IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 5th January 2023, 01:03 PM   #201
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It doesn't change the truth of the matter of the convention of my Middlesex County Council schooling and how we notated time duration, albeit in full wording in formal reports.
It is not truth until you provide evidence for it. It is not truth until you address the many ways presented to you to show that it cannot be true. The operative claim is not that you used that notation at school, formally or informally. Your claim is that contextually using ″ to indicate minutes of time (rather than seconds of anything or inches) should have been understood as a standard, conventional notation for minutes of time because others used it that way.

Quote:
You cannot change the truth by repeating a refutation any number of times.
I will repeat the refutation as many times as it takes you to address it instead of sidestepping it. You cannot establish truth by ignoring the evidence that the proposition isn't, and cannot be, true.

Quote:
Your assertion doesn't negate the reality of my experience.
Your improbable belief is not reality.

You expected that others would understand what you meant. You claim there is no circumstance under which you could have been fairly misunderstood. None of that is substantiated by your latest version of the story: that your quaint little school allowed you misuse a notation without academic consequence.

You're not trying to fix anything. You're simply changing your story as needed to place it, as you believe, ever farther from the possibility of refutation.

″ does not mean minutes of time.
″ never has meant minutes of time.
″ cannot properly mean minutes of time.

That is reality. If you used it that way, your usage was wrong. If you have evidence to challenge that, present it. If you expected that others would have understood your usage the way you intended it, you were wrong.

Last edited by JayUtah; 5th January 2023 at 01:10 PM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 02:50 PM   #202
MBDK
Muse
 
MBDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 651
Your paradoxical and illogical mannerisms are displayed yet again.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
under no circumstance can it be interpreted as meaning that I was claiming the Estonia vessel sank in 35 inches of water

Yet, you then contradict that part of your sentence and list specific circumstances, which you immediately dismiss.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
just because 99% of posters here have never heard of " being used for duration of time (or so they claim). That is hardly something I have control over.

I entered this thread with no prejudiced opinion, and under that circumstance, I honestly concur that I have never heard of such a confusion of symbols being seriously considered, let alone used, and read it, as it is written, to be 35 inches, presumably of water (being at sea, you know). Also, for the sake of accuracy, your lone claim for your own nonsense is actually about 0.003% of the total posters/members on this forum.

Finally, are you going to admit that port and starboard apply within a ship's hull/structure?
MBDK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 03:54 PM   #203
JimOfAllTrades
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,307
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am sorry my writing 35" caused you great anger
Dear god that I don't believe in. You made a mistake. Own it, and do that for future mistakes, and you will move toward rehabilitating your reputation. And will take much less flak for any mistakes.

Last edited by JimOfAllTrades; 5th January 2023 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Typo, and minor addition.
JimOfAllTrades is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:01 PM   #204
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by MBDK View Post
Your paradoxical and illogical mannerisms are displayed yet again.
Indeed. The trend I documented a page or two back shows that Vixen continues to narrow the visibility of using ″ to mean either minutes or seconds of time so that she can remove it farther and farther from criticism and review. As she now asserts that it was ever only used in her school, and there only ever informally, it becomes more difficult to refute. Evidence of its usage under those representations would indeed be difficult to come by, and therefore less reasonable to demand.

But it cuts both ways. The farther removed from the mainstream and the more vernacular she claims her usage is, the less she can expect anyone but her to have understood it. And I don't mean simply using primes to annotate time, but her specific vernacular of allowing ″ to mean either minutes or seconds depending on context. If that usage was so very limited, then no one has a prayer of figuring it out. And at that point it's proper to say the usage is just wrong.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:05 PM   #205
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
The accusation that Jay is a sexist is especially hilarious because Vixen has recently thrown a MASSIVE tantrum over someone else "assuming" that she is female.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:09 PM   #206
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Edit:Misposted
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

Last edited by jimbob; 6th January 2023 at 01:30 AM.
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:44 PM   #207
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by MBDK View Post
Your paradoxical and illogical mannerisms are displayed yet again.





Yet, you then contradict that part of your sentence and list specific circumstances, which you immediately dismiss.





