Therapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God.

DOC · 1st January 2020, 12:16 AM

The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health.

From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair

"...I am often asked by parents, ‘How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or Heaven?’ My answer is always the same: ‘Lie.’ The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in Heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope,” said Komisar, who is Jewish...

https://www.christianpost.com/news/p...pist-says.html

Mojo · 1st January 2020, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health.

From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair

"...I am often asked by parents, ‘How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or Heaven?’ My answer is always the same: ‘Lie.’ The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in Heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope,” said Komisar, who is Jewish...

https://www.christianpost.com/news/p...pist-says.html

If you were an atheist, would you lie to us about God for the same reason?

catsmate · 1st January 2020, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

<snip>]

So what? God is still a myth.

Vixen · 1st January 2020, 07:01 AM

What a lot of nonsense.

Quote:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16 KJV

The prerequisite to everlasting life is belief.

bluesjnr · 1st January 2020, 07:07 AM

I don't see the harm in it, just like there's no harm in promoting the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy . If you bring your kids up as best you can and encourage enquiring minds, then they'll form their own conclusions pretty quickly.

RoboTimbo · 1st January 2020, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health.

Which gods should you tell your children to believe in?

Quote:

From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair

That explains it.

I would have said that if you're foolish enough to believe in gods, please don't lie to your children. Let them know you're a fool.

Christians prefer lies, atheists prefer truth.

8enotto · 1st January 2020, 07:50 AM

I found that faking like a believer at times and misleading therapist types nets greater results.

They really don't need to know how I believe as there is no reason to change.

Are there really weak atheists that go to a christian therapist for advice on raising thier kids?
Only from a site that exists to promote religious belief. I smell propaganda machines in the distance.

bruto · 1st January 2020, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

I don't see the harm in it, just like there's no harm in promoting the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy . If you bring your kids up as best you can and encourage enquiring minds, then they'll form their own conclusions pretty quickly.

True up to a point, but I know some kids whose conclusions thus formed would include that their parents were liars and that their advice was unreliable.

Kids are subjected to all sorts of lies and myths and confusing cultural customs at school and elsewhere. I figured with my kids that it would be nice if, in all that mess there was someone they could trust. You don't have to ram anything home, or squash beliefs they pick up, but if they ask I think they deserve honest answers. Seemed to work for mine anyway. THey all grew up and seem to be doing all right.

bluesjnr · 1st January 2020, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

True up to a point, but I know some kids whose conclusions thus formed would include that their parents were liars and that their advice was unreliable.

Kids are subjected to all sorts of lies and myths and confusing cultural customs at school and elsewhere. I figured with my kids that it would be nice if, in all that mess there was someone they could trust. You don't have to ram anything home, or squash beliefs they pick up, but if they ask I think they deserve honest answers. Seemed to work for mine anyway. THey all grew up and seem to be doing all right.

Also true. With mine, he was given both sides of the coin, mixed in with whatever he picked up at school and from various friends (and his Catholic mother).

He's doing OK as is his satanic cult.

(JK)

sackett · 1st January 2020, 08:08 AM

The rapist says you should lie to your kids sex.

DOC · 1st January 2020, 09:33 AM

Quote:
...From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair...

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

...That explains it...

Originally Posted by 8enotto

...Are there really weak atheists that go to a christian therapist for advice on raising thier kids?
Only from a site that exists to promote religious belief. I smell propaganda machines in the distance.

Actually it's irrelevant what type of magazine or website the article is in since the article is reporting on the beliefs of a Jewish licensed Psychoanalyst.

Wolrab · 1st January 2020, 09:38 AM

He's licensed by Jews?

RoboTimbo · 1st January 2020, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Quote:
...From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair...

Actually it's irrelevant what type of magazine or website the article is in since the article is reporting on the beliefs of a Jewish licensed Psychoanalyst.

Actually, it's very relevant. You didn't answer the question: Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

Darat · 1st January 2020, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Actually, it's very relevant. You didn't answer the question: Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

If he is Jewish one would assume the big Y guy not the J guy.

DOC · 1st January 2020, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Actually, it's very relevant. You didn't answer the question: Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh.

Darat · 1st January 2020, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh.

