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Old 19th May 2022, 08:39 AM   #361
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Sorry JoeMorgue, but nobody is buying that story.



Maybe I didn't understand what he meant, but I think I'm buying that story.
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:41 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post



Maybe I didn't understand what he meant, but I think I'm buying that story.

While it may be true in an absolute sense, in the practical demonstration of what we accept and often embrace in society, it is not.
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:43 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
While it may be true in an absolute sense, in the practical demonstration of what we accept and often embrace in society, it is not.
Well I don't think Joe was talking about what we often embrace in society. I think he was answering a question.
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:44 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well I don't think Joe was talking about what we often embrace in society. I think he was answering a question.

We also disagree on that.
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:48 AM   #365
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To be fair, I do think there's a difference between people talking about "preserving the white race" and "preserving the Maori race".

I think in one case "preserving the race", is really about preserving a culture. There is no "white culture".

There is, I would argue, a "western culture" or a "European culture", and I think it is worthy of defense, and I even think it's under attack. You can count me in if you want to preserve a reverence for the legacy of ancient Greece, or the plays of Shakespeare, or the philosophical foundation that led to both the scientific revolution and to democracy. I'm all in.

Unless you start calling it "white", because that has nothing to do with it.
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:52 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, I do think there's a difference between people talking about "preserving the white race" and "preserving the Maori race".

I think in one case "preserving the race", is really about preserving a culture. There is no "white culture".

There is, I would argue, a "western culture" or a "European culture", and I think it is worthy of defense, and I even think it's under attack. You can count me in if you want to preserve a reverence for the legacy of ancient Greece, or the plays of Shakespeare, or the philosophical foundation that led to both the scientific revolution and to democracy. I'm all in.

Unless you start calling it "white", because that has nothing to do with it.
Isn't there a European culture? I've got to admit, "white culture", "whiteness" ect, are jarring terms. I impulsive assume folks that use them, are racist. But if you substituted European, it would be, less triggering.

Certainly, Americans using terms like white culture and whiteness are almost certainly just thinly veiled racists.
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Old 19th May 2022, 08:53 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just a small correction - you mean Louis Theroux and The Most Hated Family in America.
Always confuse them, I recently heard one interview the other, even they admit they're basically the same.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:00 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Certainly, Americans using terms like white culture and whiteness are almost certainly just thinly veiled racists.

Best-selling, and widely-loved racists like author/speaker Robin DiAngelo.

She tells people what it means to be "less white", and they applaud her. I think I have even seen her "work" celebrated on this site.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:02 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Isn't there a European culture? I've got to admit, "white culture", "whiteness" ect, are jarring terms. I impulsive assume folks that use them, are racist. But if you substituted European, it would be, less triggering.

Certainly, Americans using terms like white culture and whiteness are almost certainly just thinly veiled racists.
Agreed.

And I think I said that there is, indeed, a "European Culture". The only thing confusing about the term is that I think we, in America, are part of it. I think "western culture" is a slightly better descriptor.

There is some difference between "old world culture" and "new world culture", but they are branches of the same tree, in my opinion.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:08 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I didn't say it was uniquely Western. I said that it was not universal, and that the enlightenment notions of "all men are created equal" came out of a Christian tradition. This is like reading a fact check where they widen what was claimed in order to debunk it.
And I didn't accuse you of saying it was uniquely Western (or Christian). This is like talking to someone who doesn't know how to read for comprehension.

Your whole position is an incoherent mess. You argue against moral universalism (without understanding what it is), strongly implying support for some flavor of moral relativism. You then point to racist countries as grounds for accepting racism in your own culture, without even the dimmest sense that this kind of sauce-for-the-goose argument is a universalist position. You identify anti-racism as a western value, state that you have a preference for your own culture, and fail to realize that this would imply that you, too, should reject precisely the kind of racist/"culturist" ideas that you hold, because that's what your own culture has done.

Just be a ****** old racist, if that's what you want to do. It would be preferable to this kind of abuse of history, logic, and morality.

Last edited by mumblethrax; 19th May 2022 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:15 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
But you are someone who makes racist arguments and denies being racist

"Preserving your own race" is indeed a racist idea.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Only when it is white people promoting it, obviously.
Warp, the problem is you haven't said did-dilly about the lives and rights of non-whites?

Your single focus on white victimhood suggests a certain bias.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 329 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:22 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Then can you explain the fact that former presidents Gerald Ford and George H.W. Bush both supported statehood for P.R., as well as the likes of Mitt Romney, Rick Scott, Marco Rubio, and Jeb Bush, all Republicans in good standing? And if it would be such a slam dunk for the Democrats, why hasn't it already happened, since it plays so well into their "agenda" and would pay off instantly (as opposed to waiting years while immigrants gain citizenship and start voting)?

