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21st February 2022, 03:56 PM | #201 |
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14th August 2022, 10:27 AM | #202 |
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ABC News: FBI report claims the gun could not have been fired without pulling the trigger.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/gun-rust-s...ry?id=88311336 |
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14th August 2022, 10:34 AM | #203 |
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Actually it shows that if Baldwin didn't pull the hammer back beyond half Cock, the gun could have misfired from dropping the Hammer. There was no Hammer block safety.
The Question was 8s the safety catch still functioning or broken? Added sorry I didn't see the part about quarter Cock, the gun could still fire it wasn't pulled back into quarter cock fully. |
14th August 2022, 12:44 PM | #204 |
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FBI says it needed a trigger pull. Do you not trust the FBI? Do you think the FBI lacks the necessary understanding of firearms, to correctly determine when a trigger pull is or is not required?
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14th August 2022, 12:48 PM | #205 |
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15th August 2022, 12:50 AM | #206 |
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There is no way in the world that the hammer in the firearm used would have had enough energy to strike the primer hard enough to detonate the cartridge from the "less than quarter cock" position.
None. Zero. Nada. Edited to add: You can't play the "what if" game indefinitely - especially in light of the FBI report. You might as well be claiming that the moons of Saturn got in his eyes or something just as ridiculous. |
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15th August 2022, 02:56 AM | #207 |
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15th August 2022, 09:34 AM | #208 |
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15th August 2022, 10:07 AM | #209 |
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15th August 2022, 11:01 AM | #210 |
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Do people actually think that it really matters in terms of his culpability if he was applying pressure to the trigger or not when it went off? I mean to be certain that it didn't bounce over a sear seems like a pretty high bar, likewise to be sure that the trigger was free to move and not constrained by a finger or glove.
It is easy to find lots of negligent discharges on drawing a pistol especially trying to draw it quickly, it is something that happens. |
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15th August 2022, 11:22 AM | #211 |
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15th August 2022, 11:22 AM | #212 |
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Also every claim of "Okay but if this was this specific type of gun in this specific type of circumstance and X, Y, and Z all happened it could have..." requires us to then ask the question of why that kind of setup was being used for a quick pick up shot on a low budget Netflix movie filming?
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15th August 2022, 12:16 PM | #213 |
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15th August 2022, 12:26 PM | #214 |
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Again we can go back decades and count... what 3 incidents of this?
I count 8 people killed by helicopters during filming of movies or TV shows just in the period of 1980-1985 and we still use helicopters for filming and while I'm sure changes to helicopter related safety occurred, especially after the infamous and terrible Twilight Zone: the Movie incident, it wasn't a watershed moment that sparked a debate about the base concept of using helicopters in films. |
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16th August 2022, 12:24 AM | #215 |
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Which commercially manufactured "Large Pistol" primer would ignite with such a light contact? Be specific.
(Please note that I have reloaded for over 50 years and shot competitively for 18 years and have reloaded tens of thousands of pistol and rifle rounds so I have a great deal of knowledge about the subject). Again...I ask you to stop using completely unfounded "what ifs?" It is tedious and vexing - to say the least. |
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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16th August 2022, 12:29 AM | #216 |
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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16th August 2022, 07:46 AM | #217 |
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Shotgun Primers are often used in 45 long Colt Reloads, some of those can go off easily.
http://youtu.be/6Kx2L_5w4NU |
16th August 2022, 08:37 AM | #218 |
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16th August 2022, 08:42 AM | #219 |
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16th August 2022, 10:29 AM | #220 |
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Seems to me the issue is Baldwin not following basic gun-safety, failing to inspect the weapon when it was handed to him to ensure that it was either not loaded, or loaded with dud-rounds instead of live ammunition.
Guns are straight-forward, especially revolvers. The FBI is overkill in this case. If the gun is in your hand it is your responsibility. Period. |
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16th August 2022, 11:26 AM | #221 |
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Got it movies shouldn't bother with armorers.
Shifting the responsibility for maintaining tools and conditions of safety is something that is frequently outsourced from people with highly specialized skill sets. Be they surgeons who expect things to be sterilized properly and so forth to just about any other thing. What is it about guns that precludes this methodology of safety? It seems like people take rule that works for most situations and apply it to all situations You should go on and complain about C&Arsenal when they hand guns back and forth with out checking that it isn't loaded each time. They clearly fail to follow basic gun safety and so why would anyone trust them for their history? |
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16th August 2022, 06:27 PM | #222 |
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Conspriacy crap is no better coming from the left then the right.
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16th August 2022, 11:34 PM | #223 |
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That video has nothing to do with your silly claim of easy shotgun primer ignition!
