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17th May 2022, 04:16 PM | #201 |
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I'm not sure your answer makes any sense. I of course care about U.S. citizens. But not to the exclusion of everyone else in the world (and part of your argument appears perilously close to the old "but think of the children!!" cliché). In any case, I hardly need to adopt a "universalist" view to recognize how hypocritical it would be for me to make immigration difficult for others, when I myself am a direct and relatively recent beneficiary of immigration.
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17th May 2022, 04:32 PM | #202 |
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17th May 2022, 05:25 PM | #203 |
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ETA: I am, given that the threads you have recently started have been clear attempts to rehabilitate the fundamentally racist 'replacement theory', unconvinced that this is an honest statement of your beliefs. I accept that I might be wrong. ETA2: Do we really need two threads of this crap? |
17th May 2022, 05:27 PM | #204 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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17th May 2022, 05:29 PM | #205 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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17th May 2022, 06:16 PM | #206 |
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17th May 2022, 09:48 PM | #207 |
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Isn't it remarkable how many people have left the Churches, and how many more simply don't go anymore?
Atheism is at an all-time high, despite the fact hat most immigrants to the US come from deeply religious countries. Cultural Change happens, and it's a fallacy to blame it on immigration, or assume that one could prevent it from happening. |
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17th May 2022, 09:49 PM | #208 |
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So. Who is supposed to be replaced?
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17th May 2022, 09:58 PM | #209 |
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17th May 2022, 10:04 PM | #210 |
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17th May 2022, 10:07 PM | #211 |
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It's weird that Evangelicals are worried about Replacement, given that the best thing that could possibly happen to them, according to their Beliefs, is to get Raptured, literally letting themselves get replaced on Earth by those less pious then them.
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17th May 2022, 10:41 PM | #212 |
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The replacement argument is about denying cultural change and rejecting the notion that cultures might share positive traits. The argument is that individuals and families are the slaves of their cultures.
I suspect the Protestants-grow-up-Protestant and Catholics-grow-up-Catholic line is a back handed way of inferring that immigrates to this country will spawn generations of decidedly un-assimilated families, thus destroying the fabric of the country. The message is not that Christians will be Christians but that Muslims, latinos, blacks and Jews will, generations from now, be cancers on the American culture. This canard ignores decades and decades of America's successful pluralistic society. -------------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
17th May 2022, 11:14 PM | #213 |
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18th May 2022, 12:02 AM | #214 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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18th May 2022, 12:49 AM | #215 |
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18th May 2022, 01:11 AM | #216 |
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This is a universalist view. You see morality as being timeless and rationalistic and applying to all people and understood from the perspective of the individual. You think it's unfair that one system of rules for immigration existed 100 years ago that might have allowed somebody in, but now the descendents of people who came in want a different set of rules that would have kept out their ancestor. This is a very particular moral perspective coming out of a particular cultural tradition.
Let's pick an example. The first self evidence "truth" in the declaration of independence - "that all men are created equal". That comes out of the equality of souls in Christianity. It is a secularised version of a particular strand of a religious tradition. This self evidence truth has not been self evidence for most of the history of the west, and is certainly not self evident outside of that tradition. One can certainly ask immigrants to agree to abide by the laws of the culture they are moving in to. Unless they adopt the cultural tradition that sits behind those laws and make them their own, they will in fact have a radically different conception of these things. That's how in the UK you can have only 18% of British muslims thinking homosexuality should be legal and 23% wanting Sharia law, 39% say wives should always obey their husbands. It is a different cultural tradition with different values. |
18th May 2022, 04:23 AM | #217 |
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18th May 2022, 05:19 AM | #218 |
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Yes, what a cheap little debate trick. First we get a self serving story about the source of a phrase in the Declaration of Independence.
Then our poster digs up some unnotated polling results that suggest Muslims in the U.K. (not the U.S.) are so culturally out of step with mainstream U.K. culture that they can't obey U.K. law . . . .which doesn't include the Declaration of Independence. ------------- Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth. |
18th May 2022, 05:36 AM | #219 |
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The whole "White purity" thing, outside of just being horrible, isn't very practical if you step back and look at the numbers.
