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17th August 2022, 09:47 AM | #241 |
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I think that when a movie character picks up a gun that character should, in character and as part of the movie, follow the safe procedure and provide a check of the gun before doing anything else with it. Likewise a character who receives a gun from another character. Then a whole lot more gun nuts who love violent movies would be exposed to procedures that they are likely not aware of. A small number might even learn something from it.
The "set safety procedures" are proven to be inadequate. Additional procedures are required. |
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17th August 2022, 09:56 AM | #242 |
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17th August 2022, 09:58 AM | #243 |
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I can't sustain my belief in the right to bear arms, except on the principle that everyone is and should be responsible for their own basic gun safety. Even an actor on set should be responsible enough to not point guns at people. Even if he has complete faith in the armorer to be competent in their specialty.
So I'm not saying it was on Baldwin to expertly examine the gun, correctly identify the details of the trigger mechanism, and properly ensure it was not loaded with live ammo. I am saying it was on Baldwin to treat every gun that ends up in his hand as potentially loaded, and not put his finger on the trigger while there's people downrange. I am also saying that it was on Baldwin to use his star power to refuse to rehearse while there were people downrange, just in case. And I am also saying that as a producer of the film, it was on Baldwin as "management" to do due diligence in hiring a competent armorer, and due diligence in hiring senior production staff who were oversee the armorer's proper discharge of her responsibilities. I don't expect Baldwin to know all the details of how to make a working firearm safe for a film set. I just expect him to practice basic gun safety at all times. |
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17th August 2022, 10:01 AM | #244 |
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Personally I think all the accidents from people concealed carrying prove that there are not sufficient restrictions to promote proper safety of that. More constant paperwork is clearly the answer.
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17th August 2022, 10:05 AM | #245 |
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All good points.
I happened to catch Django Unchained on the TV the other day. Lots of scenes of actors handing weapons to each other, lots of scenes of guns being fired directly at the camera. None of those things could be done on a gun range but were essential parts of the story-telling of the movie. Movie sets are not gun ranges and asking numerous actors, both big and small names, to be expert in firearm handling is unreasonable. |
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17th August 2022, 10:07 AM | #246 |
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17th August 2022, 10:47 AM | #247 |
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How many of those scenes of "guns being fired directly at the camera" involved working guns? How many of the scenes involved working guns, with competent armorers on set doing their jobs?
I don't think it's too much to ask, even of an actor, that they insist on only handling firearms under the direct supervision of the production armorer. |
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17th August 2022, 10:50 AM | #248 |
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I get that we all want to save Baldwin's reputation, and throw the armorer under the bus. I just can't figure out why we all want this.
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17th August 2022, 10:51 AM | #249 |
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It's 2022. If a low budget horror movie can deep fake 60 lines of dialogue to remove the "F" word to get a PG-13 rating, any movie can just give actors static prop guns and CGI in the muzzle flash later.
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17th August 2022, 10:55 AM | #250 |
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17th August 2022, 10:56 AM | #251 |
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17th August 2022, 10:58 AM | #252 |
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17th August 2022, 11:06 AM | #253 |
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I mentioned this in the other thread, the original about this incident.
If the "real feel of recoil" is THAT important you can make something akin to The Mill Blackbird. The Mill Blackbird is a device to simulate cars in car commercials. Funny fact in the last 10 years or so you've probably rarely seen an actual real car driving in a car commercial. Ironically you sometimes have to start shooting a car commercial before the car is production ready so all you have is a static model and production specs. So you get the Mill Blackbird. It's basically just a stripped chassis that adjust its length and width to the dimensions of most any road car and it has a 360 camera and bunch of reference points for CGI on it. You film the Mill Blackbird driving along your mountain roads and your wet highways at night and all that, you just CGI the car over when the design is finalized. The car you see people sitting in and putting the children in are almost always static mockups. So just do that but for guns. Have a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, etc mockup that you adjust the size of to fit any gun (advantage you could make fake or sci fi guns a lot easier this way). It can simulate recoil, you could put a light to simulate muzzle flash to make the CGI guys work easier since they would have a lighting reference. You could then motion track a photorealistic gun model over it later. It just couldn't shoot anything ever. Again, to keep all my cards face up and on the table, I'm still sorta on team "3 deaths, really 2 of this type, in 70+ years is actually a pretty good safety record given how much gunplay is in modern fiction" but the solution isn't that hard either. |
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17th August 2022, 11:35 AM | #254 |
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17th August 2022, 11:46 AM | #255 |
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17th August 2022, 11:47 AM | #256 |
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My view is that basic gun safety is everyone's job, including screen actors.
