book will make a difference?
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:41 AM   #234
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Your sarcasm does not make your argument any stronger.
Not sarcasm. I accept your argument. It makes sense to me. I no longer hold the position that she should have published earlier.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:47 AM   #235
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Don't worry, it's not hard work.
That's good to hear because you certainly spend a lot of time doing so.

Quote:
Do you actually have a problem with debating the question of whether the book will make a difference?
Debating in good faith? No. But debating does not include asking the same question over and over after it's already been answered.

Quote:
Do you think the book will make a difference?
Maybe. It may influence a few hundred fence sitters in swing states. As previously said, just one more thing on top of so many others can add up.
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Old 15th July 2020, 11:48 AM   #236
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not sarcasm. I accept your argument. It makes sense to me. I no longer hold the position that she should have published earlier.
It made sense the first time you got that same answer.
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Old 15th July 2020, 12:08 PM   #237
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It made sense the first time you got that same answer.
Both you and Craig4 gave the same answer while I was asleep. From my perspective, both answers came in simultaneously. You find it suspicious that I conceded the point in response to your post instead of Craig's?

The truth is, I read both posts in rapid succession. Craig's post was still percolating when your post reinforced the argument. After giving it a little more thought, I decided the right thing to do was concede the point and let you know. Now I'm beginning to wonder why I bothered.

No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.
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Old 15th July 2020, 12:15 PM   #238
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Will anyone's mind be changed by finding out Mary's book includes scratch-and-sniff stickers of the Trump family?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
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Old 15th July 2020, 12:19 PM   #239
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Maybe. It may influence a few hundred fence sitters in swing states. As previously said, just one more thing on top of so many others can add up.
Resolved: We can probably find a few hundred people who are influenced by anything.

So, okay, I agree with you at least this far: There are probably at least a few hundred people who haven't yet made up their minds about Trump one way or the other, for whom the revelations in this book would make a difference, assuming they read it.*

I'm dubious that there are enough of these people, in swing states, who are going to read the book, and whose votes will actually affect the election, to matter to the election.

---
*Here's a question: How many people do you think there are, who don't care enough about Donald Trump to form an opinion about him three years in, but do care about him enough to bother buying and reading this book? I'm sure there are at least a few. But enough to actually matter to the election?

Put it another way: There's a reliable Democratic voter in a swing state that wasn't motivated to go out and vote in 2016. After three and half years under President Trump, they're still not motivated to go out and vote in 2020. How likely do you think it is that they're motivated to go out and buy Mary Trump's book, read it, and reevaluate their motivation based on what it contains?

Yes, it's one more thing that adds up, but you have to add a lot of hundredths of a percent, to add up to a real electoral advantage.
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Old 15th July 2020, 12:21 PM   #240
theprestige
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Will anyone's mind be changed by finding out Mary's book includes scratch-and-sniff stickers of the Trump family?
It probably wouldn't be the weirdest thing to happen in American politics.
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