There's a graphic floating around the internet that shows a world map with a small circle that encircles only China, most of Indonesia, and India and points out that "More people live in this circle than outside it." Even if you're a racist terrified of the world running out of white... I mean what do you plan on doing about it exactly? The numbers are what they are. |
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18th May 2022, 05:39 AM | #220 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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18th May 2022, 05:43 AM | #221 |
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18th May 2022, 05:49 AM | #222 |
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A good place to look at understanding British society and how attitudes have changed over very recent times (and if it's in my adult years it is still recent times you young whippersnappers!) : https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-...sexuality.aspx It's part of the British Social Attitudes survey that's been tracking social issues since 1983. And of course it paints a picture that is much more complex than shuttit's simplistic proclamations. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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18th May 2022, 06:10 AM | #223 |
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18th May 2022, 06:19 AM | #224 |
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I should point out that this tradition of the "equality of souls", exists in both Judaism and Islam. Further the notion that some sort of equality exists among Humans also exists in the Confucian traditions of China and East Asia, to say nothing of Buddhism. It is interesting to note that in Hinduism the notion of the "equality of souls", does not exist, after all that is the philosophical basis of the caste system. Despite that India has adopted fairly successfully Western style Democracy etc. So this idea of "equality of souls" doesn't seem to be essential to Western Style Democracy etc. I should also point out that the doctrine of "equality of souls" and "all men are created equal" doesn't prevent the estblishment of systems of legal oppression and equality. The Cynics and the Stoics despite their beliefs had no problem with slavery, serfdom or autocratic rule in general. They just thought of different justifications etc., for them. Christianity, Islam and Judaism had no problems for centuries with slavery, serfdom etc., either. In fact in Chrstianity, Islam and Judaism th ideal form of government for century upon century was Autocratic Monarchy, which was felt to mirror the rule of God of the Universe, so of course was therefore ideal. A basic principle in those three religions, believed by many, was what really counted was the life after death and your life here was not very important so in the grand scheme of things the fact you werer a slave or serf etc., didn't really matter, it was all unimportant compared to the life to come. Thus - Shut up and obey the powers that be. (Of course this idea was most definetly not confined to those three religions.) Interestingly in Confucian China there was generally more social mobility than in Christian Europe, Islam for quite sometime, a lot of it due to the meritocrachy principles in Confucianism, which taught "Gentlemen" are educated into being "Gentlemen" not born that way. (The Chinese Examination system was also an outgrowth of this mentality.) As for this:
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In the US it is even more extreme, in the sheer number of Christian Fundamentalists who want the establishment of what amounts to a Theocracy and the establishment of "Biblical Law", which has large similarities to notions of Sharia Law domination. (It also appears that in some US states a majority of Republicans support the banning of inter-racial marriage also along with something like "Biblical Law".) (I could also mention groups within the US like the Amish and Hutterrites.) With that in perspective the "fact" that 23% of British Muslims want established Sharia Law and 39% want wives to always obey husbands doesn't worry me unduly. (It also means 77% of Brtish Muslims do not support the establishment of Sharia Law and 61% don't support the notion that wivesshould always obey their husbands.) In 1950 just how many in Britain would have wanted Homosexuality legal? Less than half I would say, and what would their response have been to the other questions? So in some respects modern British Muslims are two generations off. |
18th May 2022, 06:28 AM | #225 |
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18th May 2022, 06:41 AM | #226 |
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I honestly believe that one of the goals of very loose immigration rules, and rules being poorly enforced, and rules being easily ignored, is to increase the Democrat voting base in many possible swing states. Texas is one. Florida may be another.
Its why they want to give statehood to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Its not a secret. It would likely mean 4 new Democrat Senators. Now, dilute and further reduce the white majority? Naa. I see no reason to believe that. There's no reason to achieve such a thing. It makes no difference. |
18th May 2022, 06:41 AM | #227 |
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18th May 2022, 06:56 AM | #228 |
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Yes, early Christian ideas came out of older Greek ones that come from Bachus cults.
