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Old 17th May 2022, 04:16 PM   #201
Stellafane
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It would only be hypocritical if you had some kind of universalist view where you didn't think citizens should be preferred to non-citizens. Is it hypocritical to care more for one's own children than other peoples? You only run into these problems if you have some universalist, rationalistic conception of your country where if it was OK for your ancestor to come, then there must be some "right" to do that and since rights are universal, the right must still exist.
I'm not sure your answer makes any sense. I of course care about U.S. citizens. But not to the exclusion of everyone else in the world (and part of your argument appears perilously close to the old "but think of the children!!" cliché). In any case, I hardly need to adopt a "universalist" view to recognize how hypocritical it would be for me to make immigration difficult for others, when I myself am a direct and relatively recent beneficiary of immigration.

Quote:
That is generally not how it works. The conceptions of rights and your values are culturally specific to you and the culture you were brought up in. They are no more universal than the culture in Iran or China. The idea that you can be reasoned into a set of values is like imagining you can be reasoned into a religion... I'm sure it happens, but it is a rare event. Values aren't products of reason.
I don't agree. There are a core set of values and beliefs that are pretty much universal across cultures. Sure, there are plenty of differences. But there's enough common ground for people to interact successfully, irrespective of background. The USA after all is a nation of laws, and though they evolve and adapt to the times as required, they are meant to apply to everyone. Adhere to those laws and I don't care where you come from or what you look like, you're welcome to be my neighbor.
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Old 17th May 2022, 04:32 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I am reading American Nations by Colin Woodard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nations
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Interesting fun book but I would take a lot of it with a ton of salt.
Yes, I found his characterization of Appalachian culture to be troubling.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 327 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 17th May 2022, 05:25 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I personally dont care if the USA becomes majority Hispanic, through legal immigration and natural growth.
Bollocks.

ETA: I am, given that the threads you have recently started have been clear attempts to rehabilitate the fundamentally racist 'replacement theory', unconvinced that this is an honest statement of your beliefs.

I accept that I might be wrong.

ETA2: Do we really need two threads of this crap?

no, we don't.
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Old 17th May 2022, 05:27 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's much more like the latter. It's the claim that immigration is being used knowingly to turn the current majority into a minority whose ideas about what constitutes a just society will never again be allowed to be the dominant idea of the country. It's the replacement of one idea of the country by another through importing new citizens.


Suppose it was happening the other way and the immigrants were predominantly Ayn Rand and Pinochet fans and this was changing the country in a direction such that liberal politics would be in a permanent minority. Suppose further that this was being done by Trump. Would that be at all concerning?
Suppose pigs flew, wouldn't you regret not being allowed to own a bazooka?
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Old 17th May 2022, 05:29 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I personally dont care if the USA becomes majority Hispanic, through legal immigration and natural growth.
So have you reversed your apparent endorsement of deporting citizens? Or is that only for blacks.
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Old 17th May 2022, 06:16 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So since the Chinese person and the Muslin from Iran probably can't/won't adopt American values they are in a sense cultural inferior to "us"?

I frequently hear complaints that immigrants these days don't assimilate into American culture "like they used to". I guess all those Chinatowns, Little Italys, Greektowns, and other ethnic communities in US cities are a completely new phenomenon.
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Old 17th May 2022, 09:48 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Isn't it remarkable how frequently Protestants kids grow up Protestant, and Catholic kids grow up Catholic. Culture is the same. Irish, German and Dutch culture comes from the same cultural routes, at various distances of removal, that American culture originally came from.
Isn't it remarkable how many people have left the Churches, and how many more simply don't go anymore?
Atheism is at an all-time high, despite the fact hat most immigrants to the US come from deeply religious countries.

