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2nd June 2022, 12:28 PM | #921 |
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What turns out to be the case is that the great majority of Holocaust Deniers are anti-Semitic idiots even without the the anti-Israeli stuff.
Of course some of them do in fact deny that anti-Semitism has anything to do with Holocaust Denial, which is a simple lie. Among themselves and when they are with the "like-minded" they let their hair down so to speak and the crap pours out of their mouths. Further even with the denial of anti-Semitic motivation , again and again, we see the hatred and vitriol pour out sooner or later. Just look at the past Holocaust Denial threads on this forum for massive examples of hatred and bile. Thus we hear about the all powerful "Jew", who for purposes of conquest and filthy lucre has concocted the "lie" of the Holocaust. We hear about "their" control of media, academia etc., that enables this all powerful cabal to foist on the world the "lie" of the Holocaust. Hoilocaust Deniers all too frequently see themselves has brave fighters against an all powerful, even Satanic, foe and many do not even try to hide their adoration etc., of National Socialism and Hitler. Holocaust Denial emerged shortly after World War II from the pens and mouths of Anti-Semites who were desiring to restore respectability to their paranoid fantasies and hate. Needless to say this didn't look very good so later Deniers have been trying in a half assed manner to hide their, the great majority of the time, real motivations. Thus Holocaust Deniers, explicitly and implicity accept the paranoid, hateful nonsense in the the infamous forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, that view Jews has a sinster, evil group out by subversion and treachery to try to conquer the world and rule it through their alleged control of media, finance etc. Thus Denier's almost always view themselves has the Sons of Light fighting the Sons of Darkness and the "Jew" is the evil "other". They view, most of the time, Holocaust Denial has part of the fight against the evil "other" that is the "Jew". |
3rd June 2022, 12:03 PM | #922 |
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And of course The Denirers use the old 'I am not Anti Semitic, just Anti Zionist" excuse.
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4th June 2022, 05:52 AM | #923 |
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4th June 2022, 06:58 AM | #924 |
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The only time I hear this is when anti-semites are defending their anti-semitism.
I have not yet seen an examples of legitimate criticism of Israel being labelled as anti-semitism. In fact, the definition of anti-semitism specifically excludes such criticism. Do you have any examples? |
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4th June 2022, 07:45 AM | #925 |
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4th June 2022, 08:05 AM | #926 |
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Holocaust denial is in itself anti-Semitic, as it appeals to the tropes of manipulative, all powerful Jews, who will act together, especially when there is an opportunity to make money.
The sheer size of the hoax they allege, is something deniers ignore. If c2.5 million people were not gassed, then they saw what did happen inside the AR camps, Chelmno and A-B Kremas and yet not one single witness has ever come forward to tell the truth. That would need an incredible amount of cooperation, which appeals to the all Jews act together trope. When asked about the Nazis, deneirs suggest they were all coerced into admitting to something they did not do, which appeals to the all powerful trope. Then there is the issue of compensation. Ask a denier to evidence people claiming compensation for the property that had stolen at the AR camps, Chelmno and A-B. If they had not been gassed, why are there not hundreds of thousands of claims for that, since they allege it is all about money, so appealing to that trope. |
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4th June 2022, 10:07 AM | #927 |
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Although I ardently disagree with David Irving on many issues, especially just about everything involving Israel, I think the movie Denial is very misleading and biased. As chance would have it, I recently wrote a review of the movie, after taking almost a year to read the Irving-Lipstadt libel trial transcript and six of Irving's books. Here's my review:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tbh...0aLrFsCIy/view |
4th June 2022, 02:44 PM | #928 |
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4th June 2022, 03:35 PM | #929 |
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I have no respect for Irving. Who is quite clearly a racist.
In a previous posting I posted this:
Quote:
Even before David Irving got involved with Denial bull he was not a good historian. And bluntly David Irving has had and still has a very bad case of shock the middle classes. |
5th June 2022, 10:03 PM | #930 |
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5th June 2022, 10:17 PM | #931 |
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That one's behind a paywall, but there's more detail here.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...anti-semitism/ Now, Netanyahu was a nightmare, and a major obstacle to any kind of resolution in the Middle East, but his full remarks are worth reading:
Quote:
Palestinian Arab allegations of Israeli war crimes are sometimes justified, but they also engage in a great deal of grandstanding, and I think this appeal to the ICC could be considered to be part of that. So, not, I don't think that's a clear example at all, even one coming from a scumbag like Netanyahu. |
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6th June 2022, 02:15 PM | #932 |
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I'm guessing you didn't read my review of Denial.