I entered this thread with no prejudiced opinion, and under that circumstance, I honestly concur that I have never heard of such a confusion of symbols being seriously considered, let alone used, and read it, as it is written, to be 35 inches, presumably of water (being at sea, you know). Also, for the sake of accuracy, your lone claim for your own nonsense is actually about 0.003% of the total posters/members on this forum.

Finally, are you going to admit that port and starboard apply within a ship's hull/structure?
As the hull is technically that watertight part of a vessel that is designed to lie beneath the water level, I fail to see what this has to do with the issue of a vessel at a 45° list to starboard and at what point does it lose equilibrium to capsize.

Perhaps take your sophistry question to the person who introduced the non-sequitur, or are we moving into the realms of 'all parts of the boat matter'?
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:45 PM   #208
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by JimOfAllTrades View Post
Dear god that I don't believe in. You made a mistake. Own it, and do that for future mistakes, and you will move toward rehabilitating your reputation. And will take much less flak for any mistakes.
It was not a mistake.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:47 PM   #209
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
Oh, yeah, I can definitely use " to mean minutes but you wouldn't know it because it came from a different school.

I can no longer tell whether all this twisting and turning to deny admitting having made an obvious error is some kind of game, in the manner of Monty Python's cheese shop sketch, or if it's a strange quirk of character where the possibility of error is too excruciating to confront.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:47 PM   #210
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
The accusation that Jay is a sexist is especially hilarious because Vixen has recently thrown a MASSIVE tantrum over someone else "assuming" that she is female.
I didn't say JayUtah was sexist. I was trying to tease out where he gets his preconceptions from and to reevaluate whether they are accurate.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:50 PM   #211
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was not a mistake.
It was wrong. Whether it was deliberately or accidentally wrong is open to question.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 04:54 PM   #212
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say JayUtah was sexist. I was trying to tease out where he gets his preconceptions from and to reevaluate whether they are accurate.
You indirectly accused him of being sexist by suggesting it as a possible reason he keeps telling you that you're wrong. The real reason of course is that you're wrong.

ETA: We've been down this road before Vixen and everyone pointed out the obvious and you still tried desperately to pretend you weren't doing what you were doing.

If I said that maybe the reason you're disagreeing with Jay so vehemently is because you're a misandrist, would I be accusing you of misandry?

Last edited by MarkCorrigan; 5th January 2023 at 04:56 PM.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 05:20 PM   #213
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
You indirectly accused him of being sexist by suggesting it as a possible reason he keeps telling you that you're wrong. The real reason of course is that you're wrong.

ETA: We've been down this road before Vixen and everyone pointed out the obvious and you still tried desperately to pretend you weren't doing what you were doing.

If I said that maybe the reason you're disagreeing with Jay so vehemently is because you're a misandrist, would I be accusing you of misandry?
You know as well as I do that if anybody else were to have mentioned Sutton Coldfield's postcode, or a ball hitting a goal post (instead of the bar), or the phrase 'an historical event' or some typographical issue such as a ° in a cut and paste copy coming out as " (and this some years ago?) there would not be the same pile of people piling on them demanding they apologise for 'being wrong'. It is hilarious that - OK so I wrote 'hit the bar' instead the goal post - I wasn't even wrong for anything to merit my needing to apologise to anybody.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 05:25 PM   #214
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say JayUtah was sexist. I was trying to tease out where he gets his preconceptions from and to reevaluate whether they are accurate.
I've told you many times upon what grounds I've criticized your claims regarding MS Estonia. You don't seem to want to hear the real reasons, so you're trying to invent new ones—in this case, personal reasons that make you seem more like a victim. Among those fanciful reasons, you insinuated my criticism might be motivated by sexist bias. Whether you're suspecting me or accusing me of sexism matters little. You're grasping at straws to avoid dealing with the merits of the arguments.

It's a further straw man to presume my reasons for opposing you in debate are preconceived. They are conclusions drawn on my observations of your behavior and methods. I've stated them as such numerous times. You may wish you consider that your debate troubles arise from your dishonesty and presumption, not because your critics somehow have it out for you.