Cultural Change happens, and it's a fallacy to blame it on immigration, or assume that one could prevent it from happening.
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Old 17th May 2022, 09:49 PM   #208
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So. Who is supposed to be replaced?
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Old 17th May 2022, 09:58 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
So. Who is supposed to be replaced?
everyone else with a clone of me, obviously.
Because everyone has a right to my own opinion.
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Old 17th May 2022, 10:04 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
everyone else with a clone of me, obviously.
Because everyone has a right to my own opinion.
If people are being replaced with scary immigrants, where do the 'replaced' go? Canada? Antarctica?
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Old 17th May 2022, 10:07 PM   #211
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It's weird that Evangelicals are worried about Replacement, given that the best thing that could possibly happen to them, according to their Beliefs, is to get Raptured, literally letting themselves get replaced on Earth by those less pious then them.
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Old 17th May 2022, 10:41 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Isn't it remarkable how frequently Protestants kids grow up Protestant, and Catholic kids grow up Catholic. Culture is the same. Irish, German and Dutch culture comes from the same cultural routes, at various distances of removal, that American culture originally came from.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Isn't it remarkable how many people have left the Churches, and how many more simply don't go anymore?
Atheism is at an all-time high, despite the fact hat most immigrants to the US come from deeply religious countries.

Cultural Change happens, and it's a fallacy to blame it on immigration, or assume that one could prevent it from happening.
The replacement argument is about denying cultural change and rejecting the notion that cultures might share positive traits. The argument is that individuals and families are the slaves of their cultures.

I suspect the Protestants-grow-up-Protestant and Catholics-grow-up-Catholic line is a back handed way of inferring that immigrates to this country will spawn generations of decidedly un-assimilated families, thus destroying the fabric of the country.

The message is not that Christians will be Christians but that Muslims, latinos, blacks and Jews will, generations from now, be cancers on the American culture.

This canard ignores decades and decades of America's successful pluralistic society.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 17th May 2022, 11:14 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
If people are being replaced with scary immigrants, where do the 'replaced' go? Canada? Antarctica?
No...they have found a new way...by way of penises and wombs. Slowly the pure white brother hood will be tainted by less than white progeny.
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Old 18th May 2022, 12:02 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Isn't it remarkable how many people have left the Churches, and how many more simply don't go anymore?
Atheism is at an all-time high, despite the fact hat most immigrants to the US come from deeply religious countries.

Cultural Change happens, and it's a fallacy to blame it on immigration, or assume that one could prevent it from happening.
It’s also factually wrong to assume there is “a” culture that is shared by all the “native” population. Shutit is confusing “society” with “culture” (and vice-a-versa).
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Old 18th May 2022, 12:49 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Isn't it remarkable how many people have left the Churches, and how many more simply don't go anymore?
Atheism is at an all-time high, despite the fact hat most immigrants to the US come from deeply religious countries.

Cultural Change happens, and it's a fallacy to blame it on immigration, or assume that one could prevent it from happening.
We were talking about whether people where reasoned in and out of their values. That is not what happens.
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Old 18th May 2022, 01:11 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I'm not sure your answer makes any sense. I of course care about U.S. citizens. But not to the exclusion of everyone else in the world (and part of your argument appears perilously close to the old "but think of the children!!" cliché). In any case, I hardly need to adopt a "universalist" view to recognize how hypocritical it would be for me to make immigration difficult for others, when I myself am a direct and relatively recent beneficiary of immigration.
This is a universalist view. You see morality as being timeless and rationalistic and applying to all people and understood from the perspective of the individual. You think it's unfair that one system of rules for immigration existed 100 years ago that might have allowed somebody in, but now the descendents of people who came in want a different set of rules that would have kept out their ancestor. This is a very particular moral perspective coming out of a particular cultural tradition.

Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I don't agree. There are a core set of values and beliefs that are pretty much universal across cultures. Sure, there are plenty of differences. But there's enough common ground for people to interact successfully, irrespective of background. The USA after all is a nation of laws, and though they evolve and adapt to the times as required, they are meant to apply to everyone. Adhere to those laws and I don't care where you come from or what you look like, you're welcome to be my neighbor.
Let's pick an example. The first self evidence "truth" in the declaration of independence - "that all men are created equal". That comes out of the equality of souls in Christianity. It is a secularised version of a particular strand of a religious tradition. This self evidence truth has not been self evidence for most of the history of the west, and is certainly not self evident outside of that tradition.

One can certainly ask immigrants to agree to abide by the laws of the culture they are moving in to. Unless they adopt the cultural tradition that sits behind those laws and make them their own, they will in fact have a radically different conception of these things. That's how in the UK you can have only 18% of British muslims thinking homosexuality should be legal and 23% wanting Sharia law, 39% say wives should always obey their husbands. It is a different cultural tradition with different values.
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Old 18th May 2022, 04:23 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This is a universalist view. You see morality as being timeless and rationalistic and applying to all people and understood from the perspective of the individual. You think it's unfair that one system of rules for immigration existed 100 years ago that might have allowed somebody in, but now the descendents of people who came in want a different set of rules that would have kept out their ancestor. This is a very particular moral perspective coming out of a particular cultural tradition.


Let's pick an example. The first self evidence "truth" in the declaration of independence - "that all men are created equal". That comes out of the equality of souls in Christianity. It is a secularised version of a particular strand of a religious tradition. This self evidence truth has not been self evidence for most of the history of the west, and is certainly not self evident outside of that tradition.

One can certainly ask immigrants to agree to abide by the laws of the culture they are moving in to. Unless they adopt the cultural tradition that sits behind those laws and make them their own, they will in fact have a radically different conception of these things. That's how in the UK you can have only 18% of British muslims thinking homosexuality should be legal and 23% wanting Sharia law, 39% say wives should always obey their husbands. It is a different cultural tradition with different values.
Racist does not understand the concept of "All are equal". More news at 11.
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Old 18th May 2022, 05:19 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Let's pick an example. The first self evidence "truth" in the declaration of independence - "that all men are created equal". That comes out of the equality of souls in Christianity. It is a secularised version of a particular strand of a religious tradition. This self evidence truth has not been self evidence for most of the history of the west, and is certainly not self evident outside of that tradition.

One can certainly ask immigrants to agree to abide by the laws of the culture they are moving in to. Unless they adopt the cultural tradition that sits behind those laws and make them their own, they will in fact have a radically different conception of these things. That's how in the UK you can have only 18% of British muslims thinking homosexuality should be legal and 23% wanting Sharia law, 39% say wives should always obey their husbands. It is a different cultural tradition with different values.
Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Racist does not understand the concept of "All are equal". More news at 11.
Yes, what a cheap little debate trick. First we get a self serving story about the source of a phrase in the Declaration of Independence.

Then our poster digs up some unnotated polling results that suggest Muslims in the U.K. (not the U.S.) are so culturally out of step with mainstream U.K. culture that they can't obey U.K. law . . . .which doesn't include the Declaration of Independence.

-------------
Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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Old 18th May 2022, 05:36 AM   #219
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The whole "White purity" thing, outside of just being horrible, isn't very practical if you step back and look at the numbers.

There's a graphic floating around the internet that shows a world map with a small circle that encircles only China, most of Indonesia, and India and points out that "More people live in this circle than outside it."

Even if you're a racist terrified of the world running out of white... I mean what do you plan on doing about it exactly? The numbers are what they are.
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Old 18th May 2022, 05:39 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
...snip..


Let's pick an example. The first self evidence "truth" in the declaration of independence - "that all men are created equal". That comes out of the equality of souls in Christianity. It is a secularised version of a particular strand of a religious tradition. ...snip....
A certain Mr T Paine would disagree with you.
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Old 18th May 2022, 05:43 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Seems "true" Replacement Theorists believe there is an attempt at white genocide, by means of non-white immigration, inter-racial marriages, low birth rate amongst white couples, etc. Obviously its silly.