You should read the Irving-Lipstadt libel trial transcript. Irving's scholarship held up extremely well under the most withering, exhaustive scrutiny that money could buy. Out of the 20-some alleged instances of distortion/error that Lipstadt's experts claimed to have found in Irving's writings, Judge Gray rejected over half of them as invalid, i.e., he concluded they were not errant or misleading. As for your comments about Irving's public statements at events/conferences, at several such events he has challenged extreme revisionists over their Holocaust denialism and has confronted them with documentary evidence that up to 4 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Irving's critics have done some very dishonest editing of some of Irving's public appearances, so we need to be careful about relying on clips of those appearances and make sure they haven't been deceptively edited, as I discuss in my review. I agree with you about Irving's comments regarding Holocaust survivors, and I criticize him for this in my review. The problem is that some Holocaust survivors have clearly fabricated their stories, and even some Israeli scholars have acknowledged this. But on some occasions Irving has gone too far by condemning all Holocaust survivors as liars. As my review makes clear, I cut him no slack on this issue. That being said, Irving's views on survivors have softened over the years as he has become aware of information that confirms many of their accounts. As for his being a racist, this is murky, complex territory. There are racists and there are racists. Winston Churchill was patently, ardently racist, and had no qualms about ordering or approving violence against minorities in some cases. By today's standards, Abraham Lincoln was a racist, even in his later years, but he was not nearly as strident or virulent as Churchill was about it. We now know that JFK, RFK, and LBJ held views about blacks, and made private statements about them, that would definitely qualify as racist today. I would call Irving a mild racist. I don't think he would ever condone violence against minorities, much less order it. Also, Irving hired several people of color to work for him for many years, which is not something a staunch, hateful racist will usually do. |
7th June 2022, 11:23 AM | #933 |
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Depends on definitions. I think calling or the "destruction of the Zionist Entity "
is sort of defacto Anti Semitism; since that would involve such massive killing of Jews as to be sort of indistinguishable. I have yet to see anybody advocating the end of Israel give a good solid explanation of what would happen to the Five Million Jews living in Israel, except for ritualistic chanting of the magic words "Secular Palestnian State" which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell. And, yes, Virginia, I think a lot of Israeli policies toward the occurpied territories are incredibly dumb and stupid. |
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7th June 2022, 11:27 AM | #934 |
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Your attempt at a "reasonable defense" of Irving as a historian is a huge fail.
The man is an antisemite and a Hitler Hugger, period. I don't see why you attempt this, except I you seem to think that because he is on the political right, Irving can't be as bad as the ":Progressives" say. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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7th June 2022, 04:25 PM | #935 |
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I had to be sure of my understanding of the term so I looked and found two dictionaries and Wiki defined it as predjudice or bigotry against Jews/Judaism and no mention of the state of Israel. So while I don't accept your broader definition, I very much agree with your take on Netanyahu. Cheers |
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8th June 2022, 02:01 AM | #936 |
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There are better definitions than those in the dictionary.
One of the internationally accepted definitions was drafted by the IHRA. It contains the following:
Quote:
Quote:
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26th June 2022, 04:40 AM | #937 |
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David Cole of Taki's Magazine seems to think around 3 million died (give or take half a million). He adds around 1.5 million Aktion Reinhard deaths, relying on the Korherr report for numbers and Himmler's Posen and Sondhoven speeches, to the deaths in camps and some shootings, but "denies" Auschwitz and Maijdanek. He claims a few others of the old IHR agree with him.
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Kommt der Krieg ins Land, Gibt Lügen wie Sand. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg cross examined in 1985 by Canadian attorney Doug Christie (after briefing by revisionist Robert Faurisson). Click here. Video on the Aktion Reinhard camps. Click here. Extermination Camps of Aktion Reinhardt (2013), click here. |
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26th June 2022, 01:13 PM | #938 |
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Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. A Critique of the Falsehoods of Mattogno, Graf and Kues. (biggest ever skeptical debunking of conspiracy theorists; PDF available) Everytime one asks you holocaust deniers for positive evidence you just put your finger in the ears, dance around and sing lalala - Kevin Silbstedt |
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26th June 2022, 06:34 PM | #939 |
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27th June 2022, 06:07 AM | #940 |
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27th June 2022, 02:49 PM | #941 |
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I am not surprised that one of our resident Trump suppoters is also a David Irving fanboy.
