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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 20th July 2020, 04:48 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I'm having trouble identifying the weapons these hoons are carrying. Looks like grenade launchers. HK MP5s? Specialized pepper spray squirters? Can anyone spot ARs?

Ugly business.
It's a dog's breakfast of cop riot control weapons. It doesn't help that there's both the feds and Portland Police on the scene with their own set of equipment.

Some of these less-lethal firearms are harder to identify. I've seen pics of the easy to id revolving grenade launchers, but also what looks like single shot grenade launchers. Pepper-ball guns, which are basically paintball guns. Of course, lots of M4 carbines.
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Old 20th July 2020, 04:58 AM   #202
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The US is best at liberty! Look at the rest of the world! People are forced to wear masks and everything!
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Old 20th July 2020, 07:27 AM   #203
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Have people seen the video of the guy in Portland that's been in the news?


Struck with a baton three times while barely flinching, and then pepper sprayed in the face by multiple officers, at which point he casually walked away while flipping them off.
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Old 20th July 2020, 07:28 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I'm having trouble identifying the weapons these hoons are carrying. Looks like grenade launchers. HK MP5s? Specialized pepper spray squirters? Can anyone spot ARs?

Ugly business.
I'm having trouble knowing if I'm watching the trailer for The Purge or a USA news report, never mind identifying weapons.
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Old 20th July 2020, 07:32 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Have people seen the video of the guy in Portland that's been in the news?


Struck with a baton three times while barely flinching, and then pepper sprayed in the face by multiple officers, at which point he casually walked away while flipping them off.
A brave man for sure, but he was pretty badly injured by this attack by cops.

Multiple broken bones, likely needing surgery with screws and plates into his hand.

This twitter account claims to be the man in question and is discussing his injuries.

https://twitter.com/tazerface16
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:02 AM   #206
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:29 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
The video I saw had a woman asking the camo-wearing _______* who they were, and asking them to “use their words” to clarify what the subject was under arrest for. As far as I could see, they remained silent, and I saw no insignias as they threw him into a van and drove off. I would certainly want to know what a friend was under arrest for, and under whose authority.


*I left that blank after struggling to find an appropriate word. Are they law enforcement officers? Soldiers? Federal Agents? Militia? Vigilantes? Death Squads? Sure, that last one is a reach, but I’m sure it was in the beginning in the countries where such actually did come to pass.
Gestapo.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:28 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Compare this to the treatment of the Michigan capitol protesters a couple of months ago, and the message is clear: if you're going to protest, bring lots of guns.
Somehow, I think a bunch of liberals with guns protesting would lead to a very different response.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:35 PM   #209
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At this point, is it still just "Godwin's law" to compare Trump's actions to Hitler?

The invocation of Godwin's law at this point is just a ******** effort to keep people from realizing that the Trump regime is authoritarian and could very well lead to a dictatorship.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:39 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's a dog's breakfast of cop riot control weapons. It doesn't help that there's both the feds and Portland Police on the scene with their own set of equipment.

Some of these less-lethal firearms are harder to identify. I've seen pics of the easy to id revolving grenade launchers, but also what looks like single shot grenade launchers. Pepper-ball guns, which are basically paintball guns. Of course, lots of M4 carbines.
I didn't see any M4s, but I have no TV, and must rely on FaceBlech images.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:41 PM   #211
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Wait, USA is police state?

...always has been.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:45 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Wait, USA is police state?

...always has been.
Yea, but mostly just for minorities.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:51 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
At this point, is it still just "Godwin's law" to compare Trump's actions to Hitler?

The invocation of Godwin's law at this point is just a ******** effort to keep people from realizing that the Trump regime is authoritarian and could very well lead to a dictatorship.
Yanukovitch is a more appropriate comparison right now.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:58 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yea, but mostly just for minorities.
Not anymore.
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Old 20th July 2020, 06:18 PM   #215
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On July 4th, militia protested at Gettysburg in response to a hoax. They had signs, chanted slogans, carried deadly weapons. They did not get a permit, nor were they required to constrain their protest within a "First Amendment Zone".