But what if Replacement Theory is about politics rather than race?

What if there is a not so secret attempt to turn Red states purple and even Blue, by means of illegal immigration and eventual amnesty which provides citizenship and voting rights to tens of millions of illegals?

There is some basis for such a theory. There is some basis for thinking that one of the agendas of liberal attitudes towards illegal immigration on the southern border is to bring in lots of folks from communities that traditionally vote Blue and use them to help swing elections.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rple/81224392/

Majority of Hispanics vote Democrat. Everyone knows this. Not too crazy to see how amnesty and voting rights for 13 million illegals could definitely help turn some Red states purple, especially of the folks who gave them their amnesty and voting rights are Democrats.

Is this paranoid thinking? Democrats would never dare think of such a hush-hush strategy to win national elections? I dont think it is. I myself am a Democrat and could definitely see this as being a long-term goal of refusing to do hard core enforcement at the border. Obviously building a border barrier would make such a goal harder, which I believe is partially why there was such anger at the idea of Trump's wall. Although the Democrats did almost give Trump his wall, in exchange for DACA, which Trump refused.
Highlighting mine...

I seriously doubt that, given the nature of the threads you are starting...
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Old 18th May 2022, 05:49 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Yes, what a cheap little debate trick. First we get a self serving story about the source of a phrase in the Declaration of Independence.

Then our poster digs up some unnotated polling results that suggest Muslims in the U.K. (not the U.S.) are so culturally out of step with mainstream U.K. culture that they can't obey U.K. law . . . .which doesn't include the Declaration of Independence.

-------------
Dope Clock II: It's been 328 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

A good place to look at understanding British society and how attitudes have changed over very recent times (and if it's in my adult years it is still recent times you young whippersnappers!) : https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-...sexuality.aspx It's part of the British Social Attitudes survey that's been tracking social issues since 1983.

And of course it paints a picture that is much more complex than shuttit's simplistic proclamations.
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Old 18th May 2022, 06:10 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I read a book by a guy called Walker Conner called Ethnonationalism: The Quest for Understanding. He's supposed to be the founder of nationalism studies. It's a while now, but my recollection is that he thinks for a nation to exist, you need some kind of shared national story, probably an origin story, that frames the people of the nation within the context of the nation. It's subjective, so it doesn't really matter what the actual ethnic origins of the people are, so long as they buy into their common identification as a nation and a people.

The US is a bit unique in that it genuinely is a nation of immigrants. What unites the US into a nation is the shared identification into this origin story of coming to the land of hope and opportunity and working their way up. You don't have to go back that far to find immigrants deliberately not passing on their native language to make sure their children were "American". What would destroy the US as a nation would be if large numbers of people stopped identifying with that origin story. What you then have is a whole bunch of different peoples from widely different cultures contending with each other.

He points out that most peoples never get a nation.

One of the big things in the book is the distinction between state, country and nation.
Highlighting mine...

Isn't it a nation of illegal immigrants? I don't believe you were invited in...
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Old 18th May 2022, 06:19 AM   #224
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Quote:
Let's pick an example. The first self evidence "truth" in the declaration of independence - "that all men are created equal". That comes out of the equality of souls in Christianity. It is a secularised version of a particular strand of a religious tradition. This self evidence truth has not been self evidence for most of the history of the west, and is certainly not self evident outside of that tradition.
Hilarious. Aside from ignoring the Greek philosophical traditions of Cynicism and Stoicism which most emphatically did accept the so-called "equality of souls". (Althought what the hell is a "soul".)

I should point out that this tradition of the "equality of souls", exists in both Judaism and Islam. Further the notion that some sort of equality exists among Humans also exists in the Confucian traditions of China and East Asia, to say nothing of Buddhism.