That is a non sequitur, if a person called "Jesus" existed that kicked of the entire Christian religion it does not mean that he was or is a god.

bluesjnr · 1st January 2020, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Actually, it's very relevant. You didn't answer the question: Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

Does it matter, it's a white lie at worst.

DOC · 1st January 2020, 11:04 AM

Quote: ...Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

Originally Posted by DOC

One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh.

Originally Posted by Darat

That is a non sequitur, if a person called "Jesus" existed that kicked of the entire Christian religion it does not mean that he was or is a god.

But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God, so even though the parents might believe they were lying, there is some evidence that what they said was truthful if they were talking about the Christian God. The parents and many others believe they don't have proof he is God but there is some evidence he is God. I've talked about that evidence in several threads.

Mojo · 1st January 2020, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God...

Such as?

RecoveringYuppy · 1st January 2020, 11:19 AM

What other things do you recommend lying about DOC?

ynot · 1st January 2020, 11:54 AM

I question the quality of the mental health of anyone that claims lies promote better mental health.

The rapist says if you're not a rapist you should lie to your kids about consensual sex (to promote the interests of the rapist).

sackett · 1st January 2020, 12:10 PM

DOC ole boy, you were comprehensively refuted here years ago. There's just as much evidence for Odin's godhead as for Jesus's. Or for Krshna -- who brings a mighty train of poetry with him, something you can't say for your dazed chrrrristanism.

And you learned nothing from the long trouncing your arguments got. I suspect that you've even grown more stubbornly ignorant during the time you've been gone. How would you convince me otherwise?

Edited by Agatha:

Edited to remove incivility

bruto · 1st January 2020, 12:32 PM

Of course people (including children) vary a lot, but I would contend that if parents intend to lie they are lying even if by some odd chance their lies turn out to come true.

I think if we aren't sure, we should say we're not sure. We don't need to volunteer embarrassing information, and don't need to get all hung up on categorical imperatives, but I think we should at least try to tell the truth.

ynot · 1st January 2020, 12:32 PM

The OP is essentially saying “Lying works so well for us theists we think atheists should lie as well”.

Why is it always “Grandma is in heaven” and it’s never “Odds are Grandma is in hell”?

Steve · 1st January 2020, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

I don't see the harm in it, just like there's no harm in promoting the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy . If you bring your kids up as best you can and encourage enquiring minds, then they'll form their own conclusions pretty quickly.

No one has ever grown up to persecute and even kill people because those people do not believe in Santa Claus. The belief in gods has had entirely different results.

RoboTimbo · 1st January 2020, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying

What an inane thing to say. Atheists don't believe any gods exist so they would definitely be lying if they spoke of any of the Christian gods existing.

Quote:

since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed

Oh, you mean that you believe that a generic, non-divine Jesus existed. That certainly isn't any sort of god.

Quote:

and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh.

Why are we talking about which non-existent gods Christians believe in? Let's talk about all of the non-existent gods that you want atheists to lie about, not just yours.

RoboTimbo · 1st January 2020, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Quote: ...Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God, so even though the parents might believe they were lying, there is some evidence that what they said was truthful if they were talking about the Christian God.

There is historical evidence for every invented god. I don't want to limit the discussion to just your non-existent one. So your opinion is that atheists and theists should lie about the existence of gods?

Quote:

The parents and many others believe they don't have proof he is God but there is some evidence he is God. I've talked about that evidence in several threads.

All of your claims of evidence have proven to be hollow. Hundreds of people have discussed that in several threads.

Roger Ramjets · 1st January 2020, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

If you were an atheist, would you lie to us about God for the same reason?

I can't speak for DOC, but I lie about God all the time.

You see, I know God well - and He's nothing like people think. He's actually a bit of a prick - and a moron. He also lies constantly, and didn't do half of what he says. Oh sure He created the Universe, but that was just an accident. Since then he hasn't done squat. He doesn't have any supernatural powers either. Isn't omniscient, can't answer prayers, can't even make a good burrito, let alone one that's too hot to eat. As for giving believers everlasting life - well what do you think? That's right, just another lie.

But I can't tell people that. Imagine what it would do to their mental health!

DOC · 1st January 2020, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

...but as least there is some historical evidence that he was God.

Originally Posted by Mojo

Such as?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265

Gord_in_Toronto · 1st January 2020, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265

Not convincing then. Not convincing now.

