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24th December 2022, 05:15 AM | #1 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Conspiracy theories about unconventional usage of notation
Gets more ludicrous every time you try, doesn't it! 0.35 feet? or 0.35 minutes of time? or 0.35 minutes of arc? or 0.35 of something else that exists only inside your head?
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24th December 2022, 05:39 AM | #2 |
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24th December 2022, 06:52 AM | #3 |
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24th December 2022, 06:56 AM | #4 |
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24th December 2022, 08:08 AM | #5 |
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24th December 2022, 08:26 AM | #6 |
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24th December 2022, 08:26 AM | #7 |
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24th December 2022, 08:28 AM | #8 |
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24th December 2022, 08:30 AM | #9 |
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24th December 2022, 08:30 AM | #10 |
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24th December 2022, 09:48 AM | #11 |
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I am aware that different posters went to different schools in different countries. People educated in England not all that long ago had £.s.d to contend with (I caught the tail end): 20 shillings to a pound, 12 pence to a shilling, 24d. to a florin, or four sixpences, and don't even mention a guinea...!
All of this base-12 and base-20 stuff, including when height and measurements were in inches, feet and yards, are all subsets of base-60, so there is really no problem in understanding there are 4 thrupences (3d) to a shilling (1/-) and eight half crowns (2/6 or 2s.6d.)to a pound (£1). Ten shillings is ten bob. Likewise, feet and inches are very simple. As are the hours, minutes and seconds of a clock (base-60) were 30' is half an hour and 15' quarter of an hour (I do normally write it as 30" and 15" as per schooldays but am happy to defer to the logic of the hour being the zero designation). The coordinates for M/S Estonia are (you are not going to like this): 59° 23′ 0″ N, 21° 41′ 0″ E*. Oh dear, does 23' and 41' refer to 23 feet, 41 feet, or 23 minutes (time), 41 minutes (time), or 23 minutes due North or 41 minutes due East? Is it time, length or location/direction? Context answers your question. *Perhaps you prefer the decimalised version: 59.383333, 21.683333. My sixpence says probably. |
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24th December 2022, 09:53 AM | #12 |
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The point is that your long irrelevant rant still doesn’t excuse your errors or make you competent. Whether you decimalize or use primes for units, you still can’t get simple figures right. And yet you want to lecture us all on ship physics and other technical subjects. You don’t know what you’re talking about, full stop.
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24th December 2022, 09:58 AM | #13 |
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24th December 2022, 10:08 AM | #14 |
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24th December 2022, 10:16 AM | #15 |
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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V
Those are all points you’ve raised previously, and on which you’ve expressed unremitting and arrogant ignorance. Was I not clear? You have demonstrated zero competence in any of the topics you’ve raised here, extreme disrespect for your betters, and a moral smugness that cements it all together. |
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24th December 2022, 10:45 AM | #16 |
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No, you're confusing a) the number base system with b) the notation marks used within that system. We.... do all know that time (at the level of minutes and seconds only) is in base 60. We also know that the overriding convention for the notation marks of minutes & seconds of time is m/min/mins for minutes and s for seconds. Virtually nobody uses single/double prime notation ('/'') for notating minutes and seconds of time. That notation system is solely and specifically used for notating degrees, minutes and seconds of latitude/longitude. In fact, it's even know as the "DMS notation system" (where DMS stands for "Degrees, Minutes, Seconds"). It's worth noting that single/double prime notation is also used for the imperial measurement of feet and inches, but of course feet are in base 3 (3 feet to the yard) and inches are in base 12 (12 inches to the foot), and are of a totally different provenance to the use of single/double prime notation for base 60 systems. You're utterly in the wrong when you attempt to use DMS notation for minutes (or, in your failed case, seconds...) of time. And I don't believe for one moment that it's what you were taught at school (though I suppose there's a chance you were taught it by an incompetent, mendacious or sly teacher), because I can guarantee from direct first-hand experience that it was never the notation taught in British schools. And you're double-wrong/mistaken/lying if you claim you were taught to use double prime for minutes of time. So please, please, just give it up. It doesn't look clever. Quite the opposite. Moreso when you get it embarrassingly wrong. Write "min" or "minutes" for minutes of time. That way, a) everyone will actually know what you mean, and b) you'll stand no chance of messing it up again. |
24th December 2022, 11:17 AM | #17 |
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24th December 2022, 11:29 AM | #18 |
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I am dreadfully sorry, I obviously wasn't clear. The point I was making was (a) to explain the rationale for those who claim to be puzzled and (b) to make it clear that I have no intention of 'dumbing down' as it were, even if it doesn't conform with the US ways of doing things (actually making things more complicated than necessary IMV). I am with that piece of music cited by zooterkin '4'33"'. This refers to the length of the piece as well as its title. I hope that it will NEVER become '4min 33 secs'. I am with Jacob Rees-Mogg in this. (I will not be using Oxford commas, either.)
