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Old 16th May 2022, 08:30 AM   #81
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As usual the sensationalist news media fails to point out none of the immigrants coming into this country can vote and they won't be able to vote for years and years even if they eventually are.
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Old 16th May 2022, 08:33 AM   #82
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Also this is America there's 250 million of us and like... 10 of us vote.
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Old 16th May 2022, 08:49 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Florida is one of the most populous states in the union, hardly an outlier.

Then head to south Texas. Many, many rural Hispanics are staunchly pro-life and very conservative.
I was about to chime in with this. Yes, South Texas is definitely Blue, but it's a different kind of Blue. You would be very surprised at the "man on the street" support for overturning Roe v. Wade and for stricter immigration controls. And in the past few elections there has been a shift towards being a bit more purple.

South Texas is very Catholic, very machismo-oriented which reflects the broader Hispanic culture. The Democratic Party has the reputation of being "for the little guy," (which is exactly how my Father-in-law and others of his generation have stated it) and I think it's that reputation that results in the historic support for the Dem Party, not any actual policy positions. But that historic support is eroding, make no mistake.

At the end of the day, I don't think there is anything to "Replacement theory," other than a thinly-veiled excuse for racism. The real issues are, of course, much more complex. "The races" are not monolithic blocks of voters or, more importantly, blocks of citizens who all want the same things.
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Old 16th May 2022, 08:57 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As usual the sensationalist news media fails to point out none of the immigrants coming into this country can vote and they won't be able to vote for years and years even if they eventually are.
Yeah, apparently whoever's doing this is playing the long game -- the really long game. And thus far it appears to be failing. Some conspiracy. Makes one wonder why they don't just stick with stealing elections, since it worked so well last time (something I suspect many adherents of "replacement theory" also believe).
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Old 16th May 2022, 08:57 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Um, source?
I was thinking of the impact of the 1924 and 1965 immigration acts. I agree that immigration still went on, but you see the rate of foreign born labour force participation dropping through that period.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:00 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Yes, this is currently allowed at the local level, in some areas.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/10/opini...yes/index.html

Right now it is just a Dem dream, at the national level.
you are proving my point of not knowing what you are talking about.

I clearly said "undocumented immigrants", not migrants with a legal right to be in the US.

I would take right-wingers more seriously on the subject if they would even make the attempt make a distinction between migrant workers, documented migrants, undocumented migrants and refugees.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:06 AM   #87
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Yeah but until "Not knowing what you are talking about" actually gets you excluded from decision making it's an advantage.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:20 AM   #88
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My wife and I have a very liberal friend who fears "being replaced".

Her take is very different.

She believes non-whites have been treated badly for years. She believes that "human nature being what it is" when anglo-whites become a minority they will get pushed aside.

My wife's counter argument is that, having been the victims of racism, non-whites would certainly not visit such hatred on others.

Makes ya' think.

--------------
Dope Clock II: It's been 327 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:21 AM   #89
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The fact that white people are terrified of what is going to happen when there is more of "them" then of us is kind of all the explanation you need though isn't it?
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:26 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
...snip...

My wife's counter argument is that, having been the victims of racism, non-whites would certainly not visit such hatred on others.

...snip...
Very sadly human history would seem to say that isn't the case.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:27 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
My wife and I have a very liberal friend who fears "being replaced".

Her take is very different.

She believes non-whites have been treated badly for years. She believes that "human nature being what it is" when anglo-whites become a minority they will get pushed aside.

My wife's counter argument is that, having been the victims of racism, non-whites would certainly not visit such hatred on others.

Makes ya' think.

--------------
Dope Clock II: It's been 327 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
South Africa.

Such a wonderful utopia.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:28 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
South Africa.

Such a wonderful utopia.
As opposed to when? When exactly where the "good ole days" of South Africa?
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:30 AM   #93
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Jesus Christ. People could not be pre-staging their "Now that racism (real, exaggerated, or imaged) is happening against white people I've decided now that it's the greatest justice evar!" routines more if the tried.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:30 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
We can't change the law. Republicans are scared of losing the election due to immigrant voters, so they are keeping immigration numbers low, even though a larger quota would make life much better for everyone. They are using immigration to change the election outcome.
800,000 a year is low? Says who?

I think its pretty ******* generous.

What other country allows so many yearly immigrants plus 100,000 refugees?

Why are you advocating for people who are not only not yet citizens, but don't even live here yet...or American citizens?