In response, on July 18 a different group had a protest. They applied for a permit beforehand. No good deed goes unpunished. The second group was required to stay within the boundaries of a small "First Amendment Zone", and they were required to cut the corners off their signs to prevent them from being used as deadly weapons.

I’ve been struggling to process what happened on Saturday at Gettysburg National Military Park as I participated in a demonstration against the armed takeover of the Soldier’s National Cemetery that occurred on Independence Day.

Quote:
Dr. Murray applied for a permit for us to meet. We were given a choice of spots that had been designated as “First Amendment Zones” in the park. We chose the site nearest the Cemetery at General Meade’s headquarters.
We arrived on Saturday afternoon to find a small, penned in area that was our designated spot on the battlefield. On the hottest day of the year, in the midst of the worst pandemic in 100 years, we were given a tiny fenced in area in which to gather. Quite a juxtaposition to the roving bands of armed militia members harassing visitors across the battlefield on July 4.
They complied, but then decided to march up the Soldier's Monument within the cemetery:

Quote:
Following our program, the decision was made to march up the hill to the cemetery behind American flags and regimental colors carried by living historians. We arrived at the cemetery gates to be met by a National Park Service law enforcement officer who barred our entry.
We spoke of marching through the cemetery, with our signs put away, in order to honor the American heroes who were buried in the cemetery. We were allowed to pass. We made our way to the Soldier’s Monument in the Cemetery, where brief remarks were made as well as a reading of Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address.
As Dr. Murray read the address, a NPS law enforcement vehicle approached. An officer emerged and came up to our group. Dr. Murray and this officer talked – the officer condescendingly telling her that we were in violation of our permit and that we needed to leave immediately. We had been declared an unlawful assembly.
Quote:
How different we were treated than the heavily-armed men and women who took over this hallowed ground on our nation’s Independence Day. They were allowed to tote semi-automatic rifles into the cemetery, to wave political banners and flags, and most infuriatingly, to mount the rebel banner on the walls of the cemetery in which the men who died to put down the flag were laid to rest. They were allowed to accost visitors because of their T-shirts and then the visitors were removed for their own safety. They were allowed to confront and corner Gettysburg College professors at different spots on the battlefields.
But we were the ones confronted and forced to leave. The ones who went through bureaucratic hoops to get a permit and the ones who were penned in by tiny fencing in the hot sun. The ones who spoke of the importance of Gettysburg and the richness of its history. The ones who marched under an American flag to honor American soldiers.
Moral of the story: Laws don't apply to right wing gun nuts. Everyone else needs to follow the rules, but they don't. Not under this administration. At best, unarmed leftist protesters get constrained to the narrowest possible definition of the First Amemdment.
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Old 20th July 2020, 06:27 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Moral of the story: Laws don't apply to right wing gun nuts. Everyone else needs to follow the rules, but they don't. Not under this administration. At best, unarmed leftist protesters get constrained to the narrowest possible definition of the First Amemdment.
The moral of the story is "bring a gun, not a permit." Cops respect demands backed by guns. They don't respect peaceful requests. That's just where our country is right now.
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Old 20th July 2020, 06:31 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
At this point, is it still just "Godwin's law" to compare Trump's actions to Hitler?

The invocation of Godwin's law at this point is just a ******** effort to keep people from realizing that the Trump regime is authoritarian and could very well lead to a dictatorship.
With Trump making threats to send more SA goons to other cities, the DA of Philadelphia was quite outspoken in this area:

“My dad volunteered and served in World War II to fight fascism, like most of my uncles, so we would not have an American president brutalizing and kidnapping Americans for exercising their constitutional rights and trying to make America a better place, which is what patriots do,” Krasner said. “Anyone, including federal law enforcement, who unlawfully assaults and kidnaps people will face criminal charges from my office.”

https://www.inquirer.com/news/donald...-20200720.html
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Old 20th July 2020, 06:45 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The moral of the story is "bring a gun, not a permit." Cops respect demands backed by guns. They don't respect peaceful requests. That's just where our country is right now.
Not quite. Cops are authoritarian, so are sympathetic to the far right, guns or not. They are not nearly as fond of the Defund the Police crew, again, guns or not.
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Old 20th July 2020, 07:04 PM   #219
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wrong thread
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Old 20th July 2020, 07:27 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
At this point, is it still just "Godwin's law" to compare Trump's actions to Hitler?