And hiring competent armorers, and competent senior production staff to oversee them, is specifically a producer's job. And insisting on the presence and due diligence of the armorer on set, is the job of everyone else on the set, cast and crew alike. |
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17th August 2022, 12:25 PM | #257 |
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I see Baldwin as jointly culpable based on his producer and marquee star status. He was in a position of power to make the set safe and he failed to do so. Even if another actor had been holding the gun I think Baldwin would share responsibility. Along with the armorer.
My hesitation with making an actor liable for production failings is that an actor could be a toddler like the one I saw in a gun safety billboard pointing a revolver like a play toy. Or a nine year old. Or an adult who knows less about guns than the nine year old. Or a teen who thinks he knows everything about guns. Hell, I can’t even figure out which of those examples is most dangerous. I don’t need actors to know anything about guns if the production is run properly. Just like I don’t need Matt Damon to know algebra to film Good Will Hunting. I just need him to act. |
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17th August 2022, 12:36 PM | #258 |
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I don't think it's unreasonable to expect even actors to abide by the basic gun safety principle of not pointing guns at people.
And I don't think it's unreasonable to expect actors specifically to insist on only handling guns under the supervision of the production armorer. |
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17th August 2022, 01:05 PM | #259 |
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Or maybe the procedures were simply not followed.
What additinal procedures do you recommend? ANd yes, I fear that some :Progressives won't be satified until every single action an indvidual can do is reglated by the government. BTW your total contempt for anybody who owns a gun is noted. |
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17th August 2022, 01:12 PM | #260 |
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From John Wick V: Shooting the Fourth Wall
JOHN WICK and MOOK simultaneously pick up pistols from among the weapons scattered on the floor during the previous action scene. JOHN WICK "Hey, is that gun safe?" MOOK Checks gun. JOHN WICK Shoots MOOK in the face. "Mine isn't!" |
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17th August 2022, 01:21 PM | #261 |
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Robert Rodriguez was filming "Once Upon a Time Mexico" and there was customs hangup of some kind with the functional prop guns, the ones that could fire blanks, and all they had was static prop guns, essentially solid lumps of rubber with no moving parts at all, so he just decided to shot most (maybe all, I'll have to go back and listen to the Director's Commentary again) of the movie with no "movie guns" to speak off and the film has some of the best gunplay ever put to film and the only production problem was Antonio Banderas kept making gun noises with his mouth while filming.
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17th August 2022, 01:25 PM | #262 |
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Anyway, it looks like no opinions have changed since the last time we all went round on this, so I'll bow out here.
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17th August 2022, 01:27 PM | #263 |
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Well because it's a weird situation. How do you parse an easy solution to a problem that statistically never happens.
Don't get me wrong it's a tragic incident, it should be investigated, but it seems like everyone wants to turn into the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire for film production but this kind of thing just doesn't happen that often. |
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17th August 2022, 02:20 PM | #264 |
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Then how do they act like bad guys? Or, good guys who are pointing guns at bad guys?
Not use guns? I’m good with that, actually. But if you are going for visual authenticity that may be difficult. But maybe that’s the direction we need to head. Is that what you’re proposing for scenes where actors appear to be pointing weapons at the camera or at other actors? I completely agree that no gun should be handed to an actor without the armorer on set. Even if assistants are handing out guns because you have so many, no armorer, no guns. |
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17th August 2022, 03:11 PM | #265 |
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No set of rules or procedures is any better the people in charge of enforcing or supervising them.
I think some people here are looking for a set of rules about guns that will work regardless of who is in charge of enforcing them. That is simply delusional. |
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17th August 2022, 04:08 PM | #266 |
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Yup.
