|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
5th January 2023, 01:03 PM | #201 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
It is not truth until you provide evidence for it. It is not truth until you address the many ways presented to you to show that it cannot be true. The operative claim is not that you used that notation at school, formally or informally. Your claim is that contextually using ″ to indicate minutes of time (rather than seconds of anything or inches) should have been understood as a standard, conventional notation for minutes of time because others used it that way.
Quote:
Quote:
You expected that others would understand what you meant. You claim there is no circumstance under which you could have been fairly misunderstood. None of that is substantiated by your latest version of the story: that your quaint little school allowed you misuse a notation without academic consequence. You're not trying to fix anything. You're simply changing your story as needed to place it, as you believe, ever farther from the possibility of refutation. ″ does not mean minutes of time. ″ never has meant minutes of time. ″ cannot properly mean minutes of time. That is reality. If you used it that way, your usage was wrong. If you have evidence to challenge that, present it. If you expected that others would have understood your usage the way you intended it, you were wrong. |
5th January 2023, 02:50 PM | #202 |
Muse
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 651
|
Your paradoxical and illogical mannerisms are displayed yet again.
Yet, you then contradict that part of your sentence and list specific circumstances, which you immediately dismiss. I entered this thread with no prejudiced opinion, and under that circumstance, I honestly concur that I have never heard of such a confusion of symbols being seriously considered, let alone used, and read it, as it is written, to be 35 inches, presumably of water (being at sea, you know). Also, for the sake of accuracy, your lone claim for your own nonsense is actually about 0.003% of the total posters/members on this forum. Finally, are you going to admit that port and starboard apply within a ship's hull/structure? |
5th January 2023, 03:54 PM | #203 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,307
|
|
5th January 2023, 04:01 PM | #204 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Indeed. The trend I documented a page or two back shows that Vixen continues to narrow the visibility of using ″ to mean either minutes or seconds of time so that she can remove it farther and farther from criticism and review. As she now asserts that it was ever only used in her school, and there only ever informally, it becomes more difficult to refute. Evidence of its usage under those representations would indeed be difficult to come by, and therefore less reasonable to demand.
But it cuts both ways. The farther removed from the mainstream and the more vernacular she claims her usage is, the less she can expect anyone but her to have understood it. And I don't mean simply using primes to annotate time, but her specific vernacular of allowing ″ to mean either minutes or seconds depending on context. If that usage was so very limited, then no one has a prayer of figuring it out. And at that point it's proper to say the usage is just wrong. |
5th January 2023, 04:05 PM | #205 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
|
The accusation that Jay is a sexist is especially hilarious because Vixen has recently thrown a MASSIVE tantrum over someone else "assuming" that she is female.
|
5th January 2023, 04:09 PM | #206 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
Edit:Misposted
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
5th January 2023, 04:44 PM | #207 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
As the hull is technically that watertight part of a vessel that is designed to lie beneath the water level, I fail to see what this has to do with the issue of a vessel at a 45° list to starboard and at what point does it lose equilibrium to capsize.
Perhaps take your |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
5th January 2023, 04:45 PM | #208 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
5th January 2023, 04:47 PM | #209 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
|
Oh, yeah, I can definitely use " to mean minutes but you wouldn't know it because it came from a different school.
I can no longer tell whether all this twisting and turning to deny admitting having made an obvious error is some kind of game, in the manner of Monty Python's cheese shop sketch, or if it's a strange quirk of character where the possibility of error is too excruciating to confront. |
5th January 2023, 04:47 PM | #210 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
5th January 2023, 04:50 PM | #211 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
|
|
5th January 2023, 04:54 PM | #212 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
|
You indirectly accused him of being sexist by suggesting it as a possible reason he keeps telling you that you're wrong. The real reason of course is that you're wrong.
ETA: We've been down this road before Vixen and everyone pointed out the obvious and you still tried desperately to pretend you weren't doing what you were doing. If I said that maybe the reason you're disagreeing with Jay so vehemently is because you're a misandrist, would I be accusing you of misandry? |
5th January 2023, 05:20 PM | #213 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
You know as well as I do that if anybody else were to have mentioned Sutton Coldfield's postcode, or a ball hitting a goal post (instead of the bar), or the phrase 'an historical event' or some typographical issue such as a ° in a cut and paste copy coming out as " (and this some years ago?) there would not be the same pile of people piling on them demanding they apologise for 'being wrong'. It is hilarious that - OK so I wrote 'hit the bar' instead the goal post - I wasn't even wrong for anything to merit my needing to apologise to anybody.
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
5th January 2023, 05:25 PM | #214 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
I've told you many times upon what grounds I've criticized your claims regarding MS Estonia. You don't seem to want to hear the real reasons, so you're trying to invent new ones—in this case, personal reasons that make you seem more like a victim. Among those fanciful reasons, you insinuated my criticism might be motivated by sexist bias. Whether you're suspecting me or accusing me of sexism matters little. You're grasping at straws to avoid dealing with the merits of the arguments.
