|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
24th February 2013, 11:14 PM | #161 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga Part II
|
__________________
‣“Facts are stubborn things.” —John Adams ‣IANAL, but I do have a white wig. |
|
25th February 2013, 05:12 AM | #162 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
25th February 2013, 07:09 AM | #163 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 482
|
|
__________________
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension. -Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory. -There are no bad ideas, just great ideas that go horribly wrong. |
|
25th February 2013, 09:22 AM | #164 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
25th February 2013, 09:33 AM | #165 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,374
|
Denial of the moon landings is right up there with the stupidest of the stupid as far as conspiracy theories.
|
__________________
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison |
|
25th February 2013, 09:34 AM | #166 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Three U.S. Presidents have proposed a return to the Moon since Apollo ended. Out of those, only one received funding but was then later defunded.
Manned space flight is not simply a matter of "technology." And yes, while some technical fields such as computers have advanced by leaps and bounds in the past few decades, others like spacefaring equipment have remained largely unchanged since the 1970s. Aside from a few new companies such as SpaceX, we have needed only incremental improvements. But to conduct a series of manned space missions there needs to be an incentive to spend all that money toward that end. Beating the Soviets was incentive enough during the Cold War, but now space exploration is not a national priority. This is the reality of public science programs. If the public vision changes, so does the funding. |
25th February 2013, 09:38 AM | #167 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,374
|
It's been kind of disappointing for people like me who remember the Apollo program. As a grade-school kid, I was CERTAIN that by my early 50's there would be colonies on the moon and Mars. If somebody would have said then that by 2013 not only would we not have any colonies on the Moon, but that we wouldn't have even gone back once to the moon since 1972, I'd have thought they were crazy.
Things do change indeed. |
__________________
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison |
|
25th February 2013, 10:00 AM | #168 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
The lackluster outlook after Apollo is why von Braun and so many prominent figures left NASA. Von Braun envisioned an ambitious space exploration infrastructure, but without strong political patrons and a public mandate, he saw it tragically eviscerated in Congress. Several historians pointed to Apollo as the "perfect storm" of political will, public interest, and technological capability.
|
25th February 2013, 10:39 AM | #169 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
25th February 2013, 10:40 AM | #170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
|
Ihave begun to think they should just let the private sector rip, albeit with some regulation so it is not a total free for all.
|
25th February 2013, 10:48 AM | #171 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
|
In order for the private sector to do anything in space, there has to be some way of earning enough revenue to turn a profit to offset the enormous costs. I don't really see space tourism getting it done. I know there are a couple of companies that want to do mining on near-earth asteroids, but I'm not sure if that will actually prove profitable.
There are some manufacturing processes that would benefit from micro-gravity and high vacuum, but again, I don't know if these will prove profitable. |
25th February 2013, 12:37 PM | #172 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
|
Double
|
Last edited by indomitablespirit; 25th February 2013 at 12:47 PM. Reason: iranin accidentally written and changed that to "American" |
|
25th February 2013, 12:41 PM | #173 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
|
I'd been pro Apollo regular story Fat Freddy until about a year ago. Then this dude drives down to Denver from Fort Collins to show our little astronomy club his dad's notebooks. The guy from Fort Collins father was an aerospace engineer. The dad had been tasked to determine whether Swigert was a viable political candidate. During Swigert's run for congress this fellow would attend the various political functions , ask Swigert questions and that kind of thing. As it turns out this guy's dad became suspicious of Swigert. the man was an environmental systems expert and apparently when he'd ask Swigert about how warm the spaceship should have been and how much energy it takes to heat a spaceship Swigert did not know jack squat. There's more to it that that, but that was a significant part of it. This guy concluded Swigert was a fraud and recommended to his company not to support the astronaut's run for congress. Swigert of course did win , but never worked really in congress because he got sick. The aerospace engineer investigating all of this never went public, but with his recent death, his son has been showing the notebooks around, fairly selectively, at our astronomy club meeting and that kind of thing. they are obviously authentic and the son is planning to publish this stuff I believe but is looking for guidance. The incriminating claims by Swigert from the interactions this guy had with the deceased astronaut are pretty compelling. At least I think so. Keep your eye out for this sort of thing now FatFreddy. Nationally you don't see or hear much but in the smaller anecdotal cosmos of Denver it's sort of heated up.
