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22nd September 2020, 02:43 PM | #1 | ||
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JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII
Speaking of Oliver Stone, he appears to have gotten a second wind in regards to the JFK Case. In the past 10 months, he has given several interviews where he regurgitates the same debunked nonsense he put forth in both his 1991 film and his subsequent speaking tour. Stone also remains hypersensitive to any critiques of his flawed research and/or conclusions. |
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22nd September 2020, 08:11 PM | #2 |
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24th September 2020, 10:47 AM | #3 |
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24th September 2020, 11:04 AM | #4 |
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It's not about ignoring opposing viewpoints, it's about separating the facts from speculation and lies. The problem with the world of JFK-CTs is that they've become dogmatic fantasies that serve as a foundation for a world view that believes there is a conspiracy behind everything.
In this fantasy world the facts are irrelevant due to the thesis that says, "If the government lied about X,Y.& Z then it must also have lied about A,B, & C". This thinking handicaps the believers in CT from the beginning sending them down multiple rabbit holes at once searching for a more acceptable version of the truth that is in alignment with their own. |
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24th September 2020, 11:04 AM | #5 |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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24th September 2020, 11:47 AM | #6 |
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I'd love if you could debate without ignoring opposing viewpoints.
When do you intend to start? Here's just five examples over a period of a few days when you were a more active poster here of you raising an issue just to drop it after the actual facts of the case were posted (I could cite several dozen more) : http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=733 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=734 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=741 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=742 And of course, there's this memorable one where you tried to lecture me on the different between a magazine housing and a trigger guard, not understanding what Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano even looked like, apparently: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=747 Do you think we forgot about your prior arguments that you never supported with evidence and went nowhere? And ignored the opposing viewpoints? I summarized where we ended up here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=768
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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1st October 2020, 10:46 AM | #7 |
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1st October 2020, 12:57 PM | #8 |
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2nd October 2020, 08:46 AM | #9 |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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2nd October 2020, 10:15 AM | #10 |
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2nd October 2020, 11:17 AM | #11 |
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Music is what feelings sound like "Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus |
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2nd October 2020, 03:58 PM | #12 |
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Let me ask a question then as nothing is happening.
Besides the possibility of the Cuban inspiration that we beat to death are there any other details or points that remains obscure but might have influenced or 'directed' Oswald in his course of action? What was the best theory on who the umbrella man was? |
2nd October 2020, 04:13 PM | #13 |
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Louis Witt. He was found by the HSCA investigation in 1978 and testified before Congress.
His testimony is here: https://www.history-matters.com/arch...Vol4_0217a.htm He was needling the President about his father's policies toward Hitler when Joseph Kennedy was Ambassador to England. The whole Neville Chamberlain / umbrella association. John McAdams has an article here with some details about Witt: https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ3.htm And some more here: https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm And here's a conspiracy theorist actually being reasonable about the Umbrella Man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoZWb9gqv0 Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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2nd October 2020, 07:08 PM | #14 |
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God!! Do conspiracy nut jobs have no originality!? In the past year I have read in conspiracy books and on line all sorts of crap about "Umbrella Man" which I could not take seriously in the slightest. And here I find out this was dealt with more than 40 years ago!!!!
Talk about pressing the reset button!!!!! |
2nd October 2020, 07:59 PM | #15 |
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For an alternative theory, watch Netflix' "The Umbrella Academy". Not a bad show. (For those not familiar, it is pure fiction of a science fiction/superhero genre, but I thought it was cute that they managed to incorporate one very famous umbrella into their show.)
Sorry. I haven't popped into a Kenneday assassination thread in ages. Glad to see nothing has changed. |
2nd October 2020, 09:20 PM | #16 |
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2nd October 2020, 09:22 PM | #17 |
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3rd October 2020, 08:17 AM | #18 |
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Pretty much none. They constantly deal with statements taken out of context or misunderstandings of the evidence (deliberate or otherwise) from many of the original authors back in the mid-1960s. If you watched the last video in my prior email, you'll note that the umbrella man issue was first raised in 1967 in Josiah Thompson's book SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS. It was resolved in 1978 by the HSCA. That's pretty much standard fare, as most all of the conspiracy claims raised by the original generation of critics have been exposed as erroneous.