It's a further straw man to presume my reasons for opposing you in debate are preconceived. They are conclusions drawn on my observations of your behavior and methods. I've stated them as such numerous times. You may wish you consider that your debate troubles arise from your dishonesty and presumption, not because your critics somehow have it out for you. If you wish to determine whether the premises of my criticism are accurate, you can begin by getting the premises right in the first place and stop making up ones that suit your ego better. I've helpfully stated them for you many times. |
5th January 2023, 05:34 PM | #215 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
|
It's the fact that you keep getting everything wrong and double down on it though.
If you had said initially "oh yea, sorry my bad I misremembered proper time notation" or even "Huh, I guess I was taught wrong, no worries" no one would have "piled on" you. It's the fact that you always, always double down on your nonsense, insisting that everyone else is wrong and assigning them nefarious motives for arguing with you. If I said that Glasgow postcodes started GW and someone pointed out that no, they're just G, I'd say "huh, you're right" and nothing more would be said. If I insisted that no, I was right and that maybe the reason you're arguing is because you're a racist? then people would rightly point out that I'm doubling down on my error. The problems you are facing aren't because you got something wrong, it's because you stubbornly insist that no, you're right. |
5th January 2023, 05:47 PM | #216 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
I have zero problems admitting I am wrong when I am wrong or admitting mistakes. I of all people don't believe in believing - or pretending to believe - in something that is not true. If I say my mother-in-law had an issue with her postcode, who are you to determine that she never did?
It's a game to you but it is very irritating to be on the receiving end of it. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
5th January 2023, 05:50 PM | #217 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
|
5th January 2023, 06:28 PM | #218 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
|
So why don't you admit you were wrong about prime notation for time?
|
5th January 2023, 07:47 PM | #219 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes, then you are hardly going to be in a position to tell me I am wrong.
I expect you or someone else will now go to Grammerly via Google to let me know the 'correct' way to express time is to state hours, mins and secs. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
5th January 2023, 07:50 PM | #220 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
5th January 2023, 08:15 PM | #221 |
Muse
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 651
|
You fail to see trees when the forest interferes. You have also not answered my question. I have submitted it to the person who made a false claim regarding its usage, even in the most technical of terms (for which you have offered no authoritative support), and incidentally, also does not meet conventional standards of its definition. From - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hull
Quote:
Despite your childish attempts to deflect, even below the waterline, onboard a seafaring vessel, the port and starboard nomenclature is standard terminology. Do you finally admit that? |
5th January 2023, 08:31 PM | #222 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
|
|
5th January 2023, 11:44 PM | #223 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 4,754
|
What's the conspiracy though ?
|
5th January 2023, 11:47 PM | #224 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,307
|
|
6th January 2023, 01:30 AM | #225 | |||
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
Apropos of nothing
This came up on my feed last night
|
|||
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
||||
6th January 2023, 04:05 AM | #226 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,759
|
|
6th January 2023, 04:12 AM | #227 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
|
Hyperbolic exaggeration distracting from the actual point. Like others here I'm well aware of ' and " being used for minutes and seconds. It's actually fairly common in audio recording as a compact notation for track lengths, although less common than it once was.
The real point is that " is used for seconds. Never for minutes. Observe there are two strokes in the character and the word used is the ordinal number "second". It is not a coincidence that these are both references to the number 2. There's another colloquial use of number two, and we seem to be getting an awful lot of that rather than a simple recognition that you made a small mistake. But you appear determined to turn this molehill into the Andes rather than recognise you were wrong. |
6th January 2023, 05:34 AM | #228 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
As I advised you, the issue of the hull is a non sequitur and as such qualifies as a logical fallacy. Therefore, I see no reason to discuss the hull any further unless you can explain what it has to do with a vessel listing 45° to starboard and the point at which it will almost certainly capsize.
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
6th January 2023, 05:35 AM | #229 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
6th January 2023, 05:50 AM | #230 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all, rather than be thought ignorant.