RoboTimbo · 1st January 2020, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265

Oh my! Your arguments in that thread were absolutely shredded!

So which gods should we lie about the existence of? You've only mentioned one of the Christian gods, is that the only one whose existence you think needs to be lied about?

DOC · 1st January 2020, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Oh my! Your arguments in that thread were absolutely shredded!...

Argument by Assertion. Let the posts stand for themselves without offering up a wide sweeping opinion.

RoboTimbo · 1st January 2020, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Argument by Assertion. Let the posts stand for themselves without offering up a wide sweeping opinion.

Actually, I'll do as I please. However, I note that you gave a sweeping opinion about your posts providing evidence when they don't. Beware the beam in your eye.

Which gods' existence are we supposed to lie to our children about? Do you think the Christian gods are the only ones that need to be lied about?

DOC · 1st January 2020, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

...Which gods' existence are we supposed to lie to our children about? Do you think the Christian gods are the only ones that need to be lied about?

Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.

8enotto · 1st January 2020, 11:49 PM

Mythology a million times rewritten to new ideals isn't history or evidence.

It is only mythology. Much of it based in historical events like maybe a flood or earthquake but the explanation is all wrong.

You cannot stop religious membership dwindling with lies and mythology repeated many times.

Steve · 1st January 2020, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.

Evidence for existence of any god you could name is exactly the same - zero. Christian god included.

bluesjnr · 1st January 2020, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

No one has ever grown up to persecute and even kill people because those people do not believe in Santa Claus. The belief in gods has had entirely different results.

A fact not disputed by anything I wrote.

Dave Rogers · 2nd January 2020, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

True up to a point, but I know some kids whose conclusions thus formed would include that their parents were liars and that their advice was unreliable.

Not, in itself, necessarily bad advice. I've always told my kids, "Never believe anything your mother says," and she's always told them never to listen to their father. Possibly as a result, now they're grown up they show every sign of thinking for themselves.

Dave

Mojo · 2nd January 2020, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265

Porpoise of Life · 2nd January 2020, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God.

Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.

That line of 'argumentation' only makes sense if you already believe in the Christian God and want to promote the Christian faith. So it does not apply to atheist.

Could you stick to the topic of your own thread and explain why it's better for children's mental health (rather than for their immortal souls) to be lied to by their parents?

1st January 2020, 12:16 AM	#1
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Therapist says if you're an atheist you should lie to your kids about God. The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health. From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair "...I am often asked by parents, ‘How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or Heaven?’ My answer is always the same: ‘Lie.’ The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in Heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope,” said Komisar, who is Jewish... https://www.christianpost.com/news/p...pist-says.html
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

1st January 2020, 05:43 AM	#2
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,777	Originally Posted by DOC The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health. From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair "...I am often asked by parents, ‘How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or Heaven?’ My answer is always the same: ‘Lie.’ The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in Heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope,” said Komisar, who is Jewish... https://www.christianpost.com/news/p...pist-says.html If you were an atheist, would you lie to us about God for the same reason?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

1st January 2020, 05:51 AM	#3
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,879	Originally Posted by DOC <snip>] So what? God is still a myth.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

1st January 2020, 07:01 AM	#4
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,885	What a lot of nonsense. Quote: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 KJV The prerequisite to everlasting life is belief.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! Last edited by Vixen; 1st January 2020 at 07:14 AM.

1st January 2020, 07:07 AM	#5
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 8,477	I don't see the harm in it, just like there's no harm in promoting the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy . If you bring your kids up as best you can and encourage enquiring minds, then they'll form their own conclusions pretty quickly.
	__________________

1st January 2020, 07:43 AM	#6
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC The therapist in the below cited article believes that if you don't believe in God or heaven you should lie to your kids (about God) to promote better mental health. Which gods should you tell your children to believe in? Quote: From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair That explains it. I would have said that if you're foolish enough to believe in gods, please don't lie to your children. Let them know you're a fool. Christians prefer lies, atheists prefer truth.

1st January 2020, 07:50 AM	#7
8enotto Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 1,866	I found that faking like a believer at times and misleading therapist types nets greater results. They really don't need to know how I believe as there is no reason to change. Are there really weak atheists that go to a christian therapist for advice on raising thier kids? Only from a site that exists to promote religious belief. I smell propaganda machines in the distance.
	Last edited by 8enotto; 1st January 2020 at 07:55 AM.