Are the needs of possible future residents and citizens of the USA equal to those of current Americans???
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:31 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
800,000 a year is low? Says who?

I think its pretty ******* generous.

What other country allows so many yearly immigrants plus 100,000 refugees?

Why are you advocating for people who are not only not yet citizens, but don't even live here yet?
Is national identity something that matters a lot to you?

I have more in common with the illegal immigrants living in my community than silver spoon ghouls like Carlson trying to gin up race hatred.

That's kinda the problem for the "White Replacement" morons, is that not even that many white people are that concerned about their pure white communities or even their pure white children as they would hope. Well adjusted white people will continue to live near, socialize with, and even procreate with, non-white people, much to the horror of white supremacists.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:32 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
As opposed to when? When exactly where the "good ole days" of South Africa?
I was responding to the concept that non-whites would be loving to whites if/when they attain majority control.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:33 AM   #97
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No, whites have no moral argument for keeping the USA majority white. History says they have none.

No, it is WRONG to not enforce immigration law so as to possibly in the future swing elections your way, in a quid pro quo.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:41 AM   #98
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It's akin the fear plantation owners in the old Deep South had about slave uprisings.

Ya' gotta' wonder if people who have **** on others are all too aware of how easy it is to rationalize and justify doing so. in the above case I think our friend just saw cruelty done so often.

While on the other hand fair, honest and loving people may have trouble believe that others could be cruel.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 327 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:41 AM   #99
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:44 AM   #100
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Well, there was the same theory about the evil Catholics going to outbreed all the good protestants in the Netherlands and turn the country into a papal dependency by abusing democracy, which is why they should not be given the vote or be allowed to re-establish the bishoprics.
This was in the early to mid 1800's

By now we are a country where more than 50% of the populations considers themselves non-religious.

So, I'm not too worried.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:46 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Well, there was the same theory about the evil Catholics going to outbreed all the good protestants in the Netherlands and turn the country into a papal dependency by abusing democracy, which is why they should not be given the vote or be allowed to re-establish the bishoprics.
This was in the early to mid 1800's

By now we are a country where more than 50% of the populations considers themselves non-religious.

So, I'm not too worried.
That's a little different. If Ireland suddenly sees a wave of conversions to Buddhism, its a matter of free choice.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:46 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
800,000 a year is low? Says who?
My amateur economic projections based on dropping birth rates.

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
What other country allows so many yearly immigrants plus 100,000 refugees?
You're right of course, the US is pretty welcoming compared to the rest of the world. Might be why it's such a global power.

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Why are you advocating for people who are not only not yet citizens, but don't even live here yet...or American citizens?

Are the needs of possible future residents and citizens of the USA equal to those of current Americans???
Because I don't see a net negative to people who are currently citizens if more people immigrate. I don't care about any specific "culture", so the only real concern is economical.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
My amateur economic projections based on dropping birth rates.



You're right of course, the US is pretty welcoming compared to the rest of the world. Might be why it's such a global power.



Because I don't see a net negative to people who are currently citizens if more people immigrate. I don't care about "culture", so the only real concern is economical.
So you don't believe in nations, and anyone who does you see as backwards? Ok.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I believe that its assumed that Latin immigrants will vote Blue, as its the Democrats who have been pushing for lax border enforcement and amnesty.
Non-citizens can't vote. Just how are these immigrants supposed to vote for Democrats?
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:49 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Non-citizens can't vote. Just how are these immigrants supposed to vote for Democrats?
Democrats are VERY adamant that any amnesty law includes path to citizenship to pretty much all but most recent illegal migrants.

An extra 10 million Democrats could have a big effect on control of the Senate and the White House.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:51 AM   #106
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There are also some folks who want to get rid of citizenship requirements for voting.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:52 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
There are also some folks who want to get rid of citizenship requirements for voting.
I'm sure some also want to get rid of residency requirements too.

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Old 16th May 2022, 09:54 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
It's akin the fear plantation owners in the old Deep South had about slave uprisings.
It's exactly the same.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:56 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So you don't believe in nations, and anyone who does you see as backwards? Ok.
What do you mean by nation?

Japan seems to be the most immediate demographic time bomb. Will it somehow be lessened by the inevitable mixing of local and foreign culture or will the emerging culture be just as valuable?
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:57 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Democrats are VERY adamant that any amnesty law includes path to citizenship to pretty much all but most recent illegal migrants.