The issue here isn't gun control, or the 2nd Amendment. The issue is an accidental shooting on a movie set which ended with one dead, and one wounded. The protocols for the use of "hot weapons" [real guns, loaded with blanks, or with dummy rounds] has been repeatedly laid out. The Armorer is responsible for the guns, their safe keeping, cleaning, function, and loading of rounds. The actors and extras are responsible for the safe handling of the weapons at all times, while in their possession. The evidence is clear. There was an unprofessional attitude towards gun safety on the set of that movie by the production staff , and this attitude permeated all levels of the set to include the armorer, and Baldwin. The list of those at fault in the death of Halyna Hutchins is disgustingly long. The criminality is up for debate in a court of law. |
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17th August 2022, 06:28 PM | #267 |
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There was NO direction from anyone indicating that Baldwin should draw his fully functional firearm and point it at Souza and Hutchins and pull the trigger. Baldwin took the firearm out of the holster after being handed it by the AD1 - not the armorer - and began "rehearsing" what he thought he would do. That is not protocol in any way, shape, or form. Here's what happened: While the trio behind the monitor were repositioning the camera to remove a shadow, Baldwin began explaining to the crew how he planned to draw the firearm. He said, "So, I guess I'm gonna take this out, pull it, and go, 'Bang!'" When he removed it from the holster, the gun was fired a single time. I've also been on the set of movies/TV shows. When the firearm is handed to the actor on set - the actor and anyone else who may come in contact with that firearm in that scene - is shown by the armorer that the firearm is safe and that the bullets are dummies/blanks. The 1AD was not the armorer on set. Baldwin knew this so he knew that proper protocol was not being followed. That was willful negligence on his part to ignore that serious safety breach. That - along with the "rehearsing" that I pointed out above - shows two acts on his part that are not proper protocol. BTW - What to heck was the 1AD doing pretending he was the armorer? Nobody in my universe hands a working firearm to an actor on set but the armorer - or in the case of a very large production and armed cast - the armorer's assistant. Again - why would Baldwin accept the word of a 1AD when he knows the proper protocol was to have the firearm proofed and cleared by the armorer? BTW - I have seen many actors check firearms every time they are handed one. There were numerous actors who were on the Rust set that stated that they checked their firearms every time they were handed one. I cited that in the other thread. Furthermore - George Clooney stated this when asked about the shooting in question: Every single time I’m handed a gun on the set — every time — they hand me a gun, I look at it, I open it, I show it to the person I’m pointing it too, I show it to the crew,” Clooney said. “Every single take.” Then, “You hand it back to the armor when you’re done.” He said. Part of it is because of what happened to Brandon. Everyone does it. Everyone knows” that is the protocol to follow. “Maybe Alec did that — hopefully he did do that. But the problem is dummies are tricky because they look like real [rounds]. They got a little tiny hole in the back [from which] somebody’s [removed] the gunpowder. https://deadline.com/2021/11/george-...ty-1234874907/ |
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17th August 2022, 06:52 PM | #268 |
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This.
And , I submit, given how shocking this was, the current rules and prodecures for firearm safety on movie sets seem to work pretty well. Sadly, you had a bunch of idiots in charge here. ANd nor set of rules will work when that happens. Nohting made by humans will work 100% of the time. I love the poster who suggested that the people who watch these kind of movies are really the ones to blame. |
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22nd August 2022, 06:16 AM | #269 |
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Why is it so hard for people to just blame Baldwin? In the end, the gun was in his hand and he pulled the trigger. If this were any other circumstance other than a movie set, it'd be pretty cut and dried.
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22nd August 2022, 06:23 AM | #270 |
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Simply because it actually did happen on a movie set. Other people have defined duties that make them responsible too.
I forget the other names but the evidence I'm familiar with points to four people: Baldwin, person that handed him the weapon and misled him, armorer, and ammo supplier. |
22nd August 2022, 06:23 AM | #271 |
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22nd August 2022, 06:25 AM | #272 |
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22nd August 2022, 09:01 AM | #273 |
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22nd August 2022, 09:13 AM | #274 |
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Clooney's probably been on more sets with more gun props of all kinds, than you or I could shake a stick at. There's more than one way to make a dummy bullet. Nowadays, you can even print one and paint it to look real on screen. Just because Clooney says "dummy" in reference to a prop bullet made by some other method, that doesn't mean he's wrong. I'd take his word over yours, about what goes on on a safe movie set.
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22nd August 2022, 09:18 AM | #275 |
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The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" is a restriction we place on the government, to not infringe on someone's rights without clearing a very high bar of proof. We are not bound by the same restriction in the court of public opinion. We know enough about this case to reasonably conclude that Baldwin bears a significant moral responsibility for this death. Even if the state never does make a convincing case for legal responsibility.
Quote:
If he'd stopped to ask questions like, "where's the armorer?" and "can someone show me that this gun has been properly safed?", Hutchins would still be alive, and his pet project would still be on track. |
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22nd August 2022, 10:39 AM | #276 |
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22nd August 2022, 10:42 AM | #277 |
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22nd August 2022, 05:50 PM | #278 |
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I’m thinking that at least four or five people are absolutely responsible, one of them being Baldwin.
I think civil penalties should be handed out to many, with Baldwin on the hook for a bunch of money to the victims’ families. I think the armorer is criminally negligent. I’m flexible on this, though. Baldwin being found criminally negligent would sit okay with me. |
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23rd August 2022, 02:19 AM | #279 |
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23rd August 2022, 05:22 AM | #280 |
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