So please can we now draw a line under this issue. |
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24th December 2022, 11:53 AM | #19 |
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24th December 2022, 12:20 PM | #20 |
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24th December 2022, 12:32 PM | #21 |
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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V
No, this isn’t a U.S. problem. We use the international standard for specifying durations of time. I work all the time with scientists and engineers from the U.K. and Europe. None of them uses primes for temporal minutes and seconds. We all use SI units.
Now if you want to argue that primes are still common in lay usage, or older, traditional usage, you can. But that’s not a difference in standards or education. That’s you being a lay person instead of a scientist if any kind — and even then you can’t get the values or units right. This is a “Vixen is wrong” problem, not a “The world is varied” problem. |
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24th December 2022, 03:22 PM | #22 |
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Exactly. I'm British. I had a science-skewed secondary education in a very good school, followed by a first degree and then a masters in electronic/comms engineering from a very good university. And I've worked in finance related to the telecoms/internet industry pretty much all my working life. And I have NEVER, EVER, IN MY ENTIRE HISTORY OF EDUCATION AND WORK, encountered anyone using prime notation for units of time. What's more, my education and experience has given me sufficient grounding in the scientific method to enable me to assimilate and assess most scientific evidence and carry out a decent level of scientific analysis. Further, I know what I don't know, and happily defer to those who have expertise/experience/knowledge that's over & above my own. In fact, I relish learning from such people. Oh, and I am also entirely ready to hold my hand up and apologise if I ever turn out to be wrong in any given piece of analysis/opinion. I find that these qualities are not only desirable in the quest for well-reasoned scientific debate - they're actually essential. And that's why I can be extremely highly confident that the Estonia sank because its poorly-designed, poorly-constructed and (very) poorly-maintained bow visor detached under heavy load in high seas in the midst of a storm, causing a huge influx of seawater into the open vehicle deck (with the bow taking in enormous "gulps" of water every time it dug into an oncoming wave) which in turn caused the ship to become terminally unstable and capsize in very short time. After that, the sinking was inevitable. No sabotage. No attempts to push vehicles over the side into the raging seas. No submarines. No torpedoes. |
24th December 2022, 03:52 PM | #23 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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24th December 2022, 04:20 PM | #24 |
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I said that in my entire history of education and work, I've never seen it used. And that is true. Of course I know of occasions when it has been used, but it's not used - to my knowledge and extensive experience - in anything related to science and engineering (including any analysis and debate which is founded on scientific principles). Your last sentence remains entirely salient, of course. |
24th December 2022, 04:23 PM | #25 |
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By the way, has anyone ever seen, written in any publication, a sentence such as "The train was running 20' late"?
Thought not. |
24th December 2022, 04:41 PM | #26 |
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24th December 2022, 04:43 PM | #27 |
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24th December 2022, 04:45 PM | #28 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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24th December 2022, 04:45 PM | #29 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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24th December 2022, 04:46 PM | #30 |
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24th December 2022, 05:12 PM | #31 |
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Quote:
ETA: Obviously, the sexagesimal system can be used for anything with a base-60, so not just an hour (= 60 minutes) but also a minute (= 60 seconds). |
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24th December 2022, 05:23 PM | #32 |
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24th December 2022, 05:38 PM | #33 |
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24th December 2022, 07:06 PM | #35 |
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Here we are on this thread like tangent/mistake by Vixen number .38e(carrot)' 48"to the 87nth degree. What that number is in base 10? I dunno somewhere between a whole frickin lot and infinity.
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24th December 2022, 07:51 PM | #36 |
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And none of this has anything to do with the MS Estonia, a ship never designed for open ocean transit, sailing into a storm at flank speed resulting in large waves knocking the bow visor loose, and then off. This resulted in the ship flooding, capsizing, and sinking.
That's what happened. That is what the evidence then and now shows happened. |
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24th December 2022, 09:55 PM | #37 |
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24th December 2022, 10:02 PM | #38 |
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25th December 2022, 03:07 AM | #39 |
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It can be 20 seconds. Think of it this way (hopefully, we'll get there in the end!)
Feet = ' Inches= " Minutes = ' Seconds = " OR, alternatively: Hours = ' Minutes = " As long as the context is clear I don't see the problem. We know M/S Estonia sank within 35". Hard to see how that can be seen as depth of water or seconds. Happy Christmas, All. Keep smiling! |
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25th December 2022, 03:50 AM | #40 |
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