If you wish to determine whether the premises of my criticism are accurate, you can begin by getting the premises right in the first place and stop making up ones that suit your ego better. I've helpfully stated them for you many times.

Last edited by JayUtah; 5th January 2023 at 05:35 PM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 05:34 PM   #215
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You know as well as I do that if anybody else were to have mentioned Sutton Coldfield's postcode, or a ball hitting a goal post (instead of the bar), or the phrase 'an historical event' or some typographical issue such as a ° in a cut and paste copy coming out as " (and this some years ago?) there would not be the same pile of people piling on them demanding they apologise for 'being wrong'. It is hilarious that - OK so I wrote 'hit the bar' instead the goal post - I wasn't even wrong for anything to merit my needing to apologise to anybody.
It's the fact that you keep getting everything wrong and double down on it though.

If you had said initially "oh yea, sorry my bad I misremembered proper time notation" or even "Huh, I guess I was taught wrong, no worries" no one would have "piled on" you. It's the fact that you always, always double down on your nonsense, insisting that everyone else is wrong and assigning them nefarious motives for arguing with you.

If I said that Glasgow postcodes started GW and someone pointed out that no, they're just G, I'd say "huh, you're right" and nothing more would be said. If I insisted that no, I was right and that maybe the reason you're arguing is because you're a racist? then people would rightly point out that I'm doubling down on my error.

The problems you are facing aren't because you got something wrong, it's because you stubbornly insist that no, you're right.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 05:47 PM   #216
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
It's the fact that you keep getting everything wrong and double down on it though.

If you had said initially "oh yea, sorry my bad I misremembered proper time notation" or even "Huh, I guess I was taught wrong, no worries" no one would have "piled on" you. It's the fact that you always, always double down on your nonsense, insisting that everyone else is wrong and assigning them nefarious motives for arguing with you.

If I said that Glasgow postcodes started GW and someone pointed out that no, they're just G, I'd say "huh, you're right" and nothing more would be said. If I insisted that no, I was right and that maybe the reason you're arguing is because you're a racist? then people would rightly point out that I'm doubling down on my error.

The problems you are facing aren't because you got something wrong, it's because you stubbornly insist that no, you're right.
I have zero problems admitting I am wrong when I am wrong or admitting mistakes. I of all people don't believe in believing - or pretending to believe - in something that is not true. If I say my mother-in-law had an issue with her postcode, who are you to determine that she never did?

It's a game to you but it is very irritating to be on the receiving end of it.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 05:50 PM   #217
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have zero problems admitting I am wrong when I am wrong or admitting mistakes.
That's a facile tautology. You rarely if ever believe you're wrong, or even that you can be wrong. That's the problem most of your debate opponents have with you.

Quote:
It's a game to you but it is very irritating to be on the receiving end of it.
Yet you keep coming back for more.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 06:28 PM   #218
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
So why don't you admit you were wrong about prime notation for time?
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 07:47 PM   #219
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
So why don't you admit you were wrong about prime notation for time?
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes, then you are hardly going to be in a position to tell me I am wrong.

I expect you or someone else will now go to Grammerly via Google to let me know the 'correct' way to express time is to state hours, mins and secs.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 07:50 PM   #220
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's a facile tautology. You rarely if ever believe you're wrong, or even that you can be wrong. That's the problem most of your debate opponents have with you.



Yet you keep coming back for more.
The problem with most of what you call my 'debate opponents' (excluding yourself, I have to admit) have is that they have trouble knowing the difference between their being ignorant of a thing and mistaking that ignorance as proof that the thing does not exist.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 08:15 PM   #221
MBDK
Muse
 
MBDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As the hull is technically that watertight part of a vessel that is designed to lie beneath the water level, I fail to see what this has to do with the issue of a vessel at a 45° list to starboard and at what point does it lose equilibrium to capsize.

Perhaps take your sophistry question to the person who introduced the non-sequitur, or are we moving into the realms of 'all parts of the boat matter'?

You fail to see trees when the forest interferes. You have also not answered my question. I have submitted it to the person who made a false claim regarding its usage, even in the most technical of terms (for which you have offered no authoritative support), and incidentally, also does not meet conventional standards of its definition.

From - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hull


Quote:
2 a : the frame or body of a ship or boat exclusive of masts, yards, sails, and rigging
b : the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (such as an airship or tank)

Despite your childish attempts to deflect, even below the waterline, onboard a seafaring vessel, the port and starboard nomenclature is standard terminology. Do you finally admit that?
MBDK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 08:31 PM   #222
MarkCorrigan
Penultimate Amazing
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,895
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes, then you are hardly going to be in a position to tell me I am wrong.

I expect you or someone else will now go to Grammerly via Google to let me know the 'correct' way to express time is to state hours, mins and secs.
I have heard of the prime notation of time. I am very much aware that " is not, and has never been, minutes. It's seconds.
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 11:44 PM   #223
Dr.Sid
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 4,754
What's the conspiracy though ?
Dr.Sid is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th January 2023, 11:47 PM   #224
JimOfAllTrades
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,307
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes, then you are hardly going to be in a position to tell me I am wrong.
I've seen the quote and double-quote occasionally used for time**, but never in any of the technical papers I've ever read. And I've never seen a double-quote used for minutes, only seconds.

** I didn't know it was called primes notation until this thread.
JimOfAllTrades is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 01:30 AM   #225
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Apropos of nothing

This came up on my feed last night

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 04:05 AM   #226
W.D.Clinger
Philosopher
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,759
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have zero problems admitting I am wrong when I am wrong or admitting mistakes.
It would be nice to see some evidence for that claim.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 04:12 AM   #227
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes...
Hyperbolic exaggeration distracting from the actual point. Like others here I'm well aware of ' and " being used for minutes and seconds. It's actually fairly common in audio recording as a compact notation for track lengths, although less common than it once was.

The real point is that " is used for seconds. Never for minutes. Observe there are two strokes in the character and the word used is the ordinal number "second". It is not a coincidence that these are both references to the number 2.

There's another colloquial use of number two, and we seem to be getting an awful lot of that rather than a simple recognition that you made a small mistake. But you appear determined to turn this molehill into the Andes rather than recognise you were wrong.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 05:34 AM   #228
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by MBDK View Post
You fail to see trees when the forest interferes. You have also not answered my question. I have submitted it to the person who made a false claim regarding its usage, even in the most technical of terms (for which you have offered no authoritative support), and incidentally, also does not meet conventional standards of its definition.

From - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hull





Despite your childish attempts to deflect, even below the waterline, onboard a seafaring vessel, the port and starboard nomenclature is standard terminology. Do you finally admit that?
As I advised you, the issue of the hull is a non sequitur and as such qualifies as a logical fallacy. Therefore, I see no reason to discuss the hull any further unless you can explain what it has to do with a vessel listing 45° to starboard and the point at which it will almost certainly capsize.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 05:35 AM   #229
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Apropos of nothing

This came up on my feed last night

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I love this video.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 05:50 AM   #230
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all, rather than be thought ignorant.

Imagine if our old friend Claudius Ptolemy were to be resurrected and he joined the ISF. He'd be trolled [back] to death with his partes minutae primae first minute and his partes minutae secundae giving us "second minute," except his 'minutes' and 'seconds' were not to do with timekeeping but to do with circles and astronomy. However, the terminology stuck for minutes and seconds as we know them today along with his trigonometry. Whilst it is true that technically speaking ' and " correlate with minutes and seconds as we know them today, it is also true that they have been used for hours and minutes, and I would even say the latter was more informally common than the former, from my experience. I get that my experience is not everybody's experience. It has been interesting to note that the majority of people had no idea it was to do with a sexagesimal system so hopefully the topic will not all have been in vain.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 06:07 AM   #231
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all, rather than be thought ignorant.