Imagine if our old friend Claudius Ptolemy were to be resurrected and he joined the ISF. He'd be trolled [back] to death with his partes minutae primae first minute and his partes minutae secundae giving us "second minute," except his 'minutes' and 'seconds' were not to do with timekeeping but to do with circles and astronomy. However, the terminology stuck for minutes and seconds as we know them today along with his trigonometry. Whilst it is true that technically speaking ' and " correlate with minutes and seconds as we know them today, it is also true that they have been used for hours and minutes, and I would even say the latter was more informally common than the former, from my experience. I get that my experience is not everybody's experience. It has been interesting to note that the majority of people had no idea it was to do with a sexagesimal system so hopefully the topic will not all have been in vain. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
6th January 2023, 06:07 AM | #231 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
|
1) Everyone is well aware that primes have been used to notate time units. We also know that the use of primes for time is now considered arcane and is essentially never used in science or engineering. 2) it’s simply a 100% falsehood to claim that ‘ has ever been (correctly) used to notate hours and/or that “ has ever been (correctly) used to notate minutes. You’re either misremembering what you were taught, or you were taught incorrectly (rather unlikely) or you’re not telling the truth. To hammer in once again: if primes are ever used to notate time, the single prime ‘ ALWAYS notates minutes (and always has done, without exception), and the double prime “ ALWAYS notates seconds (and always has done, without exception). |
6th January 2023, 06:18 AM | #232 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
|
|
6th January 2023, 06:24 AM | #233 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
|
|
6th January 2023, 06:55 AM | #234 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
6th January 2023, 07:33 AM | #235 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
No, the problem is not other people. The problem is you. You spout all sorts of ignorant nonsense and then double-down on it when caught. Telling us you'll happily let yourself be corrected is a laugh. You behave immaturely when people try to correct you, and you rarely if ever think you might be wrong about something.
|
6th January 2023, 08:04 AM | #236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Because many of them did. But because you used the system wrong, no one could tell what you were doing. Don't confuse people trying to figure out what you're ignorantly doing with people not understanding how the world works.
Yes, some people were amused by what could have been interpreted as thirty-five inches. That's because that's pretty much the only modern use for ″. And yes, we can see you trying to say you're still somehow smarter than everyone else. That seems to be what it's all about for you.
Quote:
Further, you refuse to answer how this could possibly function as a standard under the rules you propose. You ignored examples of when context would fail to disambiguate the statement. You admitted that the feet-and-inches marks worked in absence of yards because the meaning of the marks never changes. Your claim cannot be true.
Quote:
Quote:
The whole point of using symbols to represent something is that the symbols have to be the experience of more than one person, and ideally the agreed-upon experience of all involved parties. Watching you flail around trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth isn't nearly as amusing as watching you undermine the whole notion of convention in order to keep from having to say, "Oops, sorry, I thought ″ meant minutes."
Quote:
And no, primes notation is not inexorably tied to sexagesimal divisions. The two are dissimilar concepts. |
6th January 2023, 08:21 AM | #237 |
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,267
|
Vixen, I challenge you to find any quote in this thread of someone specifically saying that they were unaware that prime notation could be used for time.
I certainly never said such a thing. To claim that others have stated such is either a lie, or reveals a lack of ability to read for understanding. What everyone HAS said is that your usage of it is non-standard. You claimed it was a standard that you were taught at school. When called out on that you reeled it back to say that it was a format you and others used in school and were never corrected on, even hinting that you were aware that it was non-standard but that your teachers seemed not to care. Unfortunately for you there are other people in this thread, myself included, who were taught the same syllabus as you, at about the same time as you, and in my case even in a school under the same educational authority as you. I trained as a science and maths teacher under that very same system in schools in the very same educational authority. Your usage of prime notation was NEVER standard. A good maths or science teacher would NEVER have let it go unremarked. |
__________________
"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
|
6th January 2023, 08:22 AM | #238 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Genuinely, especially when she describes an upper-crust, traditional school that I imagine would have been more of a stickler about getting such things right. Especially since my first encounter with the notation as a teenager was the blue-blooded wet-bobs recording their rowing times.
But the equivocation is also genuinely hilarious. "There can be no reasonable confusion over what I'm trying to say," versus "We did it that way at my school even though other schools may have done it differently." The more she tries to narrow the usage to her experience alone, the less she can expect anyone else to figure out what she was trying to say. She's trying to come up with a story no one can refute, not a story that actually tells the truth. She's aiming for doubt, hoping to be given the benefit of it. But the more vernacular the usage, the less it can be expected to convey the proper meaning to others. In other words, the more wrong it is. |
6th January 2023, 08:45 AM | #239 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
She appears to be conflating what people say they were taught with what people say they knew.
Quote:
And I agree with you that a science teacher or examiner would most certainly not have accepted such an arbitrary reuse of a standardized notation. As I mentioned, a big part of science in general is following standards for units and notation. I mentioned it's the first section of the materials for the engineer's professional licensing exam in the U.S. But more importantly, it's just the way trained scientists think. It's second nature to do it the one right way. For someone to say, "That was perfectly allowable at my school," is, for me, tantamount to revealing that one wasn't educated in the sciences. The proffered practice is so very antithetical to a foundational principle of all science. And because it's so difficult to imagine that a competent school allowed that, it's much easier to imagine that "We were allowed to do it that way at my school" is a desperate ploy to avoid the impression that Vixen simply doesn't know what she's talking about. |
6th January 2023, 01:45 PM | #240 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 38,373
|
|
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|