There of course is great precedent for American and Western sponsored underground activities(conspiracies) featuring numerous participants that are never exposed or well exposed and simply never acknowledged for what they are; 1) Allende assassination 2) Recent predatory lending 3) The installation of the pro-American Shah 4) The activities of NATOS SECRET ARMIES 1945-1990 and perhaps beyond 5) The Government/AT and T supercomputer eavesdropping on us all in strong violation of the then law 6) Manned Orbiting lab, to function not as advertised 7) Iran Contra And on and on, zillions of them. Apollo will probably wind up being like the AT and T supercomputer thing. At first everyone flips out including politicians and then it is all viewed as semi-necessary and even the president helps to smooth the BS over. |
25th February 2013, 12:49 PM | #174 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
That's the best story you can make up?
Quote:
Quote:
How about producing some of this "environmental systems expertise" you say revealed Swigert to be a fraud? You know, evidence that isn't just a tall tale, but instead can be tested for correctness. |
25th February 2013, 01:03 PM | #175 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
|
|
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
|
25th February 2013, 01:10 PM | #176 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
Oh yeah! I was kid during the 60s and was inspired by the National Geographic magazine images of space flight and the TV coverage. I firmly believed then that we'd were going to Mars by the 1980's and I would have visited there by now......yeah I know I was being unrealistic.
|
25th February 2013, 01:12 PM | #177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
To summarise, anonymous dude from denver drives a considerable distance to visit an insignificant club to show what anonymous dudes dad wrote in notebooks, anonymously. Anonymous dad's job was to ascertain if Swigert was suitable for congressional candidacy (and he obviously concluded 'Yes' since Swigert was elected) and Anonymous Dad was a paid shill, asking predetermined questions at Swigerts public engagements. Anonymous Dad became suspicious when Swigert could not answer technical questions, even though Swigert did not have technical references to hand (few could do so).
This sounds plausible to you? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
25th February 2013, 01:29 PM | #178 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
|
More will be revealed. But I like the environmental arguments the Fort Collins guy trots out. The how can you keep a secret conspiracy angle is one that the in favor of Apollo side uses. I am just pointing out it is nonsensical. Of course western interests screw people in secret on a regular basis. Just ask Allende's wife, or the family's of the children blown up at the Bologna train station.
I really could not care less in my taking a look at Apollo about this sort of thing, if only your side said there never really were conspiracies perpetrated by our secret governmental arms. |
25th February 2013, 01:32 PM | #179 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
|
So, in order to fake the moon landing, they had to build a Saturn V rocket. In order for the hoax not to be obvious, the rocket had to have engines big enough to launch the alledged payload to the moon, and the rocket had to be big enough to hold fuel enough to get to the moon. I suppose if it wasn't actually going to the moon, they didn't nave to put a full load of fuel on it.
The point's been made many times before, but it seems putting together a believable hoax would have been as difficult and expensive, if not more so, than actually going to the moon. So why bother? |
25th February 2013, 01:33 PM | #180 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
|
Wasn't trying to convince you of anything. Was just a communication mostly directed to Fat Freddy letting him know how I bounced to this side and little note to your side reminding you our secret government engages on hidden activities ad lib. Conspiracies are common place and the secrets are very well kept.
|
25th February 2013, 01:41 PM | #181 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
|
So, several years after the mission, Swigert couldn't remember some technical details that he probably didn't need to know during the mission, therefore the whole Appollo program was fake?
Okay. ETA: And the government (or parts of it) have done some evil things in the past, so we should believe every conspiracy theory put forward, no matter how stupid it is? |
25th February 2013, 01:42 PM | #182 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
|
25th February 2013, 01:42 PM | #183 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
|
|
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
|
25th February 2013, 01:51 PM | #184 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
|
25th February 2013, 01:52 PM | #185 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
|
|
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
|
25th February 2013, 01:56 PM | #186 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
|
Not to mention that in order to simulate the effect of dust moving in a vacuum, they'd have to build a giant sound stage that could be evacuated to virtually zero atmospheric pressure. Then, to simulate the effect of 1/6 gravity, they'd have to be able to drop the whole sound stage from from a considerable height for minutes at a time.
|
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
|
25th February 2013, 02:30 PM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
No, not in the sense that you laid out a cogent argument arriving at the stated belief. More like you simply assumed it was a fact Apollo was faked and are just speculating about the aftermath. That's like me saying, "When your boss finds out you're a drunkard, he'll probably fire you." Complex-question arguments are arguments nonetheless. Give us a reason to believe your anecdote.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
25th February 2013, 02:39 PM | #188 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Why not now?
