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6th January 2023, 02:05 PM | #241 |
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6th January 2023, 06:27 PM | #242 |
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The issue of the hull in regards to the Estonia is NOT the issue, rather the thinly veiled masking you portray of your true character. The involves the basic concepts of cognition, and how they relate to your ability to make valid, unbiased conclusions. You have unequivocally made a mistake with your claim that port and starboard do not apply inside the hull. The context of that declaration is irrelevant to its absolute falsehood. You also allege to be quite opposed to making such falsehoods. Furthermore, you argue that you are reasonable enough to admit to any occasions when you do make such a mistake.
Yet, when your actual actions are considered, you have made a false contention, have done nothing but attempt to deflect from that fact, and have shown no indication of any willingness to admit that error. These are manifestations of an individual that is not only a liar, but deceptive, irrational, and ultimately of poor moral reliability. Now would be a good time to refrain from using smoke and mirrors, and focus on honesty and integrity. |
7th January 2023, 08:00 AM | #243 |
Illuminator
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I agree. It is more of a conspiracy. We all conspired against Vixen.
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7th January 2023, 10:17 AM | #244 |
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8th January 2023, 06:59 PM | #245 |
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Please get into context. I made a quip that port was on one side and starboard on the other 'and ne'er the twain shall meet'. Some wag came along and said they met in the middle and that they were joined by the hull. My questions to you:
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8th January 2023, 07:33 PM | #246 |
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8th January 2023, 10:08 PM | #247 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes. We've explained several times the value we place on intellectual honesty. If you don't share that value, you may be in the wrong place. It's our time to waste, and bandwidth is cheap.
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9th January 2023, 03:46 AM | #248 |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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9th January 2023, 03:56 AM | #249 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I never said it was formal but it is a recognised standard as it can be found in dictionaries of mathematics.
An ex- who has a maths PhD advises me of the following: "I may be able to help. Primes use apostrophes to represent different units such as ‘ and “ and ‘“ and “” (without spaces in between) used for hours, minutes, seconds and so on…" So the fact you personally never heard of it should not lead you to the logical fallacy that nobody has. |
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9th January 2023, 03:56 AM | #250 |
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9th January 2023, 04:02 AM | #251 |
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My first school was in Hampton, Mddx and then all the way up to grammar school. It did change to Greater London at some point but Middlesex still exists. (For those across the pond, the '-sex' refers to the old anglo-saxon '-saexe' and also refers to its short sheath sword c.o.a. [alas, nothing to do with transgender]). I did edit the MCC out but it seems Mojo wants to talk about postcodes.
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9th January 2023, 04:10 AM | #252 |
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Vixen,
Can you please provide any evidence of other people using prime notation to denote units of time as you did? I must admit that I wouldn't want to sit through your interpretation of probably the most famous example of prime notation, which is Cage's 4'33". |
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9th January 2023, 04:17 AM | #253 |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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9th January 2023, 04:22 AM | #254 |
Penultimate Amazing
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As I stated:
An ex- who has a maths PhD advises me of the following: "I may be able to help. Primes use apostrophes to represent different units such as ‘ and “ and ‘“ and “” (without spaces in between) used for hours, minutes, seconds and so on…" He is contemporaneous to myself (went to school in South Wales; London Physics & Philosophy, Masters Statistics & Maths PhD Warwick, PGCE Mathematics). |
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9th January 2023, 04:31 AM | #255 |
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Maybe
I should have qualified my request with, "beyond unevidenced anecdote" Also I'm struggling to think of a less relevant qualification than a doctorate in maths. And that includes not only engineering or scientific qualifications, but also English literature qualifications. |
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9th January 2023, 05:41 AM | #256 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Look. I will not debate semantics, sophistry and non sequitur logical fallacies with the poster concerned.