It is interesting to note that in Hinduism the notion of the "equality of souls", does not exist, after all that is the philosophical basis of the caste system. Despite that India has adopted fairly successfully Western style Democracy etc. So this idea of "equality of souls" doesn't seem to be essential to Western Style Democracy etc.

I should also point out that the doctrine of "equality of souls" and "all men are created equal" doesn't prevent the estblishment of systems of legal oppression and equality.

The Cynics and the Stoics despite their beliefs had no problem with slavery, serfdom or autocratic rule in general. They just thought of different justifications etc., for them.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism had no problems for centuries with slavery, serfdom etc., either. In fact in Chrstianity, Islam and Judaism th ideal form of government for century upon century was Autocratic Monarchy, which was felt to mirror the rule of God of the Universe, so of course was therefore ideal.

A basic principle in those three religions, believed by many, was what really counted was the life after death and your life here was not very important so in the grand scheme of things the fact you werer a slave or serf etc., didn't really matter, it was all unimportant compared to the life to come. Thus - Shut up and obey the powers that be. (Of course this idea was most definetly not confined to those three religions.)

Interestingly in Confucian China there was generally more social mobility than in Christian Europe, Islam for quite sometime, a lot of it due to the meritocrachy principles in Confucianism, which taught "Gentlemen" are educated into being "Gentlemen" not born that way. (The Chinese Examination system was also an outgrowth of this mentality.)

As for this:

Quote:
One can certainly ask immigrants to agree to abide by the laws of the culture they are moving in to. Unless they adopt the cultural tradition that sits behind those laws and make them their own, they will in fact have a radically different conception of these things. That's how in the UK you can have only 18% of British muslims thinking homosexuality should be legal and 23% wanting Sharia law, 39% say wives should always obey their husbands. It is a different cultural tradition with different values.
Aside from pointing out that certain other groups within British society, (Evangelicals, Christian Fundamentalists), have similar ideas about female subordination, homosexuality etc., and the establishment of religious laws has laws of the state.

In the US it is even more extreme, in the sheer number of Christian Fundamentalists who want the establishment of what amounts to a Theocracy and the establishment of "Biblical Law", which has large similarities to notions of Sharia Law domination. (It also appears that in some US states a majority of Republicans support the banning of inter-racial marriage also along with something like "Biblical Law".) (I could also mention groups within the US like the Amish and Hutterrites.)

With that in perspective the "fact" that 23% of British Muslims want established Sharia Law and 39% want wives to always obey husbands doesn't worry me unduly. (It also means 77% of Brtish Muslims do not support the establishment of Sharia Law and 61% don't support the notion that wivesshould always obey their husbands.)

In 1950 just how many in Britain would have wanted Homosexuality legal? Less than half I would say, and what would their response have been to the other questions?

So in some respects modern British Muslims are two generations off.
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Old 18th May 2022, 06:28 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A certain Mr T Paine would disagree with you.
Would he? I am doubtful. If he did, he would have been wrong.
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Old 18th May 2022, 06:41 AM   #226
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I honestly believe that one of the goals of very loose immigration rules, and rules being poorly enforced, and rules being easily ignored, is to increase the Democrat voting base in many possible swing states. Texas is one. Florida may be another.

Its why they want to give statehood to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Its not a secret. It would likely mean 4 new Democrat Senators.