Imagine if our old friend Claudius Ptolemy were to be resurrected and he joined the ISF. He'd be trolled [back] to death with his partes minutae primae first minute and his partes minutae secundae giving us "second minute," except his 'minutes' and 'seconds' were not to do with timekeeping but to do with circles and astronomy. However, the terminology stuck for minutes and seconds as we know them today along with his trigonometry. Whilst it is true that technically speaking ' and " correlate with minutes and seconds as we know them today, it is also true that they have been used for hours and minutes, and I would even say the latter was more informally common than the former, from my experience. I get that my experience is not everybody's experience. It has been interesting to note that the majority of people had no idea it was to do with a sexagesimal system so hopefully the topic will not all have been in vain.

1) Everyone is well aware that primes have been used to notate time units. We also know that the use of primes for time is now considered arcane and is essentially never used in science or engineering.

2) it’s simply a 100% falsehood to claim that ‘ has ever been (correctly) used to notate hours and/or that “ has ever been (correctly) used to notate minutes. You’re either misremembering what you were taught, or you were taught incorrectly (rather unlikely) or you’re not telling the truth.

To hammer in once again: if primes are ever used to notate time, the single prime ‘ ALWAYS notates minutes (and always has done, without exception), and the double prime “ ALWAYS notates seconds (and always has done, without exception).
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 06:18 AM   #232
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all
That "99%" claimed not to know is simply one more of your assertions that you were wrong about.

Irony.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 06:24 AM   #233
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,392
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I get that my experience is not everybody's experience.
I note that you have failed to come up with a single supporting example of what you claim was a commonplace in your experience. The idea that we are simply unfamiliar with your wrong notation because it went to a different school is genuinely hilarious.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 06:55 AM   #234
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It can be 20 seconds. Think of it this way (hopefully, we'll get there in the end!)

Feet = '

Inches= "

Minutes = '

Seconds = "

OR, alternatively:

Hours = '

Minutes = "

As long as the context is clear I don't see the problem. We know M/S Estonia sank within 35". Hard to see how that can be seen as depth of water or seconds.

Happy Christmas, All. Keep smiling!
Apart from your unconventional usage of single quotes for hours,, have you any evidence of anyone else using it?

Obviously you use it.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 07:33 AM   #235
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The problem with most of what you call my 'debate opponents' (excluding yourself, I have to admit) have is that they have trouble knowing the difference between their being ignorant of a thing and mistaking that ignorance as proof that the thing does not exist.
No, the problem is not other people. The problem is you. You spout all sorts of ignorant nonsense and then double-down on it when caught. Telling us you'll happily let yourself be corrected is a laugh. You behave immaturely when people try to correct you, and you rarely if ever think you might be wrong about something.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 08:04 AM   #236
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all, rather than be thought ignorant.
Because many of them did. But because you used the system wrong, no one could tell what you were doing. Don't confuse people trying to figure out what you're ignorantly doing with people not understanding how the world works.

Yes, some people were amused by what could have been interpreted as thirty-five inches. That's because that's pretty much the only modern use for ″.

And yes, we can see you trying to say you're still somehow smarter than everyone else. That seems to be what it's all about for you.

Quote:
Whilst it is true that technically speaking ' and " correlate with minutes and seconds as we know them today, it is also true that they have been used for hours and minutes...
You claim this. You've been asked to show evidence that anyone else besides you has ever used it this way. You cannot produce any, so you don't get to say it's true.

Further, you refuse to answer how this could possibly function as a standard under the rules you propose. You ignored examples of when context would fail to disambiguate the statement. You admitted that the feet-and-inches marks worked in absence of yards because the meaning of the marks never changes. Your claim cannot be true.

Quote:
...and I would even say the latter was more informally common than the former, from my experience.
And we're back to you just making stuff up. You can't produce any evidence that it was ever used that way, much less that it was more common.

Quote:
I get that my experience is not everybody's experience.
You can't show that your claimed experience is anyone's experience. And the claim that it was informally acceptable at your school wasn't even your first story. At first you claimed using ″ only for seconds was some U.S. standard that was interloping upon your "correct" usage. You claimed it was a universal standard that couldn't be misinterpreted under any circumstances. The only reason you're now emphasizing "in my experience" is to make it harder for others to refute you.