If I were to quip 'East is east and west is west, and ne'er the twain shall meet', should I be drawn into a five page discussion on whether or not they do actually meet at some point? No, I shall not. |
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9th January 2023, 05:57 AM | #257 |
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Oh FFS. Your continuing straw man misrepresentation of my posts is as tiresome as it is dishonest. Or are your fundamental comprehension “skills” really that atrocious? Go back and read what I actually wrote. You’ll see that I’ve constantly and consistently stated four things: 1. I know full well (and always have done) that prime notation can be used for time units. 2. I also know that in my entire extensive personal experience in the fields of science, engineering and finance, I have never encountered anyone actually using primes for time units* 3. My knowledge of (2) means that it was most notable and telling when you (attempted to ) use(d) primes for numbers in this thread - it immediately told me you had no proper grounding in the relevant subject fields. Presumably your (ham-fisted) attempt at primes for number units was intended to impress? It backfired horribly. 4. And this was amusingly confirmed by my knowledge of (1), because I know full well (and always have done) that if one did** choose to represent time units using primes, minutes of time are always (with zero exception) notated with the single prime ‘ and seconds of time are always (without exception) notated with the double prime ‘’ * Note the crucial difference between “I’ve never seen primes used for time notation in my entire working life” and “I am/was unaware that primes could even conceivably be used for time notation”. ** As I say though, nobody actually does use prime notation for time durations in scientific/engineering debate - which is precisely how/why your attempt to do so stuck out like a sore thumb. Even more so when you got it fundamentally wrong, and refused to admit your mistake |
9th January 2023, 06:00 AM | #258 |
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You appear to have snipped a portion of his message which is just sufficiently ambiguous that you can pretend he meant ' represented hours and " meant minutes.
You cannot find any supporting example because you're simply wrong. You are stubbornly defiant but reality disagrees with you. |
9th January 2023, 06:03 AM | #259 |
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Are you kidding?! 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence would be almost infinitely preferable to 4 minutes and 33 seconds of Vixen trying once again to claim that 35” could most definitely mean 35 minutes of time (provided that the, erm, context was clear….) ETA Ahhhh I see now what you meant! But I’d still hold that 4 hours and 33 minutes of silence would be vastly preferable to 4 hours and 33 minutes of Vixen trying to claim that 4’33” could easily mean 4 hours and 33 minutes |
9th January 2023, 06:13 AM | #260 |
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You’re so far out of your depth (pun intended). Stop continuously trying - incorrectly - to play the “logical fallacy” card. You clearly have little or no understanding of the matters being discussed in this thread, and (worse still) you appear to be pathologically unwilling and/or unable to even understand any error/misunderstanding on your part - let alone learn from it and move forward. |
9th January 2023, 07:24 AM | #261 |
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9th January 2023, 07:27 AM | #262 |
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Your strawiest man to date. He said your usage of ′ to represent either hours or minutes, and ″ to represent either minutes or seconds is contradicted by his experience, which is similar to yours. He's not saying he's never heard of primes notation to represent time.
Despite your ongoing attempts to suggest otherwise, you're not the smartest person in the room. |
9th January 2023, 07:32 AM | #263 |
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Any chance we could see the entire exchange? Because this seems to be an out of context snippet.
Note, he also (in this snippet) doesn't actually say that ' can be used for hours and " for minutes.
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I have used prime notation for many years in a professional scientific capacity.
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9th January 2023, 07:36 AM | #264 |
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You've provided no evidence of this. When confronted with countermanding evidence, you ignore it, straw-man it, or make up stuff.
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9th January 2023, 08:23 AM | #265 |
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The world seems to be full of people who desperately want to be seen as some kind of authority. These aren't the same as people who just want to be given credit for the knowledge can demonstrate, such as myself when speaking about such things as law. I've encountered many people who are self-taught in science and engineering, and they are impressively proficient even while lacking experience. But these people, if being honest, know and own their limits while retaining the respect and admiration of professional practitioners.
But then there are people whose desire for admiration crosses over into narcissism. They believe that what little and incorrect knowledge they possess is enough for all situations, and should prevail. And when they run out of that, they just make stuff up. In so doing, they create for themselves a world in which they are the hero. This fabrication works well enough in some situations that they normalize to just straight-up lying when it comes to what they know and how they know it. Or rather, straight-up lying about things that really are either true or false, and not just opinions or controversies. It fooled the afternoon coffee klatch, so why wouldn't it work everywhere? These are the people who turn to conspiracy theories in order to nourish the illusion that because they have found a means to criticize the mainstream, they're smarter than average. These are the people who will never admit error, because that's tantamount to admitting there exists a larger, more real world in which they may not be the hero, savior, or teacher. This is dangerous. Especially in the past few years we've seen how widespread and grave can be the effects of just a few lies told by people with delusions of grandeur and a stubborn resolve to stick to those delusions. Therefore I believe we skeptics have a duty to oppose this. The desire of people to opine, to debate, and to pretend to teach—but from a position of vanity instead of knowledge, curiosity, or genuine concern—does not justify publishing wanton falsehood and misinformation. Holding people properly accountable for the allegations of fact they make, and enforcing the expectation of intellectual honesty, is important whether the controversy is over ″ or the sinking of a passenger ferry. The question is not the consequence or scope of the lie, but whether we as a society will suffer liars as a matter of principle. No, we don't to stop people from having and debating opinions, from asking questions, or from questioning authority. We just want people to do it honestly. Advocates for honesty and integrity should be examples of it. |
9th January 2023, 10:01 AM | #266 |
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It seems pretty clear to me that the case at hand hinges on a distorted memory of being taught the potential ambiguity of time intervals written using a colon separator.