An extra 10 million Democrats could have a big effect on control of the Senate and the White House.
Oh noes it make actually *checks notes* make the Senate more aligned with actual America instead of a minority that has cheated and gerrymandered their way into power.

Not that! Anything but that!
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:58 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
What do you mean by nation?
Exactly.
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Old 16th May 2022, 09:59 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
My amateur economic projections based on dropping birth rates.



You're right of course, the US is pretty welcoming compared to the rest of the world. Might be why it's such a global power.



Because I don't see a net negative to people who are currently citizens if more people immigrate. I don't care about any specific "culture", so the only real concern is economical.
I do not believe you, unless of course you'd be fine with a "culture" that required women to be accompanied by a male of their household when ever they leave the house. A culture were violent retaliation is required at any insult. A Culture that allowed for dog fights, rape, child marriage, etc.

Relatively extreme examples but I suspect strongly that you do actually care about the culture of the place you live in.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:00 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Exactly.
Answer the ******* question and stop being glib.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:03 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Answer the ******* question and stop being glib.
A nation is a group of people with similar background, history, culture, going back at least a few centuries.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:03 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I'm sure some also want to get rid of residency requirements too.

And there's people who want to forego election results all together, and just rule by force by storming the Capitol and preventing the government from executing the will of the people. And unlike your hypothetical boogeymen, the people I'm talking about have actually tried to put their plan in action, and still believe what they did was justified. Scariest of all, those people are real, they walk the streets, we meet them every day -- unlike the nebulous "some" to which racists like to refer when trying to find justification for their racism.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:04 AM   #116
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<Opinion tags on>

We have an aging population, jobs going unfilled and many of the filled jobs being poorly done.

We need workers, doers. And we shouldn't give hoot about their skin color, their language, their country of origin, or their religion as long as they accept the "American way" (whatever that is?).

Who gives a dang whether the great grandkids are darker then Paw Paw or go to a different house of worship?

It beats the hell out of living in a gated community being served by loafs too stupid to read your medic alert bracelet.

<Opinion tags off>

--------------
Dope Clock II: It's been 327 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:05 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
A nation is a group of people with similar background, history, culture, going back at least a few centuries.
Says who? By that definition, only a handful of nations exist. Hell, I'm not even sure the U.S.A. would qualify under those specifications.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:08 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I do not believe you, unless of course you'd be fine with a "culture" that required women to be accompanied by a male of their household when ever they leave the house. A culture were violent retaliation is required at any insult. A Culture that allowed for dog fights, rape, child marriage, etc.

Relatively extreme examples but I suspect strongly that you do actually care about the culture of the place you live in.
Okay, you're right. I do care. That was a little stupid. I guess I presume that humanity will naturally improve human rights as the lives of people improve, but that might be naive on my part.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:20 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Says who? By that definition, only a handful of nations exist. Hell, I'm not even sure the U.S.A. would qualify under those specifications.
I read a book by a guy called Walker Conner called Ethnonationalism: The Quest for Understanding. He's supposed to be the founder of nationalism studies. It's a while now, but my recollection is that he thinks for a nation to exist, you need some kind of shared national story, probably an origin story, that frames the people of the nation within the context of the nation. It's subjective, so it doesn't really matter what the actual ethnic origins of the people are, so long as they buy into their common identification as a nation and a people.

The US is a bit unique in that it genuinely is a nation of immigrants. What unites the US into a nation is the shared identification into this origin story of coming to the land of hope and opportunity and working their way up. You don't have to go back that far to find immigrants deliberately not passing on their native language to make sure their children were "American". What would destroy the US as a nation would be if large numbers of people stopped identifying with that origin story. What you then have is a whole bunch of different peoples from widely different cultures contending with each other.

He points out that most peoples never get a nation.

One of the big things in the book is the distinction between state, country and nation.
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Old 16th May 2022, 10:26 AM   #120
shuttlt
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Okay, you're right. I do care. That was a little stupid. I guess I presume that humanity will naturally improve human rights as the lives of people improve, but that might be naive on my part.
This is the same assumption that said it was fine to help grow the Chinese economy because it would lead to them becoming liberal. This is Fukuyama's end of history. There are countless examples of civilisations reaching (from the liberal standpoint) a high point, only to lose vigour and be overwhelmed by more vital barbarians.

Liberalism is culturally specific to a particular tradition that came out of northern Europe. There is nothing universally self evident about its "self evident" truths.
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