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17th May 2022, 05:34 AM | #161 |
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Good question. And the other question is what is "the American way"?
As far as I am concerned the immigrants don't have to speak English at home (they'll need the language out in the real world), dress American, and can go to any house of worship, or none at all, they choose. All they need accept are the laws of the country and support the Constitution and Bill of Rights. In effect they need to accept a pluralistic America. Over the years I have had a few observant Muslim friends and neighbors. In each case they readily accepted that they were living in a community with "regular Americans", including me. One family was involved in local politics and helped get the Muslim vote out for a Governor who respected their rights. All of the adults had good jobs in education, state government or local industries. The women in the families dressed modestly and covered their heads. The kids all excelled at school and helped out in the neighborhood. I had to tell the boys that I could mow my own lawn, thank you, and that is was good exercise for a 60 plus year old man. They are Americans as far as I am concerned. They are not replacing anyone. They are just living free. -------------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 05:49 AM | #162 |
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The Great Replacement theory is the Dumbest theory I have ever heard, because we are all ones species, it's not like Lizard Men are Invading the planet, at that I would be worried.
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17th May 2022, 05:50 AM | #163 |
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As I see it there is a sickening air of triumphantism to the replacement theory. It seems to be assumed that "caucasian culture" deserves some sort of protected status.
At its worst it is a sort of "blood and sand" dog whistle that apes Nazism. At a harmless level it means I can watch John Wayne movies by the Christmas tree while I clean my guns. -------------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 05:55 AM | #164 |
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No no no no, you need to realize that people who were born with a more pigmented skin and in a "********" country are automatically less intelligent, have no moral compass and are worth less in general. That's why it's so dangerous for us to mix with them or let them take over our countries with their suboptimal genes.
ETA Translated to racist: Countries should protect their culture. |
17th May 2022, 06:16 AM | #165 |
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17th May 2022, 06:43 AM | #166 |
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Here's a replacement highlighted in the above book.
In the late 1700's and early 1800's the Quaker dominance of Pennsylvania's culture (especially in western PA) was "replaced" by waves of immigrants often called "borderlanders", who were from the borders of Northern Ireland, northern England, and the Scottish lowlands. They established the culture of what Woodard calls Greater Appalachia. While the powers that be at the time managed to largely shut the borderlanders out of the Constitutional convention, these Appalachians subsequently managed to become the dominant force in Pennsylvania culture and politics. There are no stories of Quakers marching around with Tikki-Torches shouting "Hill Billies will not replace us!" -------------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 06:55 AM | #167 |
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17th May 2022, 06:56 AM | #168 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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17th May 2022, 07:04 AM | #169 |
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Yes, I saw that. Good post.
I think Pennsylvanians incorporated the German and Dutch cultures because they brought good beer to barbecues. I have no research to back this up. -------------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 07:10 AM | #170 |
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17th May 2022, 07:22 AM | #171 |
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It's a joke. Okay, a bad one.
Other colonial cultures had a bit of a problem with the Quakers because they didn't want to fight the native Americans. -------------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 07:23 AM | #172 |
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17th May 2022, 07:54 AM | #173 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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17th May 2022, 07:55 AM | #174 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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17th May 2022, 08:14 AM | #175 |
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17th May 2022, 08:24 AM | #176 |
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Good point. The exception that proves the rule?
The Quakers also helped defend Philadelphia against borderlanders who formed a militia (i.e. the Paxton Boys) in 1764 and attempted to storm the capital. ------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 09:27 AM | #177 |
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17th May 2022, 09:28 AM | #178 |
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17th May 2022, 09:52 AM | #179 |
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No we are not going to stop the discussion to define a Quaker as a distraction from your vile, racists ramblings.
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17th May 2022, 01:01 PM | #180 |
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Replacement theory has become more than just a theory. It has become a motivation for white suprematist mass shootings of blacks, latinos and Jews.
To get back to the OP. . .yeah, there is something to it. . .hate. The idea that one America's political parties has a more open immigration philosophy and that the other party has a more America first approach isn't really the question at hand. I don't think most Democratic leaders are trying to kick white people to the curb. And I don't think GOP leadership (some MAGA types excluded, IMHO) want white supremacy to capture the hearts and minds of Americans. But neither side is going to moan and protest if people use immigration and America's racial and ethic makeup as a reason to vote their way. But, that's not the question. The plain fact is some white suprematists are getting themselves all worked up on the theory and going out and shooting as many Jews, blacks and Latinos as they can before they get shot or arrested. ------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 01:25 PM | #181 |
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I guess my main question is something along the lines of, what does "replacement" actually look like? Is it some stranger who doesn't look like me showing up at my door some day and announcing in broken, heavily accented English that my property is now his and I need to get out? That is certainly what "replacement" implies, the physical removal of people from where they are now to some (most likely not as nice) elsewhere. Or is it more subtle than that, manifesting itself as more people voting for things such as universal health care and school spending?