What's the runtime of this feature film? 2:15. What's the runtime of this cat video on YouTube? 2:15. Considering context, the former probably means 135 minutes, and the latter probably means 135 seconds. That's precisely the kind of flexibility/ambiguity and context-dependency Vixen is falsely claiming exists for prime-notated time intervals. It's just Mandela Effect, folks. 4'33" can only mean 273 seconds and so avoids the ambiguity. If it had been titled 4:33 that could mean 273 minutes. (Or possibly, the time of day when it was supposed to be performed.) That's probably why Cage chose the less common notation. |
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9th January 2023, 10:23 AM | #267 |
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Still a problem informally, but fixed formally in ISO 8601. You can use colon-separated time values in science and engineering, provided they conform to the standard. You just shouldn't, when you can be less ambiguous by using more straightforward and standardized notation. SI and EES have perfectly good units, labels, and symbols that remove all ambiguity.
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9th January 2023, 11:34 AM | #268 |
Penultimate Amazing
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To be fair, I'm seeing different glyphs for the symbols in the original quote depending on which computer I use. I'll assume what were rendered as backticks and backquotes on one computer were not intended. They show up as reverse primes on Safari on MacOS, but as single quotes (inverted commas) and straight quotations on Firefox. (And this is why we use proper primes symbols instead of "apostrophes.")
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9th January 2023, 12:33 PM | #269 |
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WRT Middlesex, it was abolished as an administrative country by the London Government Act 1963 with effect from the beginning of April 65, and it's magistracy was abolished in the Administration of Justice Act 1964.
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9th January 2023, 02:36 PM | #270 |
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9th January 2023, 03:05 PM | #271 |
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9th January 2023, 06:34 PM | #272 |
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9th January 2023, 09:15 PM | #273 |
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Let's start with the questions you posed.
First of all, that is an odd sentence, as it raises even more questions. Are you trying to say that I called it a tautology? Are you trying to say that the word admitting is what I call...well...admitting? Or is there some other intention that has not been clearly related? Those questions need no answer, as my next paragraph will render them moot, but I just wanted to point out the confusion your syntax provided. Regardless, my intent is to determine your capacity for honesty, comprehension, and logical discourse. My direct questions to you regarding port and starboard inside a hull were brought about by your own comments. Specifically: and And there were many others where you professed the ability to admit to mistakes you make, and THOSE proclamations are the very basis for the existence of this thread, because you continue to provide evidence to the contrary. In my case, you cannot even answer a direct question that you know shows an error on your part, and thus contradicts your "not given to dishonesty of any form" statement. You further compound that contradiction in another part of your last post to me, which will be discussed in just a little bit. Now, back to your recent questions. You appear to be wasting much more, by stubbornly refusing to acknowledge your obvious missteps. I am just trying to find a reason to continue to invest my own time and effort into this thread. If you are so far beyond reason that you will argue the facts of this post, I may consider further responses and/or investments in following this thread to be more of a circus sideshow than a skeptical discussion. Of course not. I save that ability for my good friends, and do it just for my own self-amusement. The fact that you refer to this as some sort of test of wills, just increases my concern for your well-being. Slander? No. Concern for your well-being? Yes. Now, for the compounding of the contradiction discussion I promised. You wrote: Actually, what you wrote is as follows (entire unedited comment by you, and a repost of a comment of yours above): The ONLY response (other than my questions) that spoke of the hull in regard to port and starboard since your post is this one: So, no one else mentioned the hull joining post and starboard. And it was YOU who wrote "port and starboard are separated by the hull" (which is definitively incorrect). Thus your comment stating otherwise ("Some wag came along and said they met in the middle and that they were joined by the hull") is a lie, and hence - the compounding contradiction I mentioned. Now perhaps, YOU meant to say "keel", rather than "hull", as that would be closer to reality, but still not completely correct. And FYI, claiming they don't meet is an A Priori Argument fallacy, as your claim (that only YOUR interpretation is of importance) can just as easily be discounted by the fact that common knowledge and rhetoric also use dividing lines as meeting junctions, such as state lines, walls/floors, etc. |
10th January 2023, 12:47 AM | #274 |
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10th January 2023, 02:09 PM | #275 |
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It depends on where one's research dove deeply. The primes notation is based on the notion that ′ is the first division, or cut. ″ is the second cut, the second division, or the cut-of-the-cut. ‴ is the third division, the cut-of-the-cut-of-the-cut, and so forth. But did you ever wonder why those symbols were chosen? It's because the forward primes were once symbols for arithmetic division in some notations. Before a horizontal bar, or ÷, or the solidus /, denominators of ratios were indicated by forward primes. That's why "divide this n ways successively" is represented still today(ish) by n repetitions of the forward prime.