The invocation of Godwin's law at this point is just a ******** effort to keep people from realizing that the Trump regime is authoritarian and could very well lead to a dictatorship.
I generally think people see the problem with Hitler as new powers and laws created after his rise. Trump is using 20 year old laws here.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:23 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I generally think people see the problem with Hitler as new powers and laws created after his rise. Trump is using 20 year old laws here.
Hitler inherited a state which was, effectively, the one crafted by Bismarck on the model of Prussia, which was a nominal monarchy run by a powerful Chancellor, itself the creation of Frederick the Great as state dedicated to war. It was highly centralised with, at best, the semblance of local power. Nothing like States' Rights or powerful city mayors to provide pushback, like in the US.


Hitler was empowered, by the system, to give police powers to the SA and SS (Party organisations) and deploy them where he (and the Party) wished. That's far from the case in the US. I've long said that the US won't go down with a bang or a a whimper but in a welter of litigation, which is looking increasingly prescient.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:53 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
At this point, is it still just "Godwin's law" to compare Trump's actions to Hitler?

The invocation of Godwin's law at this point is just a ******** effort to keep people from realizing that the Trump regime is authoritarian and could very well lead to a dictatorship.
As a reminder, relatively early on in the Trump Presidency, Godwin himself stated that you should call some people Nazis.

For example -

Mike Godwin: Man who devised internet Hitler law says, 'Call these Charlottesville ********* Nazis'

'By all means, compare these ********* to the Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you.'


Going further, Godwin's position is that it's completely fine to thoughtfully compare people to Nazis - the assumption that it's an instant loss to invoke Hitler is something that's not actually part of Godwin's Law.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Wait, USA is police state?

...always has been.
Not really, though there have been increasing similarities for a while - primarily driven by Republicans, though Democrats aren't particularly innocent either.

Edited by Darat:  Rule 10 breach edited out - remember cannot not partially mask a naughty word.
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Old 21st July 2020, 03:51 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Have people seen the video of the guy in Portland that's been in the news?


Struck with a baton three times while barely flinching, and then pepper sprayed in the face by multiple officers, at which point he casually walked away while flipping them off.
I am ashamed that I was once a federal officer. Those officers are traitors to their oaths and their country.
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Old 21st July 2020, 04:20 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post



Moral of the story: Laws don't apply to right wing gun nuts. Everyone else needs to follow the rules, but they don't. Not under this administration. At best, unarmed leftist protesters get constrained to the narrowest possible definition of the First Amemdment.
If you're bringing guns to a protest, the trick is to bring a lot of guns. The point is that you need to have enough guns that the police realize that using force and starting a chaotic scene is very likely to result in their own deaths due to sheer outnumbering and firepower. It never goes well when a handful of lefties show up armed, because police don't have the same patience with armed lefties that they do with right wing militia nuts. Overwhelming force is the only way to ensure police mind their manners, and even then, I doubt they'll show the same deference to armed liberals and lefties that they show to armed right wingers.

To be honest, I think the unarmed approach is working pretty well here. The disparity of violence wielded by these pigs is really injuring the reputation of the police in the eyes of the general public.
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Old 21st July 2020, 05:05 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Wait, USA is police state?

...always has been.
Not really
I can guess color of your skin by that alone.
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Old 21st July 2020, 05:47 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I can guess color of your skin by that alone.