The whole point of using symbols to represent something is that the symbols have to be the experience of more than one person, and ideally the agreed-upon experience of all involved parties. Watching you flail around trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth isn't nearly as amusing as watching you undermine the whole notion of convention in order to keep from having to say, "Oops, sorry, I thought ″ meant minutes."

Quote:
It has been interesting to note that the majority of people had no idea it was to do with a sexagesimal system so hopefully the topic will not all have been in vain.
Are you literally trying to claim that "the majority" of people didn't know there were 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in a degree or hour? Are you literally so vain as to believe you taught them that in this thread?

And no, primes notation is not inexorably tied to sexagesimal divisions. The two are dissimilar concepts.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 08:21 AM   #237
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
 
wollery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 11,267
Vixen, I challenge you to find any quote in this thread of someone specifically saying that they were unaware that prime notation could be used for time.

I certainly never said such a thing. To claim that others have stated such is either a lie, or reveals a lack of ability to read for understanding.

What everyone HAS said is that your usage of it is non-standard.

You claimed it was a standard that you were taught at school.
When called out on that you reeled it back to say that it was a format you and others used in school and were never corrected on, even hinting that you were aware that it was non-standard but that your teachers seemed not to care.

Unfortunately for you there are other people in this thread, myself included, who were taught the same syllabus as you, at about the same time as you, and in my case even in a school under the same educational authority as you. I trained as a science and maths teacher under that very same system in schools in the very same educational authority.

Your usage of prime notation was NEVER standard.

A good maths or science teacher would NEVER have let it go unremarked.
__________________
"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad

"Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin
wollery is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 08:22 AM   #238
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I note that you have failed to come up with a single supporting example of what you claim was a commonplace in your experience. The idea that we are simply unfamiliar with your wrong notation because it went to a different school is genuinely hilarious.
Genuinely, especially when she describes an upper-crust, traditional school that I imagine would have been more of a stickler about getting such things right. Especially since my first encounter with the notation as a teenager was the blue-blooded wet-bobs recording their rowing times.

But the equivocation is also genuinely hilarious. "There can be no reasonable confusion over what I'm trying to say," versus "We did it that way at my school even though other schools may have done it differently." The more she tries to narrow the usage to her experience alone, the less she can expect anyone else to figure out what she was trying to say. She's trying to come up with a story no one can refute, not a story that actually tells the truth. She's aiming for doubt, hoping to be given the benefit of it. But the more vernacular the usage, the less it can be expected to convey the proper meaning to others. In other words, the more wrong it is.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 08:45 AM   #239
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Vixen, I challenge you to find any quote in this thread of someone specifically saying that they were unaware that prime notation could be used for time.
She appears to be conflating what people say they were taught with what people say they knew.

Quote:
Your usage of prime notation was NEVER standard.

A good maths or science teacher would NEVER have let it go unremarked.
She even backpedaled on that. At first it was okay to use ″ for minutes of time as long as the examiner knew what you meant. Then it was only okay to use it in "notes" and such, but not in an assignment to be handed in. It's easy to believe you. Your story is consistent. She changes hers as it is refuted from day to day, trying to stay one step ahead of her critics.

And I agree with you that a science teacher or examiner would most certainly not have accepted such an arbitrary reuse of a standardized notation. As I mentioned, a big part of science in general is following standards for units and notation. I mentioned it's the first section of the materials for the engineer's professional licensing exam in the U.S. But more importantly, it's just the way trained scientists think. It's second nature to do it the one right way. For someone to say, "That was perfectly allowable at my school," is, for me, tantamount to revealing that one wasn't educated in the sciences. The proffered practice is so very antithetical to a foundational principle of all science.

And because it's so difficult to imagine that a competent school allowed that, it's much easier to imagine that "We were allowed to do it that way at my school" is a desperate ploy to avoid the impression that Vixen simply doesn't know what she's talking about.

Last edited by JayUtah; 6th January 2023 at 09:06 AM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2023, 01:45 PM   #240
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 38,373
Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Unfortunately for you there are other people in this thread, myself included, who were taught the same syllabus as you, at about the same time as you,

Vixen's education seems to have been a bit earlier than mine; Middlesex County Council was abolished in 1965.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.