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18th January 2023, 04:16 AM | #362 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Off-topic....and wrong to boot (German pun intended )
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You seem determined to break every irony-o-meter I buy, even the weapons-grade ones (stolen-Russian-military-equipment-aboard-passenger-ferry-nonsense pun intended )
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You know my words are preserved within this thread, right? With that in mind, I suggest you go back and read posts #21-#24 for a full in-context revision of what I wrote and what I meant by it. As usual, you're coming out of this argument ''-best. |
18th January 2023, 04:42 AM | #363 |
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This is a lie. In the main Estonia thread LondonJohn said :
"1. Don't you think it would have been intellectually honest to include the Herald of Free Enterprise in your list? After all, it too capsized (and would have entirely sunk if it had been in deeper water) because there was a gaping hole in its bow. Do you know how long - measured from the time of the first ingress of water through the bow - the HOFE took to capsize, Vixen? Shall I tell you? It was 90 seconds." |
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18th January 2023, 05:15 AM | #364 |
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18th January 2023, 05:40 AM | #365 |
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18th January 2023, 05:44 AM | #366 |
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18th January 2023, 06:59 AM | #367 |
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Your 'expert source' is full of ****.
The first single apostrophe in your sentence I quoted is not followed by a space when formatted by this forum's formatting system and displayed by my browser. The first single apostrophe in my sentence above is not followed by a space when formatted by this forum's formatting system and displayed by my browser. The first single apostrophes in all of the following quotations are not followed by a space when formatted by this forum's formatting system and displayed by my browser. Conclusion: Vixen's knowledge of how apostrophes are formatted is on par with Vixen's knowledge of their proper use. |
18th January 2023, 07:01 AM | #368 |
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18th January 2023, 07:52 AM | #369 |
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You ignored all the evidence that he is not an expert source. Do you understand that we can tell when you're lying?
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You can't help yourself. You just. Keep. Lying.
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Whether you're writing peer-reviewed papers or just sending messages in a medium that doesn't make it easy to type special symbols, or doesn't allow them—if you've done this before, you know to use only single quotes to compose multiple primes. After the first couple of times, it just becomes second nature. Your "expert" made a beginner's mistake. And of course you ignored the meat of the argument. You've been caught in a lie again, so you just dismiss the evidence of it with a single-sentence brush-off and pretend nothing happened. |
18th January 2023, 08:20 AM | #370 |
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Yes, that's what skeptics do. Naturally we can't stop unscrupulous, uninformed, self-serving people from acting dishonestly, but we can reveal their efforts for what they really are.
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You're not one of those people. You're not acting out of curiosity. You think you already know it all, or at least enough to judge the experts. You're trying to be the teacher, not the student. And you're no good in either role.
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18th January 2023, 08:42 AM | #371 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You've misrepresented literally everyone's story on this point.
In contrast, your story about how you came to know about it and use it is full of holes and changes willy-nilly as those holes are pointed out. Your story about how others use it the way you did is devoid of evidence, and now you've invented an "expert" to try to stand in place of that evidence. You're really not in a position to hold others accountable for dishonesty. ″ does not stand for minutes. ″ has never stood for minutes. You present no evidence that ″ can sometimes stand for minutes. Experts do not agree that "apostrophes" can be used in a way that ″ means minutes. This thread is about holding you accountable for your lies, not about whether you can spin the facts this way or that to show that you're still smarter than everyone else. |
18th January 2023, 10:32 AM | #372 |
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Indeed, in addition to publishing notation-intensive materials, I've also laid out, typographically designed, and published ordinary materials for commercial print jobs, going back to the early 1980s. I've used a wide variety of typesetting systems, from desktop software-based systems to professional high-volume print systems. My father-in-law runs the offset print shop for a small town in Montana. The claim, "most formatting system insist in adding a space after either a single apostrophe or a double one," is patent nonsense. I have yet to encounter a single "formatting system" that does this, much less "most" of them.
I wonder if she doesn't mean they add some space (pixels), rather than adding a space (the 0x20 character). That seems to be the only way to square her comment with the actual excerpts and screen shots she posted. Those don't have a space between the “”. There are ordinary spaces surrounding them; is the claim that those were somehow added automatically? This happens when you accept predictive text in some cases, but not for punctuation in my experience. Yes, proportionally-spaced fonts on any modern computing device will perform some amount of kerning. This means when you type ' and " together, as in '", you're very unlikely to get a result where the kerning between the ' and the " matches the space between the two marks in the ". This is precisely why we have always approximated ‴ by using three single-quotes, '''. It obviates the kerning problem entirely and very quickly becomes second nature when you write a lot of mathematics. Ironically the kerning for the actual typographical quotation-mark glyphs “ and ” tends to err on the side of scooting them even closer to the adjacent characters. In any case, even if take her statement as true, I can't see how this serves her argument. Regardless of whether some "formatting system" adds some space (kerning) or a space (smart text entry), it doesn't change the fact that putting ' and " together to approximate ‴ is something a mathematician or physicist knows not to attempt. And as usual we're hampered by trying to figure out what Vixen is trying to say through her gross ineptitude at applying proper or precise terminology. |
18th January 2023, 11:26 AM | #373 |
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It goes to show there is no one convention. Maybe Grammarly or Merriam-Webster can advise us all as to what we may or may not do in defining a capital city.