But if they didn't recycle these claims, they wouldn't have much to discuss. There is an occasional outlier theory advanced, like Robert Morningstar's Tippit's autopsy photos were substituted for JFKs, or Bob Harris' theory that there was a shot at Zapruder frame 285, but even both of those theories are at least 20 years old now. Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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3rd October 2020, 11:06 AM | #19 |
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3rd October 2020, 12:03 PM | #20 |
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Bob shows up here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...279669&page=42 IIRC, he claims 4 shots from 2 shooters or two shooters fired simultaneously to make it appear as one hit, or something like that. Here Bob talks about 285: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1723 Jay explains Bob: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post10781713 |
4th October 2020, 06:07 AM | #21 |
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4th October 2020, 09:35 PM | #22 |
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Okay let me fan the flames a bit. What was the most seriously stupid and irrational CT that was ever presented, and worse yet, believed by far too many people?
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4th October 2020, 09:44 PM | #23 |
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5th October 2020, 03:13 AM | #24 |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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5th October 2020, 08:34 AM | #25 |
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5th October 2020, 08:41 AM | #26 |
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I wonder if I misinterpreted the question. Did you mean the specific sub-theory within the sphere of Kennedy assassination CT's?
It's so hard to judge because it's so hard to see how many people actually believe any particular conspiracy theory. A typical CT believer seems to throw out every variation all at once, despite the numerous contradictions inherent in them. As for the people who push those theories, it's so hard to say whether they even really believe it themselves. Some of them are just clearly trying to cash in on a sucker's market. That being said, I think the body alteration one is hard to top. It appears that some people sincerely believe it, possibly including Lifton himself. The Clay Shaw one is also pretty nutty, and that one got all the way to a jury. not to mention being the centerpiece of a zillion dollar movie with a big name movie star. There's just no evidence of any connection whatsoever to the assassination. |
5th October 2020, 12:04 PM | #27 |
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My vote was the "Fake Oswald Body Double":
Quote:
They actually dug to poor guy up to confirm that it was Lee Oswald. Spoiler Alert: It Was. |
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5th October 2020, 02:36 PM | #28 |
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Back a few months ago when you guys forced me to get back into this,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13104190 my brother* made a startling admission. He had once had dinner with some JFK conspiracy guy. Quickly I rattled off some names. "No, no, those don't sound right" he replied furrowing his brow. "It was ... David something." "David Lifton!" I yelled! "Dude you hit the big time. Why didn't you tell me this before! Just think of all the street cred that I would get on the JFK Conspiracies Theories Forum! I could have been a contender!" *autographs available upon request. That's my brother's autograph not Lifton's. |
8th October 2020, 09:01 AM | #29 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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8th October 2020, 09:02 AM | #30 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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8th October 2020, 09:22 AM | #31 |
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But it got so many five star reviews on Amazon, so it must be true!
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Evidence...&sortBy=recent Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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8th October 2020, 10:36 AM | #32 |
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Lifton talks about analyzing the grainy Zapruder film photos published in LIFE magazine to determine if there was evidence of a second shooter that could be gleaned from the reactions of the victims. He thought he saw something in the way Governor Connally's shoulder was driven down during the shooting, and of course, he thought the President's backward head snap was evidence of a shot from the right front. He didn't seem troubled by the fact that the President and Governor weren't thrown in any direction by the other bullet that struck both men.
But it occurs to me you may be talking about references to Ray Marcus, an early critic of the Warren Commission whom Lifton was acquainted with and whom Lifton mentions several times in his BEST EVIDENCE book. Marcus would try to analyze photo reproductions if that was all he could get his hands on, rather than stick with first generation photographs as source material. Marcus admitted he had no expertise in photoanalysis or any of the subjects he opined on in his testimony to the New Orleans Grand Jury[1], but he blew-up and analyzed grainy newsprint photos regardless. This led to some rather comic incidents, not covered in Lifton's book, but noted here in an article on John McAdams website: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/toobig.htm
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_______________________ 1 https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/g...pdf/Marcus.pdf "We are talking about photographic evidence and I am not a photographer. And I am talking about ballistics ... and I am not a ballistician." |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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8th October 2020, 11:47 AM | #33 |
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Yeah, that's a good one too.