It was an absolute waste of time!!! Having shot and reloaded for fast draw - I am well aware that shotgun primers are used to propel the wax projectile. That is a very well known fact in pistol shooting and training. Your outrageous claim that "some shotgun primers can go off quite easily" is absolute nonsense. Such a dangerous product would not be allowed in factories or sold to consumers due to the inherent safety concerns. As a matter of fact - pistol primers have thinner and somewhat softer primer cups than their rifle or shotgun counterparts due to the relatively weaker striking force of many pistols. Since you have wasted over 6 minutes of my time watching a completely useless video - as well as my time in reading and responding to your incredibly outrageous versions of "What if?" - I've decided I'm no longer going to waste any more of my time responding to your posts. |
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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16th August 2022, 11:55 PM | #224 |
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The surgeon and whoever else that is actually using the scalpel or end product in your analogy is obviously doing it according to "best practice" and not using it in a dangerous and recognized unsafe manner. Therefore they cannot be held culpable for something that is totally beyond their control. Baldwin did not check or use the firearm according to universally accepted standards of "best practice" and safe use. That is why he should be held accountable for his negligent actions. BTW - just because some people are idiots and don't do things right does not make it a good idea or something to be used as an example of proper safe use. I was taught by my parents at a very young age that just because others are doing idiotic things that it didn't mean that I should too. |
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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17th August 2022, 12:40 AM | #225 |
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They are not universally accepted standards because they do not apply on film sets. I know this, because I work on film sets and I've been handed weapons I'd never normally get to handle, and I've read the gun safety risk assessments.
Film sets are not shooting ranges, they are industrial workplaces with all manner of things/behaviours which would not be allowed in regular life, for example unsafe vehicles, explosives, high ledges with handrails which are designed to break when leant against. An actor is required to do as directed, which often means trusting the assigned safety expert over his or her own instincts. Requiring an actor to always check a weapon handed to them is unworkable, because, for example, the weapon may be handed to them in the middle of a scene by another actor. An actor may be required to load a gun using ammo given by another actor from their pocket or bag. That actor may be required to point that gun at another actor and pull the trigger. That actor may be too young to be trusted with a gun, or otherwise unqualified. This is why gun range 'best practices' don't work on a film set. What would be considered unsafe unhandling on a gun range, is virtually required behaviour on a film set. That is why gun safety is handed very differently by ensuring the weapons are safe before they go onto the set so there are no limits placed on what the actor can or can't do with that weapon. |
17th August 2022, 04:53 AM | #226 |
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17th August 2022, 05:09 AM | #227 |
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And that is a large part of the problem that led to this shooting. If you are going to handle a lethal weapon learn how to do it properly properly. Take personal responsibility for the lethal weapon in your hand. There should be no exceptions. Especially not for actors, who by no means have a reputation as the brightest bulbs. The armorer on site should have the responsibility of showing everyone on site the proper procedure for handling weapons - "If I hand you a weapon the safety procedure you must immediately follow is...."
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17th August 2022, 05:10 AM | #228 |
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17th August 2022, 05:12 AM | #229 |
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17th August 2022, 05:13 AM | #230 |
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17th August 2022, 05:18 AM | #231 |
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17th August 2022, 05:43 AM | #232 |
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17th August 2022, 06:52 AM | #233 |
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The post you are replying to explained why that is looking at the problem from the wrong direction. The set safety procedures are intended to prevent any actor handling a lethal weapon in the first place, whether it's a light sabre, a hand grenade, stick of dynamite or whatever. The fact that in this case the prop was supposed to look like a loaded gun without really being one, and that on a gun range there are procedures to safely accept real guns seems to be a red herring.
What if the prop had been a stick of dynamite with a lit fuse? Or a car, which might potentially have faulty brakes or innumerable other unsafe parts? Do you think there should be mandatory cuts for safety checks every time one movie character picks up a gun or hands a gun to another character? |
17th August 2022, 07:13 AM | #234 |
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17th August 2022, 07:23 AM | #235 |
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This just sounds like movies should not use realistic looking props when you apply it strictly enough. If they had shot it with just finger guns no one would be hurt either.
The thing is we can point to exactly where the process broke and it should have been caught if they had been following procedure, and this would never have happened if they had followed that. Why the fetish for turning any gun shaped object into a live gun on a firing range. Remember pretty much exactly the same procedure would be used if the prop was a functioning firearm or a rubber replica. |
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17th August 2022, 07:39 AM | #236 |
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17th August 2022, 07:44 AM | #237 |
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17th August 2022, 08:43 AM | #238 |
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I'd expect them to make sure the ignition was empty and the engine off, before they floored it. And I'd certainly expect them to look out the windshield and make sure the DP wasn't standing right in front of the car.
And honestly I'd expect them to be in a prop car, simulating driving against a green screen or on a towed trailer, with no functioning controls and perhaps not even a complete automobile. And I'd expect the close-up shots of them putting it in gear and flooring the accelerator to be done by someone else, with the lead themselves perhaps not even on set that day, or even done by the second unit. And I'd expect any practical shots of a car actually being driven unsafely to be done not by the actor, but by a stunt driver on a closed course with strict safety protocols like not having the DP standing right in front of the car. Or anywhere on the course. |
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17th August 2022, 08:52 AM | #239 |
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Fine. But maybe the analogy is overstretched. My point is that the safety rules on movie sets don't appear to rely on each actor having expertise with whatever prop they're pretending to use. It's someone else's job to ensure they don't, for example, get handed a real hand grenade.
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17th August 2022, 08:58 AM | #240 |
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Cars still make a perfect analogy here. Car stunt deaths are monumentally more common than gun prop deaths and while, I hope, every time a car stunt death happens it causes the industry to refine their safety procedures/protocols to be better, it doesn't cause some watershed moment that causes us to rethink the idea of the use of cars in movie production.
Again more people got decapitated by helicopter rotors while filming movie scenes in a 18 month period in the early 80s than have been killed by prop guns... pretty much ever on a timeline worth discussing. |
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