1st January 2020, 08:00 AM	#8
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 27,771	Originally Posted by bluesjnr I don't see the harm in it, just like there's no harm in promoting the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy . If you bring your kids up as best you can and encourage enquiring minds, then they'll form their own conclusions pretty quickly. True up to a point, but I know some kids whose conclusions thus formed would include that their parents were liars and that their advice was unreliable. Kids are subjected to all sorts of lies and myths and confusing cultural customs at school and elsewhere. I figured with my kids that it would be nice if, in all that mess there was someone they could trust. You don't have to ram anything home, or squash beliefs they pick up, but if they ask I think they deserve honest answers. Seemed to work for mine anyway. THey all grew up and seem to be doing all right.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

1st January 2020, 08:04 AM	#9
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 8,477	Originally Posted by bruto True up to a point, but I know some kids whose conclusions thus formed would include that their parents were liars and that their advice was unreliable. Kids are subjected to all sorts of lies and myths and confusing cultural customs at school and elsewhere. I figured with my kids that it would be nice if, in all that mess there was someone they could trust. You don't have to ram anything home, or squash beliefs they pick up, but if they ask I think they deserve honest answers. Seemed to work for mine anyway. THey all grew up and seem to be doing all right. Also true. With mine, he was given both sides of the coin, mixed in with whatever he picked up at school and from various friends (and his Catholic mother). He's doing OK as is his satanic cult. (JK)
	__________________

1st January 2020, 08:08 AM	#10
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,384	The rapist says you should lie to your kids sex.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

1st January 2020, 09:33 AM	#11
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Quote: ...From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair... Originally Posted by RoboTimbo ...That explains it... Originally Posted by 8enotto ...Are there really weak atheists that go to a christian therapist for advice on raising thier kids? Only from a site that exists to promote religious belief. I smell propaganda machines in the distance. Actually it's irrelevant what type of magazine or website the article is in since the article is reporting on the beliefs of a Jewish licensed Psychoanalyst.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

1st January 2020, 09:38 AM	#12
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,758	He's licensed by Jews?
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,758	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

1st January 2020, 09:39 AM	#13
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC Quote: ...From an article in the Christian Post by Leonardo Blair... Actually it's irrelevant what type of magazine or website the article is in since the article is reporting on the beliefs of a Jewish licensed Psychoanalyst. Actually, it's very relevant. You didn't answer the question: Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children?

1st January 2020, 09:42 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,092	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Actually, it's very relevant. You didn't answer the question: Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children? If he is Jewish one would assume the big Y guy not the J guy.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

1st January 2020, 10:14 AM	#15
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Actually, it's very relevant. You didn't answer the question: Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children? One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

1st January 2020, 10:16 AM	#16
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,092	Originally Posted by DOC One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh. That is a non sequitur, if a person called "Jesus" existed that kicked of the entire Christian religion it does not mean that he was or is a god.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

1st January 2020, 11:04 AM	#18
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Quote: ...Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children? Originally Posted by DOC One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh. Originally Posted by Darat That is a non sequitur, if a person called "Jesus" existed that kicked of the entire Christian religion it does not mean that he was or is a god. But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God, so even though the parents might believe they were lying, there is some evidence that what they said was truthful if they were talking about the Christian God. The parents and many others believe they don't have proof he is God but there is some evidence he is God. I've talked about that evidence in several threads.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 1st January 2020 at 11:05 AM.

1st January 2020, 11:13 AM	#19
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,777	Originally Posted by DOC But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God... Such as?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

1st January 2020, 11:19 AM	#20
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,777	What other things do you recommend lying about DOC?

1st January 2020, 11:54 AM	#21
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,903	I question the quality of the mental health of anyone that claims lies promote better mental health. The rapist says if you're not a rapist you should lie to your kids about consensual sex (to promote the interests of the rapist).
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,903	__________________ Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. Last edited by ynot; 1st January 2020 at 12:01 PM.