As for the U.S.V.I., I was unaware that there was anything resembling a serious active initiative to grant them statehood, at least not within the past 30 years or so. Who, exactly, is pushing that idea these days?

(Kind of surprised you didn't mention D.C., although perhaps that would be harder to disguise as an "immigration" issue as opposed to plain ol' racism.)
Statehood for PR and USVI would require 60 votes. The current makeup of the Democrat Senator majority does NOT support killing the filibuster for purely ideological bills.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:23 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Agreed.

And I think I said that there is, indeed, a "European Culture". The only thing confusing about the term is that I think we, in America, are part of it. I think "western culture" is a slightly better descriptor.

There is some difference between "old world culture" and "new world culture", but they are branches of the same tree, in my opinion.
Overlapping Venn diagrams there for sure. I'd argue and I think with evidence that the major differences between US Culture and European Culture is the influence of African Culture and to a lesser degree Asian and Native American Cultures.

Also Latin American culture but they are also mixtures of the previously mentioned cultures.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:29 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Then can you explain the fact that former presidents Gerald Ford and George H.W. Bush both supported statehood for P.R., as well as the likes of Mitt Romney, Rick Scott, Marco Rubio, and Jeb Bush, all Republicans in good standing? And if it would be such a slam dunk for the Democrats, why hasn't it already happened, since it plays so well into their "agenda" and would pay off instantly (as opposed to waiting years while immigrants gain citizenship and start voting)?

As for the U.S.V.I., I was unaware that there was anything resembling a serious active initiative to grant them statehood, at least not within the past 30 years or so. Who, exactly, is pushing that idea these days?

(Kind of surprised you didn't mention D.C., although perhaps that would be harder to disguise as an "immigration" issue as opposed to plain ol' racism.)
When the GOP still had a platform the Official position of both parties was that PR should decide there own fate be it Statehood, independence, or continueing as his, IIRC, both parties favored statehood over the alternatives though.

Personally, I favor reducing the size of the D.C. of Washington DC to the minimum required by the constitution and wrapping the rest of it back into which ever state makes the most sense. A city sized state seems a bit odd, that an issues with most of the other US territories becoming states, the are tiny for the most part.

When 90% of a group votes one way, its difficult to parse racism from partisan politics. Republicans didn't become the party of racism until long after the Black Americans starting voting Dem reliably.
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Old 19th May 2022, 09:56 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Agreed.

And I think I said that there is, indeed, a "European Culture". The only thing confusing about the term is that I think we, in America, are part of it. I think "western culture" is a slightly better descriptor.

There is some difference between "old world culture" and "new world culture", but they are branches of the same tree, in my opinion.
Are you aware how large and diverse Europe is? There are over 40 countries for a start, do you really think there is a shared culture that covers all those countries? And if so what is it?
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:05 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Warp, the problem is you haven't said did-dilly about the lives and rights of non-whites?

Your single focus on white victimhood suggests a certain bias.

Is this the thread to discuss the plight and concerns of non-whites? I am trying to present a viewpoint, and some arguments, as to why such ideas as Replacement Theory might have merit, to some. I mean, that is the question posed in the thread title, right?

Last edited by Warp12; 19th May 2022 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:08 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes.

Oh I'm sorry was that supposed to be a "gotcha?"
Gotcha.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:16 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, I do think there's a difference between people talking about "preserving the white race" and "preserving the Maori race".

I think in one case "preserving the race", is really about preserving a culture. There is no "white culture".

There is, I would argue, a "western culture" or a "European culture", and I think it is worthy of defense, and I even think it's under attack. You can count me in if you want to preserve a reverence for the legacy of ancient Greece, or the plays of Shakespeare, or the philosophical foundation that led to both the scientific revolution and to democracy. I'm all in.

Unless you start calling it "white", because that has nothing to do with it.
Certainly the colour of the European skin is not the reason the "Western" or "European" culture arose. (I would even advance a tentative suggestion that the geographic, geological, and climatic conditions pertaining in europe are at least partly responsible for both the culture and the lack of melatonin)
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:18 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Isn't there a European culture? I've got to admit, "white culture", "whiteness" ect, are jarring terms. I impulsive assume folks that use them, are racist. But if you substituted European, it would be, less triggering.

Certainly, Americans using terms like white culture and whiteness are almost certainly just thinly veiled racists.
No.