And that Lipstadt has not been shy about showing her huge loathing for Trump is a factor with this guy as well. |
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30th June 2022, 04:51 AM | #942 |
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I have long maintained that Holocaust denial is a product of its proponents' disappointment that it didn't happen as advertised. They aren't outraged at a hoax, they are furious because they think it didn't happen and they have been denied the piles of dead bodies they are desperate to see.
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3rd July 2022, 02:37 PM | #943 |
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Holocaust deniers are mad that there were survivors.
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7th July 2022, 05:23 PM | #944 |
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In the late 50s and into the early 60s Willem Sassen, a Neo-Nazi living in Argentina, who knew Adolf Eichmann recorded many hours of interviews with him and eventually transcribed hundreds of pages of the interviews.
Eichmann denied that the transcripts were accurate renditions of what he said. And since the Prosecution was unable to get the recordings the Judges ignored the transcripts. Recently,after a truly absurd series of events we finally get to hear them in any detail. In a new documentary. We hear with Eichmann's own voice say crap like:
Quote:
These recording validate the accuracy of the transcripts. Further this confirms that Eichmann was indeed a fanatical Anti-Semite and that he is a poor example of "The Banality of Evil". See: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...5195ef03ddfaf9 Lets see Holocaust Deniers deal with this stuff right from the horses mouth so to speak. |
7th July 2022, 05:27 PM | #945 |
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7th July 2022, 05:45 PM | #946 |
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Eichmann was interviewed by a fellow SS Officer, long before he was captured by the Israelis.
He admitted to the gas chambers, the shooting pits, the "liquidation camps", Hitler's order to annihilate the Jewish people, the abandonment of the Madagascar Plan, the murder of at least 5 million Jews, the cremations, etc etc. He acknowledges all of it, but claims he was only involved in the deportations. He regrets nothing, says he was proud to do it. interview starts on page 24 and continues on page 101. http://books.google.com/books?id=0U0...page&q&f=false here is the 2nd part of the interview, and begins on page 146 http://books.google.com/books?id=90....page&q&f=false |
8th July 2022, 11:29 AM | #947 |
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11th July 2022, 08:47 AM | #948 |
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11th July 2022, 09:55 AM | #949 |
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11th July 2022, 10:58 AM | #950 |
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11th July 2022, 11:19 AM | #951 |
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11th July 2022, 11:50 AM | #952 |
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It's a reference to the conversion of Saul to Saint Paul. Saul was persecuting the early Christians until he was converted by God, repented and became an evangelist. Eichmann is saying he could have said he repented of persecuting the Jews, but in fact he stands by his actions.
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11th July 2022, 03:20 PM | #953 |
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13th July 2022, 03:56 PM | #954 |
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Someone once described Holocaust Denial of having two points
A.It Never Happened B.And They Had It Coming To Them Anyway. |
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15th July 2022, 11:11 AM | #955 |
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19th September 2022, 02:48 PM | #956 |
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I have been re-reading Jeffrey Herf's The Jewish Enemy, Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, London, England, 2006 and in it is a plenitude of quotes from the German, Nazi, Press including the directives to the German press given by the Reich Press Chief Otto Dietrich.
A few quotes of the Press directives from a few pages of the above book.
Quote:
and
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Also Goebbel's says in his diary:
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On january 30, 1944 Hitler in a an address to the nation said that a Soviet victory would result in:
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In another directive of the Reich Press Office it refers to Jewish media power as that which:
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And later we learn that a supposed Western response to a Soviet annoncement:
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and again
Quote:
This only from a few pages of a book about Nazi propaganda which illustrates the paranoid, conspiracy, virulent and hateful thinking of so many of the Nazis. They quite literaly seems to have had Jews on the brain has a satanic, demonic force and not human beings in the slightest. I find it interesting that so many Holocaust deniers don't talk too much about this, unless they are talking to the like minded who will "understand". Of course a great many Holocaust deniers do in fact see the world in the same paranoid, idiot fashion. Also the element of projection is blackly amusing i.e., the atribution of the desire for World Domination and Extermination to the Jews. When both of those aims were very much part of the Nazis ethos. Bluntly the Nazis seems to have been hysterics frightened by a mythical enemy. The Nazis were quite honest about their delusional view of how the world operates. And the two posters below are also illustrations of a totally bogus view of how the world works. |
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