Conversely the reverse primes ‵, ‶, ‷, etc. meant multiplication in the same ancient notation. This is alluded to in a footnote at Wikipedia, but it doesn't explain why. You have to realize that ′ and ‵are inverse operators in the early notational system that gave birth to using primes this way. That's why I was suspicious when our "mathematician" seemed to have reversed the symbols. Anyone who understands why we use primes notation today would understand that something like 64° 24‵ 14‶ is nonsensical. Reverse primes aren't simply substitutes for forward primes. They mean a different thing, the opposite of what's intended. I would expect that to be of more interest to a mathematics Ph.D. than to other experts. Happily I've discovered that the pattern we see in the alleged excerpt is how Microsoft Outlook rewrites the glyphs when you type the excerpted passage, in an attempt to be typographically clever. Likely just an error of convenience. And that's why, when we are forced to write in ASCII-ish character sets, we generally just repeat the single quote ' (0x27) even though single forward and reverse primes can be generated in ISO/IEC 8859. For example, to indicate the third derivative of a function, we would write Code:
f'''(x). |
10th January 2023, 02:29 PM | #276 | ||
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All interesting stuff (and entirely correct, naturally). If one works in a field where primes are in common usage, it would of course be professionally appropriate to observe the conventions precisely. I have to admit that on the rare occasions where primes impinge on my work - pretty much solely wrt geo coordinates when discussing network topographies - I reach for the “easy” keyboard symbols rather than look for the correct ASCII codes.
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10th January 2023, 03:49 PM | #277 |
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It's very tempting. ' and " are right there, begging to be used. But every field of science and engineering that I've practiced has been highly regulated. What might fly in an email or a chat post won't work in our actual recorded documentation. Luckily I have a staff of talented writers and editors who make sure our documents, drawings, and computation sheets are glyph-perfect for the regulators and auditors. But the consequence of working that way is realizing that the substitutions are actually the long way. If you are going to have to do it right anyway, do it right the first time. Slowly you just learn all the keyboard shortcuts or have your cut-and-paste cheat sheet handy. Thankfully not everyone suffers equally this way, so in many cases the substitutions are still easy and acceptable.
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I do a lot of science outreach and communication. A large part of my career has involved teaching the curious, so this is not about elitism. I would love for everyone to know everything about things they find interesting, regardless of diplomas or charters. Nor is this thread about little tick marks. This thread is about intellectual honesty where it counts the most. It's about knowing when you know what you're talking about, when you don't, and recognizing when your public comments are less about expanding human knowledge and wisdom and more about expanding one's own ego. |
10th January 2023, 06:09 PM | #278 |
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For what it's worth, I have learned a lot from this debacle.
I now understand (moreso than I did before, at least) why certain symbols were used historically (and why they were used to denote measurements of apparently unrelated things), and why they are no longer considered standard notation. Thank you. |
10th January 2023, 11:27 PM | #279 |
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Because people educated in Middlesex used the same notation for different units, making the system unusable? |
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13th January 2023, 12:18 AM | #280 |
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