Now, dilute and further reduce the white majority? Naa. I see no reason to believe that. There's no reason to achieve such a thing. It makes no difference.
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Old 18th May 2022, 06:41 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Would he? I am doubtful. If he did, he would have been wrong.
You honestly believe that the idea that all people are equal was invented by Christianity? And that those who don't agree with that contention are wrong?
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Old 18th May 2022, 06:56 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Hilarious. Aside from ignoring the Greek philosophical traditions of Cynicism and Stoicism which most emphatically did accept the so-called "equality of souls". (Althought what the hell is a "soul".)
Yes, early Christian ideas came out of older Greek ones that come from Bachus cults.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I should point out that this tradition of the "equality of souls", exists in both Judaism and Islam. Further the notion that some sort of equality exists among Humans also exists in the Confucian traditions of China and East Asia, to say nothing of Buddhism.
And yet, you then have other ideas that men have their place in the great chain of being. You have ideas that some are chosen by God to be saved, and others are not. Did medieval european society believe that all men were equal in an Earthly sense, I do not think that they did. The earliest I can think of those examples breaking free from the equality of the soul, though I'm sure there are earlier examples, is in the aftermath of the English Civil War. I didn't say that ideas regarding equality were unique to this particular thread of Western thought. It is not a universal concept though.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
It is interesting to note that in Hinduism the notion of the "equality of souls", does not exist, after all that is the philosophical basis of the caste system. Despite that India has adopted fairly successfully Western style Democracy etc. So this idea of "equality of souls" doesn't seem to be essential to Western Style Democracy etc.
Well, they were occupied by the British for quite a while. Does the average Indian believe "all men are created equal" in the American sense? It's quite a subversive doctrine. All societies are hierarchical to some degree and form an aristocratic class. The idea that we are all equal is a constant call to upend the hierarchy.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I should also point out that the doctrine of "equality of souls" and "all men are created equal" doesn't prevent the estblishment of systems of legal oppression and equality.
It is really helpful to have your system of government legitimised by the beliefs of the society. When they clash for any length of time, it is a sign that the ruling regime is on the way out.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
The Cynics and the Stoics despite their beliefs had no problem with slavery, serfdom or autocratic rule in general. They just thought of different justifications etc., for them.
Sure, equality of souls is not the same as Earthly equality. Plus, Greek society would have collapsed had they tried for Earthy equality and indeed did collapse at about the time that these ideas arrived on the scene.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Christianity, Islam and Judaism had no problems for centuries with slavery, serfdom etc., either. In fact in Chrstianity, Islam and Judaism th ideal form of government for century upon century was Autocratic Monarchy, which was felt to mirror the rule of God of the Universe, so of course was therefore ideal.
Yes. Liberal truths are not self evident.


Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Aside from pointing out that certain other groups within British society, (Evangelicals, Christian Fundamentalists), have similar ideas about female subordination, homosexuality etc., and the establishment of religious laws has laws of the state.
Yes. And?

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
In the US it is even more extreme, in the sheer number of Christian Fundamentalists who want the establishment of what amounts to a Theocracy and the establishment of "Biblical Law", which has large similarities to notions of Sharia Law domination. (It also appears that in some US states a majority of Republicans support the banning of inter-racial marriage also along with something like "Biblical Law".) (I could also mention groups within the US like the Amish and Hutterrites.)
Maybe. I don't know what the point of showing me this is other than to reinforce the idea that different cultural traditions can persist for long periods of time and be deeply and profoundly incompatible. That is my point.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
With that in perspective the "fact" that 23% of British Muslims want established Sharia Law and 39% want wives to always obey husbands doesn't worry me unduly. (It also means 77% of Brtish Muslims do not support the establishment of Sharia Law and 61% don't support the notion that wivesshould always obey their husbands.)
It doesn't really mean that. Most are ambivalent about it.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
In 1950 just how many in Britain would have wanted Homosexuality legal? Less than half I would say, and what would their response have been to the other questions?
Oh, certainly... these kinds of liberalisations are typically done against public sentiment. Is there a single path that all cultures go down? Muslims in Britain will see our society and embrace it? Maybe. That doesn't seem to have happened with evangelicals in the US.

Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
So in some respects modern British Muslims are two generations off.
Maybe. You seem to think that there is some inevitable direction that cultures move in. Yet evangelicals don't seem to have moved in that direction. Why would we think Muslims will move in that direction in a couple of generations when evangelicals haven't?
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Old 18th May 2022, 06:58 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
...Its why they want to give statehood to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Its not a secret. It would likely mean 4 new Democrat Senators.
Then can you explain the fact that former presidents Gerald Ford and George H.W. Bush both supported statehood for P.R., as well as the likes of Mitt Romney, Rick Scott, Marco Rubio, and Jeb Bush, all Republicans in good standing? And if it would be such a slam dunk for the Democrats, why hasn't it already happened, since it plays so well into their "agenda" and would pay off instantly (as opposed to waiting years while immigrants gain citizenship and start voting)?

As for the U.S.V.I., I was unaware that there was anything resembling a serious active initiative to grant them statehood, at least not within the past 30 years or so. Who, exactly, is pushing that idea these days?

(Kind of surprised you didn't mention D.C., although perhaps that would be harder to disguise as an "immigration" issue as opposed to plain ol' racism.)
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:02 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I honestly believe that one of the goals of very loose immigration rules, and rules being poorly enforced, and rules being easily ignored, is to increase the Democrat voting base in many possible swing states. Texas is one. Florida may be another.

Its why they want to give statehood to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Its not a secret. It would likely mean 4 new Democrat Senators.

Now, dilute and further reduce the white majority? Naa. I see no reason to believe that. There's no reason to achieve such a thing. It makes no difference.
"If we let brown people vote we'll never win elections!"

Yeah, we know.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:04 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
You honestly believe that the idea that all people are equal was invented by Christianity? And that those who don't agree with that contention are wrong?
The line of thought that runs through Paine comes from particular schools of thought and dogmas in Christianity. You see these ideas in radical protestants during the English Civil War period. There are then earlier forms of it going back further. Ideas of equality before the law and so on have a long tradition predating liberalism, the enlightenment and all the rest of it.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:07 AM   #232
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One of the biggest troll tactics in the last few years has acting like "fairness" isn't a concept that can exist outside of which side gets an advantage, leading to this kind of insane...

"Your side will win if the system if fair/not insane, my side will win if the system is unfair/insane, so ergo ipso facto you wanting a fair system is the exact same thing logically, morally, and legally as you just wanting your side to win."

... argument. That's why Republicans basically started arguing "If you don't let us suppress voters it's just an unfair advantage given to the Democrats" a while back.

If you can only win at chess by cheating at chess, demanding that you don't cheat at chess is not the same as not letting you win at chess, no matter how much spin you put on it.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:08 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If we let brown people vote we'll never win elections!"

Yeah, we know.

Well, when a party goes out of the way to kiss the rears of a group and promise them the world...and then also happens to want to increase the size of that demographic...well, you know, there just might be a link.

Last edited by Warp12; 18th May 2022 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:09 AM   #234
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"Democrats not being racist gives them an unfair advantage."
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:11 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Democrats not being racist gives them an unfair advantage."

I suspect there are just as many racist Democrats as Republicans... behind closed doors. But this is about votes, baby!
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:11 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, when a party goes out of the way to kiss the rears of a group and promise them the world...and then also happens to want to increase the size of that demographic...well, you know, there just might be a link.
If one makes extra vague claims and accusations it might just look like there is an actual point.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:13 AM   #237
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"Everyone is secretly just as horrible as me, they are just hiding it" must be a comforting fact for horrible people to believe.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:17 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Everyone is secretly just as horrible as me, they are just hiding it" must be a comforting fact for horrible people to believe.
That is probably as comforting as the "My group is morally superior to those with opposing political views" line of thinking.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:19 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
...Ideas of equality before the law and so on have a long tradition predating liberalism, the enlightenment and all the rest of it.
And predating Christianity by several centuries. So to credit Christianity with creating the concept of equality and justice is not only very incorrect, it's laughably ironic given the church's millennia-long history of intolerance of other viewpoints.
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Old 18th May 2022, 07:19 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That is probably as comforting as the "My group is morally superior to those with opposing political views" line of thinking.
"Your group feels morally superior because they are not as hateful as my group and I don't like that!!!!!"
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