If there is an European 'culture' it's about attacking our neighbors for doing things differently.
Now that we can't do that with actual weapons anymore it's down to words and football matches, but even within countries there is no real single culture.
Try to cheer for the English rugby team in Glasgow, talk in dutch in the south of Belgium (or vise versa) etc etc.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:19 AM   #380
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If you know anything about Evolution, you should know that "preserving your race" is not only harmful to said race, but also impossible.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:20 AM   #381
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At this point "culture" is rapidly become a meaningless concept. The world's too connected.

And in the minority in across a lot of the political spectrum that I think this is a good thing IN GENERAL.

A LOT of my mentality here (making allowances for one topic being far, far, far, far, far less odious) is very similar to liberal whining about "cultural appropriation."

Cultures are just collections of ideas and ideas are not sacred. They are only worth what...well they are worth.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 19th May 2022 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:22 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, I do think there's a difference between people talking about "preserving the white race" and "preserving the Maori race".

I think in one case "preserving the race", is really about preserving a culture. There is no "white culture".

There is, I would argue, a "western culture" or a "European culture", and I think it is worthy of defense, and I even think it's under attack. You can count me in if you want to preserve a reverence for the legacy of ancient Greece, or the plays of Shakespeare, or the philosophical foundation that led to both the scientific revolution and to democracy. I'm all in.

Unless you start calling it "white", because that has nothing to do with it.
That's the key difference I think. The various Native American tribes are trying to preserve their cultures. Remember, they were driven off of their own lands by foreign invaders, concentrated into small "reservations," and then marginalized. And in preserving their culture, they aren't demanding that the "White culture" goes away and assimilates into their culture. They just want recognition. So I don't think there is anything racist about that.

As you point out, there really isn't even one monolithic White culture. I would expand that though, to what you are calling Western or European culture. There is no such thing. It's not even true about Hispanic or Black Culture.

Maybe, there is a "Western Value System," that we all have in common.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:23 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Certainly the colour of the European skin is not the reason the "Western" or "European" culture arose. (I would even advance a tentative suggestion that the geographic, geological, and climatic conditions pertaining in europe are at least partly responsible for both the culture and the lack of melatonin)
(Don't forget for our USA folk at least a few of the European countries are non-white.)

And you are now another one talking about "the culture" yet not defining what culture you are talking about! It's getting a tad frustrating.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:24 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Warp, the problem is you haven't said did-dilly about the lives and rights of non-whites?

Your single focus on white victimhood suggests a certain bias.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Is this the thread to discuss the plight and concerns of non-whites?
Yes, especially since some might be immigrants and or non-citizens.

Quote:
I am trying to present a viewpoint, and some arguments, as to why such ideas as Replacement Theory might have merit, to some. I mean, that is the question posed in the thread title, right?
So I'll move it along by asking you if you think non-whites (i.e. those who might be thought to "replace" white Americans) immigrating to the U.S. have rights?

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Dope Clock II: It's been 329 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:26 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So I'll move it along by asking you if you think non-whites (i.e. those who might be thought to "replace" white Americans) immigrating to the U.S. have rights?

Of course they have rights, and I have not suggested that they don't, nor even that they should have less rights than whites.

Last edited by Warp12; 19th May 2022 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:33 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Of course they have rights, and I have not suggested that they don't, nor even that they should have less rights than whites.
So they have the right to immigrate?

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Dope Clock II: It's been 329 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:34 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So they have the right to immigrate?

Absolutely, within the established legal constraints.

Last edited by Warp12; 19th May 2022 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:34 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you aware how large and diverse Europe is? There are over 40 countries for a start, do you really think there is a shared culture that covers all those countries? And if so what is it?
There are two mutually-antagonistic cultures within the city of Derry/Londonderry for example.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:54 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So they have the right to immigrate?
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Absolutely, within the established legal constraints.
Ah, so now we get to the heart of the matter. . .provided the immigrant "follows the rules" may that right be restricted because the nation to which they are coming believes their immigration will help to make the country's culture and predominant race extinct?

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Dope Clock II: It's been 329 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

Last edited by arayder; 19th May 2022 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:00 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Ah, so now we get to the heart of the matter. . .provided the immigrant "follows the rules" may that right be restricted because the nation to which they are coming believes their immigration in help to make the country's culture and predominant race extinct?

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Dope Clock II: It's been 329 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

Don't try to twist things, here. They have rights, and those rights are determined and protected by law. I am just clarifying that there is a lawful process. I don't support illegals being granted the additional rights and privileges that are afforded to citizens. I don't support illegal immigration. The only way to prevent prevailing law from impacting these rights would be to have unrestricted immigration, which is not reasonable.