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So Erwinl and GlennB et al are simply WRONG about the Netherlands and Switzerland because Merriam-Webster says so. |
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18th January 2023, 11:29 AM | #374 |
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18th January 2023, 11:29 AM | #375 |
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18th January 2023, 11:38 AM | #376 |
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So when will you admit that you wrongly used the phrases "first derivative" and "second derivative" when describing the manner in which you think one can use primes notation to denote time units?
That's a straight-up error. In no way is that correct usage, and obviously we will not be accepting yet another excuse along the lines of it's being some marginally-acceptable vernacular where you come from. You're simply, unequivocally wrong. Admit it, and put your money where your above-quoted words are. Here's what I think happened. In your desperation to find some kind of way in which ′ can mean either hours or minutes and ″ can mean either minutes or seconds, you turned to other uses of the primes symbols—probably those listed in the Wikipedia article. That source correctly notes that we use the primes symbols to denote the successive derivatives of a function. But it doesn't prominently say that this is only for differential calculus, and that the phrases those symbols stand for in this context—first and second derivatives—are phrases and concepts that exist only in differential calculus. That brief statement comes under the heading Use in mathematics, statistics, and science, so why wouldn't you believe that usage and those phrases are generally applicable to science, including the symbols that stand for time units. Correctly saying 𝑓 ′(x) and 𝑓 ″(x) denote the first and second derivatives of 𝑓(x) in differential calculus gives no justification whatsoever for saying that in the expressions 42° 10′ 25″, 50′ 6-⅜″, or 4′ 33″, the values labeled with prime symbols are "derivatives" of anything else in those expressions, or of anything at all. The relationship between 𝑓(x) and 𝑓 ′(x) has absolutely nothing whatsoever in any way, shape, or form to do with the relationship between 42° and 10′. The word "derivative" does not apply. The special terms "first derivative" and "second derivative" (and so ordinally forth) cannot apply, because throughout the realm of everything mathematics touches those phrases are reserved for invoking differential calculus. |
18th January 2023, 11:44 AM | #377 |
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18th January 2023, 11:50 AM | #378 |
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18th January 2023, 11:53 AM | #379 |
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Nobody is calling you names. They're simply correctly describing your activity on this forum. Your behavior departs markedly from your stated motives.
You're not merely curious, you're attempting to teach others and judge the work of experts. That implies you have the appropriate skills and knowledge to do so, but you patently do not. That activity merits criticism. You are a conspiracy theorist. If that label offends you, too bad; it's accurate. Because you are a conspiracy theorist, you are being treated as conspiracy theorists are customarily treated among skeptics. If this offends you, too bad; it is the expected and appropriate procedure at this forum. |
18th January 2023, 11:54 AM | #380 |
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18th January 2023, 12:03 PM | #381 |
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No. You continue to ignore the evidence that you are not consulting with an expert. You continue to substitute the non-credible statements of this purported expert in lieu of the evidence that would prove your claim. No one is obliged to entertain your anonymous and clearly bogus hearsay.
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When using smart input devices that rewrite characters, we do not allow them to rewrite notation to be wrong. We are sometimes forgiving if the glyph is close enough, but if the glyph is rewritten to resemble a wrong symbol, that is not allowed. Again, correcting this has been second nature for a decade. This is especially important when the purpose of the message is to instruct the receiver in what the proper notation looks like, not to communicate a separate idea using the notation. Your purported expert did use WhatsApp, and committed two beginner's mistakes while using it to write mathematical notation. These are long-solved problems, and long-established conventions. It's not as if mathematicians, physicists, scientists, and engineers don't use WhatsApp and other messaging systems to communicate mathematically-notated things. We've always used every medium that is available, and we've always followed the conventions that we've evolved to cope with the limitations and frustrations of those media. You're posturing your advisor as someone who necessarily would have been part of that community, and therefore learned and practiced these conventions. There is no expert who confirmed your ″-for-minutes usage. Give it up. |
19th January 2023, 08:08 AM | #382 |
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Since this thread is about the proper use of notation, and since your "expert" seems willing to address the points I raise (i.e., to participate in this debate), I suggest you invite him to come here and post directly. I'm experienced in notation and its history. You're claiming he should be considered a similar expert. Therefore there's no point in letting an unqualified lay person like you stand between the experts hashing this out.
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19th January 2023, 08:50 AM | #383 |
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I would like to formally apologize to everyone in the thread except Vixen.