"Now, I don't see color. People tell me I'm white and I believe them because police officers call me 'sir'."
-Stephen Colbert
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Old 21st July 2020, 06:27 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As a reminder, relatively early on in the Trump Presidency, Godwin himself stated that you should call some people Nazis.

For example -

Mike Godwin: Man who devised internet Hitler law says, 'Call these Charlottesville ********* Nazis'

'By all means, compare these ********* to the Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you.'


Going further, Godwin's position is that it's completely fine to thoughtfully compare people to Nazis - the assumption that it's an instant loss to invoke Hitler is something that's not actually part of Godwin's Law.



Not really, though there have been increasing similarities for a while - primarily driven by Republicans, though Democrats aren't particularly innocent either.

Edited by Darat:  Rule 10 breach edited out - remember cannot not partially mask a naughty word.
Unless you have a reason why other right wing authoritarian comparisons are not better, you are not doing it thoughtfully.
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Old 21st July 2020, 06:39 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I can guess color of your skin by that alone.


Yes, because not agreeing that a cheap shot quite fits even now, even if there are increasing similarities, is a great way to determine such. What the US has had simply doesn't fit the description all that well, though we do seem to be getting steadily closer. Bear in mind that oppression doesn't require a police state to either happen or be severe and that much of the oppression in the US has had relatively little to do with the things that make a police state a police state.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:19 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post


Yes, because not agreeing that a cheap shot quite fits even now, even if there are increasing similarities, is a great way to determine such. What the US has had simply doesn't fit the description all that well, though we do seem to be getting steadily closer. Bear in mind that oppression doesn't require a police state to either happen or be severe and that much of the oppression in the US has had relatively little to do with the things that make a police state a police state.
I see you still don't get it, so I will speak to you slowly and loudly.

You do not see USA as already being police state because you have correct skin color, thus not witnessing things that does fit description of what is generally understood by concept of police state.
What you describe as "getting steadily closer" is simply already existing police state being less selective in picking it's victims, like, I dunno, topic of this thread - recent kidnappings in Portland.

Do you now get it?
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:22 AM   #230
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Mayors and DA's from other cities responding to threats by Trump to give them the Portland treatment. Some so much as stating that feds that disappear people from the streets will be charged with crimes.

Originally Posted by Philly DA
Anyone, including federal law enforcement, who unlawfully assaults and kidnaps people will face criminal charges from my office. At trial, they will face a Philadelphia jury. It's the least we can do to honor those who fought fascism, including those who are fighting it even now.
https://www.phillyvoice.com/federal-...d-dhs-fascism/
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:23 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Mayors and DA's from other cities responding to threats by Trump to give them the Portland treatment. Some so much as stating that feds that disappear people from the streets will be charged with crimes.



https://www.phillyvoice.com/federal-...d-dhs-fascism/
Good luck getting the local cops to go along with that.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:25 AM   #232
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Good luck getting the local cops to go along with that.
Indeed. It's hard enough to get the cops to stop collaborating with right wing thugs and street gangs, much less other cops.

A DA could place a charge based on video evidence after the fact though. It would be an uphill slog if the police don't play ball, but the DA's office often has its own investigative staff.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:26 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Mayors and DA's from other cities responding to threats by Trump to give them the Portland treatment. Some so much as stating that feds that disappear people from the streets will be charged with crimes.



https://www.phillyvoice.com/federal-...d-dhs-fascism/
They are going to be real upset when judges start confirming the arrests were lawful.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:27 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They are going to be real upset when judges start confirming the arrests were lawful.
I look forward to seeing more details, should such an arrest occur.

I think a stronger case can be made for the use of force examples. Beating and gassing people for failing to follow dubious orders to disperse could be a more complicated case.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:13 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I see you still don't get it, so I will speak to you slowly and loudly.

You do not see USA as already being police state because you have correct skin color, thus not witnessing things that does fit description of what is generally understood by concept of police state.
What you describe as "getting steadily closer" is simply already existing police state being less selective in picking it's victims, like, I dunno, topic of this thread - recent kidnappings in Portland.