Quote:
"I have a friend who's an expert on space technology and he says Apollo was faked." How many times have we heard this same handwaving indirection? Bring him here and let him debate. Why should we debate you? You don't know anything about it.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
25th February 2013, 02:44 PM | #189 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,830
|
OK, so, let's have the name of the guy with the notebooks, the name of the astronomy club and the date of the meeting. Then we should really check that you were there, seeing as this must have happened over 30 years ago.
Without any of this information, your story is going to smell really bad. Of stale feet. |
__________________
Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
|
25th February 2013, 02:59 PM | #190 |
I AM the Red Worm!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,452
|
This 'new' guy reminds me of the funniest moon landing was faked reason I've ever heard:
My mom and a co-worker were talking about something when the subject of the moon landing came up. Guy: "You know they faked the moon landings, right?" Mom: "What makes you think that?" Guy: "Those rockets were way to small to carry enough coal to get to the moon and back!" Mom: "" |
__________________
I'll be the best Congressman money can buy! As usual, he doesn't understand the relevant sciences, can't Google for the right thing, and appears to rely on the notion that a word salad liberally sprinkled with Google Croutons will make his argument seem coherent. -JayUtah |
|
25th February 2013, 03:09 PM | #191 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
|
The actual argument is quite technical. One I certainly could not produce here. Here's a nice little exercise. Ask yourself why Armstrong and Aldrin were so cold the night they were supposed to be parked on the moon and why the Apollo 15 astronauts were burning up. Then ask yourself and go and find what the temperature was said to be in the two LMs on those 2 occasions.
One of the most compelling points in favor of a hoax is that such an effort need be made on the for Apollo side. Why does Phil Plait go on the air and utterly embarrass himself debating a comedian? Per the poster above, why did they add an entire section to the 1994 Moon Shot publication in 2011 to cover the attack by the advocates of hoax? Why do defenders of Apollo spend so much time and energy on this ? If it's fake, why waste your time? There is no danger from us. The thing is a big joke. Very big joke. And quite sad I might add. Think of Armstrong's ultimate legacy, nothing less than abominably pathetic. |
Last edited by indomitablespirit; 25th February 2013 at 03:11 PM. Reason: words truncated so i fixed them |
|
25th February 2013, 03:14 PM | #192 |
Muse
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 700
|
|
25th February 2013, 03:23 PM | #193 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
I'm an engineer. I work in aerospace. Try me.
Quote:
Begin irrelevant handwaving in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Try again, that argument doesn't wash.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
25th February 2013, 04:02 PM | #194 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Debunking Linkbarf
Posts: 761
|
Pathetic point. Were no refutation provided of the constant idiotic claims, the claimants would cheer in "victory" like Gollam holding his ring aloft!
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
The less they know the more they blow. |
|
25th February 2013, 04:17 PM | #195 |
Dental Floss Tycoon
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
|
There are a lot of engineers here, so please, produce your argument.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone. |
|
25th February 2013, 04:17 PM | #196 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Also an engineer here. Bring it on.
Thermodynamics. Also do you have a citation? No? Nonsense. Citation? Well because if nobody steps up to the plate then crackpots rule the world. It is not fake, so not a waste of time. There is if you think about it. It is only one step away from creationism in schools, since who would object to it? As usual, you don't understand it therefore it must be fake. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
25th February 2013, 04:26 PM | #197 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
25th February 2013, 04:28 PM | #198 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
25th February 2013, 04:32 PM | #199 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
|
Be sure when you tell us all why you also tell us the temperature inside the LM on both occasions. That of course is the part that makes the why of it all so very interesting, and revealing when it comes to proving how downright not real never happened in a million years this all is. So please go ahead, tell us all why and how hot it was in there on the moon, both times, Apollo 11 and Apollo 15.
|
25th February 2013, 04:34 PM | #200 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16
|
Don't bluff me. What kind of fool do you take me for? Why don't you tell us all how hot or cold it was inside the LM on the occasion of the Apollo 11 stay on the moon and likewise please tell us the temperature inside the LM during the Apollo 15 stay.
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|