Last edited by Warp12; 19th May 2022 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:02 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
When the GOP still had a platform the Official position of both parties was that PR should decide there own fate be it Statehood, independence, or continueing as his, IIRC, both parties favored statehood over the alternatives though.

Personally, I favor reducing the size of the D.C. of Washington DC to the minimum required by the constitution and wrapping the rest of it back into which ever state makes the most sense. A city sized state seems a bit odd, that an issues with most of the other US territories becoming states, the are tiny for the most part.

When 90% of a group votes one way, its difficult to parse racism from partisan politics. Republicans didn't become the party of racism until long after the Black Americans starting voting Dem reliably.
DC has a larger population than Vermont and Wyoming.
Puerto Rico has a population larger than 20 states.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:03 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Don't try to twist things, here. They have rights, and those rights are determined and protected by law. I am just clarifying that there is a lawful process. I don't support illegals being granted the additional rights and privileges that are afforded to citizens. The only way to prevent prevailing law from impacting these rights would be to have unrestricted immigration, which is not reasonable.
So who's in charge of creating "the lawful processes?"

Betcha in your world it's white people.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:04 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Don't try to twist things, here. They have rights, and those rights are determined and protected by law. I am just clarifying that there is a lawful process. I don't support illegals being granted the additional rights and privileges that are afforded to citizens. I don't support illegal immigration. The only way to prevent prevailing law from impacting these rights would be to have unrestricted immigration, which is not reasonable.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So who's in charge of creating "the lawful processes?"

Betcha in your world it's white people.

Well, generally speaking, people who are elected or appointed to do so. They don't have to be white. I have not made such a claim.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:08 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Ah, so now we get to the heart of the matter. . .provided the immigrant "follows the rules" may that right be restricted because the nation to which they are coming believes their immigration will help to make the country's culture and predominant race extinct?
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Don't try to twist things, here. They have rights, and those rights are determined and protected by law. I am just clarifying that there is a lawful process. I don't support illegals being granted the additional rights and privileges that are afforded to citizens.
Not trying to twist anything. That's question that goes to the heart of the matter.

The replacement theory uses the specter of illegal aliens as a sort of boggie man, but the theory is really about the fear that non-white and non-Christians might wipe out the predominantly white, Christian culture of the U.S.

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Last edited by arayder; 19th May 2022 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:15 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, generally speaking, people who are elected or appointed to do so. They don't have to be white. I have not made such a claim.
Good job not actually answering the question.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:21 AM   #396
Warp12
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So who's in charge of creating "the lawful processes?"

Betcha in your world it's white people.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, generally speaking, people who are elected or appointed to do so. They don't have to be white. I have not made such a claim.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Good job not actually answering the question.
I did answer your question. Perhaps you need to pose it in a different manner.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:22 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Current "Affirmative Action" programs are a topic of their own, although I wouldn't be surprised if Replacement Theory touched on the subject.
Affirmative action has nothing to do with it. Implying that one must hark back to the days of slavery to find discrimination and hatred suggests an unfortunate lack of observation and perspective. The statement I was criticizing is both hyperbolic and ignorant.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:26 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Affirmative action has nothing to do with it. Implying that one must hark back to the days of slavery to find discrimination and hatred suggests an unfortunate lack of observation and perspective. The statement I was criticizing is both hyperbolic and ignorant.

I don't think you can discuss the realities of modern discrimination without broaching the topic of affirmative action programs. You may disagree, and I am OK with that. As I say, that is a different topic.
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Old 19th May 2022, 11:55 AM   #399
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Environmental racism rings a bell?
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Old 19th May 2022, 12:52 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Environmental racism rings a bell?
There was a concept that got tossed around the thinkpiece circuit a few years back; environmental colonialism.

Sure it sounds like someone trying to win a "Pair up the two most Left Wing 3rd rail buzzwords you can imagine" contest and winning but the basic idea, while I didn't quite agree with it fully, had some validity to it.

Basically the big players like America, Europe, maybe others only got really into pretending like they cared about the environment when it let them tell developing countries to not develop.

Like we're aware now of the damage an industrial revolution has on the environment, but also haven't really figured a replacement for it as a way to pull a society out of being stuck in the 1800s forever.

So now American, Europe, arguably China, all the big boys who have already had their industrial revolutions and benefitted from are now telling the rest of the developing world "Okay but you don't get to do because we're afraid it might be bad for the planet."
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