And yet, you then have other ideas that men have their place in the great chain of being. You have ideas that some are chosen by God to be saved, and others are not. Did medieval european society believe that all men were equal in an Earthly sense, I do not think that they did. The earliest I can think of those examples breaking free from the equality of the soul, though I'm sure there are earlier examples, is in the aftermath of the English Civil War. I didn't say that ideas regarding equality were unique to this particular thread of Western thought. It is not a universal concept though. Well, they were occupied by the British for quite a while. Does the average Indian believe "all men are created equal" in the American sense? It's quite a subversive doctrine. All societies are hierarchical to some degree and form an aristocratic class. The idea that we are all equal is a constant call to upend the hierarchy. It is really helpful to have your system of government legitimised by the beliefs of the society. When they clash for any length of time, it is a sign that the ruling regime is on the way out. Sure, equality of souls is not the same as Earthly equality. Plus, Greek society would have collapsed had they tried for Earthy equality and indeed did collapse at about the time that these ideas arrived on the scene. Yes. Liberal truths are not self evident. Yes. And? Maybe. I don't know what the point of showing me this is other than to reinforce the idea that different cultural traditions can persist for long periods of time and be deeply and profoundly incompatible. That is my point. It doesn't really mean that. Most are ambivalent about it. Oh, certainly... these kinds of liberalisations are typically done against public sentiment. Is there a single path that all cultures go down? Muslims in Britain will see our society and embrace it? Maybe. That doesn't seem to have happened with evangelicals in the US. Maybe. You seem to think that there is some inevitable direction that cultures move in. Yet evangelicals don't seem to have moved in that direction. Why would we think Muslims will move in that direction in a couple of generations when evangelicals haven't? |
18th May 2022, 06:58 AM | #229 |
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Then can you explain the fact that former presidents Gerald Ford and George H.W. Bush both supported statehood for P.R., as well as the likes of Mitt Romney, Rick Scott, Marco Rubio, and Jeb Bush, all Republicans in good standing? And if it would be such a slam dunk for the Democrats, why hasn't it already happened, since it plays so well into their "agenda" and would pay off instantly (as opposed to waiting years while immigrants gain citizenship and start voting)?
As for the U.S.V.I., I was unaware that there was anything resembling a serious active initiative to grant them statehood, at least not within the past 30 years or so. Who, exactly, is pushing that idea these days? (Kind of surprised you didn't mention D.C., although perhaps that would be harder to disguise as an "immigration" issue as opposed to plain ol' racism.) |
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18th May 2022, 07:02 AM | #230 |
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18th May 2022, 07:04 AM | #231 |
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The line of thought that runs through Paine comes from particular schools of thought and dogmas in Christianity. You see these ideas in radical protestants during the English Civil War period. There are then earlier forms of it going back further. Ideas of equality before the law and so on have a long tradition predating liberalism, the enlightenment and all the rest of it.
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18th May 2022, 07:07 AM | #232 |
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One of the biggest troll tactics in the last few years has acting like "fairness" isn't a concept that can exist outside of which side gets an advantage, leading to this kind of insane...
"Your side will win if the system if fair/not insane, my side will win if the system is unfair/insane, so ergo ipso facto you wanting a fair system is the exact same thing logically, morally, and legally as you just wanting your side to win." ... argument. That's why Republicans basically started arguing "If you don't let us suppress voters it's just an unfair advantage given to the Democrats" a while back. If you can only win at chess by cheating at chess, demanding that you don't cheat at chess is not the same as not letting you win at chess, no matter how much spin you put on it. |
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18th May 2022, 07:08 AM | #233 |
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18th May 2022, 07:09 AM | #234 |
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"Democrats not being racist gives them an unfair advantage."
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18th May 2022, 07:11 AM | #235 |
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18th May 2022, 07:11 AM | #236 |
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18th May 2022, 07:13 AM | #237 |
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"Everyone is secretly just as horrible as me, they are just hiding it" must be a comforting fact for horrible people to believe.
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18th May 2022, 07:17 AM | #238 |
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18th May 2022, 07:19 AM | #239 |
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18th May 2022, 07:19 AM | #240 |
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