Do you now get it?
I think there are an awful lot of Americans who do not see the bigger picture in their country. Looking from the outside, the sheer number of documented and filmed violent abuses of power by those placed in positions of authority is shocking for a country that prides itself on freedom of speech. The abuses would not be accepted in any other first world democracy. “Might makes right” has been the position of the USA in world affairs for far too long an has been readily accepted by Americans. Now it is being applied within their own country on their own citizens and they are too conditioned to notice it.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:17 AM   #236
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I think the most realistic option is the career assistant US Attorneys in Portland quietly build criminal civil rights cases on the officers involved and indict them in January. It would send a strong message to the CBP workforce. The video of the Navy Veteran from two nights ago makes a pretty compelling case for deprivation of civil rights under the color of authority.
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Old 21st July 2020, 02:46 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I see you still don't get it, so I will speak to you slowly and loudly.

You do not see USA as already being police state because you have correct skin color, thus not witnessing things that does fit description of what is generally understood by concept of police state.
What you describe as "getting steadily closer" is simply already existing police state being less selective in picking it's victims, like, I dunno, topic of this thread - recent kidnappings in Portland.

Do you now get it?
Stupid ad hominem aside...

I'm not even sure if it's a race issue. That's what I'm struggling with understanding with the current demonstrations on police officers' abuse of power. Don't people see it's something that hurts everyone? That it extends from black people being choked to death, to teenagers thrown into boot camps and for-profit prisons for the most minor of offenses, the widespread problem of sexual assault in prisons, people trying to enter the States being detained and/or yelled at for hours and hours because they made some tiny mistake when filling out their forms or whatever, ludicrous sentences for minor crimes, and still I could go on and on.

I get part of this is a cultural thing, around the mentality that you have to be "tough on crime", rather than a mentality around prevention and rehabilitation and actually, you know, understanding why crime happens in the first place, but I just don't get the people dismissing the protests with pretending racism doesn't exist in the police force. It's not even that it's so crystal clear it does, but also that racism is only one of the countless problems with the US police force.

"Police state" is one of those buzzwords it's really hard to nail down the actual definition of, so I won't get into that, but the fact remains the US police force has been in dire need of reform for ages, and that hurts everyone, not just black people and immigrants from the south.
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Old 21st July 2020, 02:52 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I think there are an awful lot of Americans who do not see the bigger picture in their country. Looking from the outside, the sheer number of documented and filmed violent abuses of power by those placed in positions of authority is shocking for a country that prides itself on freedom of speech. The abuses would not be accepted in any other first world democracy. “Might makes right” has been the position of the USA in world affairs for far too long an has been readily accepted by Americans. Now it is being applied within their own country on their own citizens and they are too conditioned to notice it.
I think there's a lot of truth to this. The "it's okay when we do it" mentality seems to permeate US (and to a degree the rest of Western) culture, and is actively promoted by everything from video games to TV series. Jacob Geller, a commentator on YouTube, had an excellent video on how the most recent Call of Duty games promote this way of thinking. It's worth watching.

I also remember a truly excellent moment from the classic Four Lions. A police sniper, tasked with shooting a terrorist in a costume parade based on some vague description, shoots the wrong person. After bickering for a full minute with his partner about what exactly constitues a wookie, bear, or honey monster, he finally retorts with perhaps the best line of the film, for all the satire it manages to convey: "it's got to have been the target, I just shot it!"

Oh, did a cop bust or shoot someone? Did we bomb someone in the Middle East? Well, obviously, we wouldn't have done that if they weren't bad guys. Torture in Guantanamo? Obviously terrorists, and also let's just arbitrarily we no longer consider the specific things they did to the detainees to be torture. So, what's for dinner?
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:00 PM   #239
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Now, the deputy director has admitted to an unlawful arrest

https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewMCr...38001004482561
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:51 PM   #240
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Stephen Colbert says Trump's new campaign slogan is:

Trump 2020:
Get in the Van!
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