It got its start because like in any well publicized incident, people convince themselves they saw that guy somewhere, and come forward and report it. So we have a whole slew of Elvis sightings, for example, after the death of Elvis. And so it was for Oswald. After he was arrested for shooting JFK, his image was on TV and in newspapers worldwide. And well-meaning people came forward to claim, "Yeah, I saw Oswald". But in most cases, it couldn't have been Oswald because he was known to be elsewhere. Like he was reported to be buying trucks in the US when he was actually in Russia at the time. Or taking a test drive when he supposedly didn't drive. Those reports were dutifully recorded by the FBI and many of them were published in the Warren Commission volumes. And that was pretty much the end of it, but some of the earliest critics (like Harold Weisberg) devoted a bit of space to these "mysterious" sightings. Then one critic decided there was a book in those mistaken identity reports and that became: The Second Oswald by Richard Popkin: https://www.amazon.com/SECOND-Startl.../dp/B000J0VUL4 And that led to the book you reference (and the actual digging up of Oswald's body to confirm it was him): The Oswald File by Michael Eddowes: https://www.amazon.com/Oswald-File-M.../dp/0517530554 And this book which utilized almost every document referencing Oswald to argue for two Oswalds from an early age (and two different women as Oswald's mother, as well!): Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong https://www.amazon.com/Harvey-Lee-Jo.../dp/0974509701 And then this Johnny-come-lately: Doppleganger by George Schwimmer https://www.amazon.com/DOPPELGANGER-.../dp/1530364981 This is apparently a little cottage industry within the JFK assassination conspiracy genre. There may be more Oswald sightings to mine, so look for more books on this subject at a book John McAdams website gives some more information on this here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/2oswalds.htm Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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9th October 2020, 12:51 AM | #34 |
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9th October 2020, 06:45 AM | #35 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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9th October 2020, 03:33 PM | #36 |
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Ray Marcus was fixated on the head snap and the grassy knoll as the source of the shot that drove JFK backwards from very early on. He was responsible for blowing up photos of the fence line from copies of the Moorman photo and claiming a shooter was visible in those photos. It may be that you're recalling. However, there's no reference to Badgeman in Lifton's name index or subject index.
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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10th October 2020, 07:43 AM | #37 |
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13th October 2020, 08:48 AM | #38 |
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The New York Football Giants have launched a "Giant Hero" program.
https://view.email.nygfootball.net/?...c848c624f4b78e Should I nominate Lee Harvey Oswald? Some people think he brought a "Giant Hero" three foot long sandwich to the Depository in that paper sack, instead of his rifle. Hank |
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner. Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so. - Manifesto |
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13th October 2020, 11:50 AM | #39 |
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A sandwich that he spent the entire morning eating, and it made him sick so he left work early because nobody wants to use the work men's room when you have diarrhea. This forced him to take the taxi after the bus was caught in traffic. The toilet at the rooming house must have been clogged thus explaining why he left the house to go downtown to search for a restroom. Obviously he couldn't hold it and snuck into the movie theater to use the men's room. He stayed because he knew he'd have to use it again soon.
I hereby copyright "The Sandwich Theory" and my e-book will be available soon on Amazon. |
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1st November 2020, 12:40 PM | #40 |
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Today is the anniversary of the coup and assassination of Diem in Vietnam. It's important because it drove the US involvement deeper into Vietnam's civil war, and it is relevant to the JFK assassination CT's because they are ALL founded upon the myth that JFK hated the CIA, and wanted to smash it into little pieces.
The truth is that JFK expanded the CIA's reach beyond its charter. The National Security Archives just released a report along with the original, newly declassified documents from the JFK NSC which show that JFK was directly involved in the decision to launch and back a coup than previously stated. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...8-6e40ae0d7697
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The other reason I'm posting this is that THIS WHAT A REAL ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY LOOKS LIKE. The Diem assassination has been fully and accurately revealed since the late 1960s in the press with witnesses and agents speaking on the record about what happened long before the first documents were declassified. Unlike the JFK assassination CTs, the story never changed, the facts never changed, and with each new declassified document the story only became more solid. |
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