I was attempting to lob the softest of softballs her way with a little bit of the Socratic method: Make an easily disproved claim, call on her to disprove it, and then ask her to use the same method to address the claim that "0.35` is not a recognized method for writing 35 minutes." Little did I know that this would spawn yet another petty argument that goes absolutely nowhere in spite of the clear, inarguable, factual evidence. But that's on me. In hindsight, I should have realized the well-established precedent on how conversations with Vixen go. I apologize for my oversight, and I will try to do better in the future. |
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19th January 2023, 09:26 AM | #384 |
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19th January 2023, 09:36 AM | #385 |
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19th January 2023, 09:44 AM | #386 |
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19th January 2023, 10:05 AM | #387 |
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Correct, although Vixen probably will not name him in this line of questioning. She wants to maintain the impression that the claims she's borrowing from him are instead generally understood and accepted among experts, and not the assertions of an obvious crackpot. So she refrains from citing him as her source. I also suspect this is why she frames those borrowed claims with statements to the effect, "You know this already," or "Don't be obtuse." She's low-key blustering in order to defer having to defend these claims herself or qualify her source.
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19th January 2023, 10:59 AM | #388 |
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I asked you to provide a link to support this accusation: Please provide such a link. ETA: I strongly suspect that you can't, for the reason given by GlennB here. Can you demonstrate that GlennB was wrong in his assessment? |
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19th January 2023, 11:34 AM | #389 |
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19th January 2023, 01:29 PM | #390 |
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I have spent probably the better part of an hour reading this thread and I am still at a loss for why it belongs in this subforum.
I understand that this thread is a spinoff of a different, separate thread in which a conspiracy theory regarding the sinking of a ship was being discussed. But this is a separate thread, and a debate over what kind of notation for a quantity is "correct", or claims that a particular incorrect usage of notation in a post or quote was completely inadvertent vs. was caused by the poster's improper understanding of usage, are not conspiracy theories. I have not been able to find a single claim in this thread that could honestly be described as a "conspiracy theory", outside of references to a discussion that was happening in another thread. |
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19th January 2023, 03:17 PM | #391 |
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It is interesting that the moment she got to choose between:
1) a thread in which to plead on behalf of the poor victims and grieving families of the Estonia disaster she professes to care so much about, or, 2) a thread in which to insist pointlessly and unavailingly that she's never wrong about anything, she chose to post in the thread on the topic of greater value and importance to her, while leaving the less important topic to languish for nearly two weeks. |
20th January 2023, 02:13 AM | #392 |
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People keep saying you must be wrong when you try to gainsay experts with no competence of your own to do so.
The digressions you create don't shed any light as your lack of subject competence gives you no insight to pick a good analogy. So you pick bad ones and then quibble about them for page after page hoping people will forget what you were wrong about to begin with. |
20th January 2023, 05:49 AM | #393 | ||
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20th January 2023, 09:22 AM | #394 |
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20th January 2023, 09:26 AM | #395 |
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20th January 2023, 09:27 AM | #396 |
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It has occurred because I used the notation 35" for thirty-five minutes. A queue of people who claim never to have heard of it in respect of time are browbeating me into admitting I 'lied' about having always used this, that I should 'admit your error' and to apologise. I have been 'told off' by about half a dozen people.
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20th January 2023, 09:34 AM | #397 |
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That's a start, now for the second part. "Preferably in a formal context." What I mean is some textbook or other Verifiable reference showing it happened, as opposed to someone who might have carelessly misread what you had written. It would also be of slight interest if you ask them the following:
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20th January 2023, 09:38 AM | #398 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, you're being properly taken to task because you confused and amused everyone by assuming they all should have interpreted 35″ to mean "thirty-five minutes," including people who know the primes notation for time. That's because you used the notation incorrectly, but insist that you were correct to do so.
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Further, you tried to correct yourself when your error was pointed out. It was only when people asked you confirm you correction that you invented all these stories to cover your tracks.
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″ does not mean minutes of time. ″ never has meant minutes of time. ″ cannot mean minutes of time. You've provided no evidence for your claim that it can, and should have been understood by others to do so. |
20th January 2023, 09:45 AM | #399 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I'll do one better. This person seems willing enough to have a debate over the proper usage of primes symbols. He's being put forward as an expert. Vixen is no longer necessary to this part of the discussion. If this person is willing to provide expert testimony for the use of primes notation, they should come here and have it in person and be willing to answer questions themselves.
I'll up the ante. Vixen, tell your "expert" that a prominent American engineer and former university professor in engineering and science has directly challenged his claim that ′ can mean hours of time and ″ can mean minutes of time, and is therefore also directly challenging his competence. Tell them I am willing to provide evidence of their error directly to them and that I am waiting here to discuss it without an intermediary. If your "expert" refuses, tell them I am therefore also challenging their integrity. I will no longer deal with this "expert" through Vixen. |
20th January 2023, 09:50 AM | #400 |
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