I guess I'm not quite understanding what bad thing is supposed to happen at the end of all this. And if the answer is (as I suspect) something akin to "nothing super bad will happen, I just want to keep 'those people' out," then I suppose we have the answer to the OP question. |
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17th May 2022, 01:47 PM | #182 |
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It's much more like the latter. It's the claim that immigration is being used knowingly to turn the current majority into a minority whose ideas about what constitutes a just society will never again be allowed to be the dominant idea of the country. It's the replacement of one idea of the country by another through importing new citizens.
Suppose it was happening the other way and the immigrants were predominantly Ayn Rand and Pinochet fans and this was changing the country in a direction such that liberal politics would be in a permanent minority. Suppose further that this was being done by Trump. Would that be at all concerning? |
17th May 2022, 02:01 PM | #183 |
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Not to beat a dead horse but replacement theory holds that native-born Americans are being replaced so as to permanently transform the landscape of the nation.
The Great Replacement Theory is one thing when stated as a hypothesis. But, the practical response to it is quite another thing. The problem is that white nationalists and Nazis use the fear invoking theory as an excuse to shoot up anybody who isn't white, be they native born or not. Be it the attack on the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, the 2019 El Paso shooting or the latest Buffalo shooting the Great Replacement Theory gets used as a simple minded excuse to kill non-whites. ------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 02:11 PM | #184 |
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Oh yeah, it would be concerning as hell. But my solution wouldn't be to make it harder to immigrate, because (let's face it) almost all of us living in the USA are the products of immigration -- it's just a question of how far back you want to go (in my case, a mere 2 generations). So I'm not going to be a hypocrite about it.
Instead, I'd work to enlighten people about why I think the values I support comprise the best direction for the country. If I am right, I think there's a pretty good chance people will come around eventually (I have a fair amount of faith in the basic decency of most humans, irrespective of background). If I'm not, maybe I'll learn something I wouldn't have, had I remained surrounded by like-thinking folks. |
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17th May 2022, 02:18 PM | #185 |
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I think we should replace the purveyors of Replacement Theory with some smarter people.
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17th May 2022, 02:33 PM | #186 |
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17th May 2022, 02:35 PM | #187 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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17th May 2022, 02:37 PM | #188 |
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Or n the case of the Tree of Life, non Christian.
It is interesting how in the post couple of years, the Christian Natinalists have pretty much dropped the "Judeo/CHristian ethics" routine in favor of out and out Christian, and I have no doubt they will soon insert "Protestent Christian" into the equation. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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17th May 2022, 02:50 PM | #189 |
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...adly-narrowly/
‘Great replacement theory’ is ignorant both broadly and narrowly
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 02:56 PM | #190 |
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17th May 2022, 03:01 PM | #191 |
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It would only be hypocritical if you had some kind of universalist view where you didn't think citizens should be preferred to non-citizens. Is it hypocritical to care more for one's own children than other peoples? You only run into these problems if you have some universalist, rationalistic conception of your country where if it was OK for your ancestor to come, then there must be some "right" to do that and since rights are universal, the right must still exist.
That is generally not how it works.The conceptions of rights and your values are culturally specific to you and the culture you were brought up in. They are no more universal than the culture in Iran or China. The idea that you can be reasoned into a set of values is like imagining you can be reasoned into a religion... I'm sure it happens, but it is a rare event. Values aren't products of reason. |
17th May 2022, 03:19 PM | #192 |
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Since non-citizens can't vote in the U.S. one has to ask what your point is?
Quote:
------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 03:31 PM | #193 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't see how this relates.
I suppose everybody can adopt them, the question is do they adopt them? If for some reason I moved to Afghanistan, I am sure I would in some sense be capable of adopting the Taliban's values, but I'm not sure that I really would. We aren't talking about theoretical models of immigration, we are talking about actual immigration. |
17th May 2022, 03:38 PM | #194 |
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So "we" are going to be replaced by non-voting, non-citizens? How does that work?
Quote:
And if being so doesn't it seem likely that some folks would figure they can just shoot 'em? ------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 03:43 PM | #195 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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17th May 2022, 03:44 PM | #196 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You've misunderstood the point I was replying to. It was about how it was hypocritical for Americans to make it hard for immigrants to come to America.
You need to respond to what people say rather than make up positions for them. That's how arguments and debates work. Otherwise you're just playing with yourself. |
17th May 2022, 03:51 PM | #197 |
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Well, what is your position, besides telling others what to say?
So far it seems to be that there is some sort of cultural magic that gets passed down from one American generation to another and that Chinese and Iranians (as opposed to the Irish, Germans and the Dutch) can't grasp that magic. ------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 03:59 PM | #198 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Isn't it remarkable how frequently Protestants kids grow up Protestant, and Catholic kids grow up Catholic. Culture is the same. Irish, German and Dutch culture comes from the same cultural routes, at various distances of removal, that American culture originally came from.
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17th May 2022, 04:08 PM | #199 |
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So naturalized citizens should adopt not only the magic American cultural values but those of the European countries from which they came?
Funny how they didn't put that in the oath of citizenship: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God." ------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 04:11 PM | #200 |
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I personally dont care if the USA becomes majority Hispanic, through legal immigration and natural growth.
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