1st January 2020, 12:32 PM	#23
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 27,771	Of course people (including children) vary a lot, but I would contend that if parents intend to lie they are lying even if by some odd chance their lies turn out to come true. I think if we aren't sure, we should say we're not sure. We don't need to volunteer embarrassing information, and don't need to get all hung up on categorical imperatives, but I think we should at least try to tell the truth.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

1st January 2020, 12:36 PM	#25
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,423	Originally Posted by bluesjnr I don't see the harm in it, just like there's no harm in promoting the existence of Santa or the Tooth Fairy . If you bring your kids up as best you can and encourage enquiring minds, then they'll form their own conclusions pretty quickly. No one has ever grown up to persecute and even kill people because those people do not believe in Santa Claus. The belief in gods has had entirely different results.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

1st January 2020, 03:04 PM	#26
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC One could argue if the parents spoke of a Christian God they wouldn't be lying What an inane thing to say. Atheists don't believe any gods exist so they would definitely be lying if they spoke of any of the Christian gods existing. Quote: since Bart Ehrman said Jesus certainly existed Oh, you mean that you believe that a generic, non-divine Jesus existed. That certainly isn't any sort of god. Quote: and Christians believe Christ is part of the Godhead (Trinity) or as some say God in the flesh. Why are we talking about which non-existent gods Christians believe in? Let's talk about all of the non-existent gods that you want atheists to lie about, not just yours.

1st January 2020, 03:07 PM	#27
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC Quote: ...Which gods should atheists lie about the existence of to their children? But at least there is some historical evidence that he was God, so even though the parents might believe they were lying, there is some evidence that what they said was truthful if they were talking about the Christian God. There is historical evidence for every invented god. I don't want to limit the discussion to just your non-existent one. So your opinion is that atheists and theists should lie about the existence of gods? Quote: The parents and many others believe they don't have proof he is God but there is some evidence he is God. I've talked about that evidence in several threads. All of your claims of evidence have proven to be hollow. Hundreds of people have discussed that in several threads.

1st January 2020, 04:38 PM	#28
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,342	Originally Posted by Mojo If you were an atheist, would you lie to us about God for the same reason? I can't speak for DOC, but I lie about God all the time. You see, I know God well - and He's nothing like people think. He's actually a bit of a prick - and a moron. He also lies constantly, and didn't do half of what he says. Oh sure He created the Universe, but that was just an accident. Since then he hasn't done squat. He doesn't have any supernatural powers either. Isn't omniscient, can't answer prayers, can't even make a good burrito, let alone one that's too hot to eat. As for giving believers everlasting life - well what do you think? That's right, just another lie. But I can't tell people that. Imagine what it would do to their mental health!
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

1st January 2020, 06:07 PM	#29
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by DOC ...but as least there is some historical evidence that he was God. Originally Posted by Mojo Such as? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959

1st January 2020, 06:49 PM	#30
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,439	Originally Posted by DOC http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265 Not convincing then. Not convincing now.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

1st January 2020, 07:01 PM	#31
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265 Oh my! Your arguments in that thread were absolutely shredded! So which gods should we lie about the existence of? You've only mentioned one of the Christian gods, is that the only one whose existence you think needs to be lied about?
	Last edited by RoboTimbo; 1st January 2020 at 07:05 PM.

1st January 2020, 07:37 PM	#32
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by DOC http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...65#post9829265 Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Oh my! Your arguments in that thread were absolutely shredded!... Argument by Assertion. Let the posts stand for themselves without offering up a wide sweeping opinion.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 1st January 2020 at 07:39 PM.

1st January 2020, 07:58 PM	#33
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 30,587	Originally Posted by DOC Argument by Assertion. Let the posts stand for themselves without offering up a wide sweeping opinion. Actually, I'll do as I please. However, I note that you gave a sweeping opinion about your posts providing evidence when they don't. Beware the beam in your eye. Which gods' existence are we supposed to lie to our children about? Do you think the Christian gods are the only ones that need to be lied about?

1st January 2020, 10:25 PM	#34
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo ...Which gods' existence are we supposed to lie to our children about? Do you think the Christian gods are the only ones that need to be lied about? Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God. Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it.
DOC Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,959	Last edited by DOC; 1st January 2020 at 10:26 PM.

1st January 2020, 11:49 PM	#35
8enotto Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 1,866	Mythology a million times rewritten to new ideals isn't history or evidence. It is only mythology. Much of it based in historical events like maybe a flood or earthquake but the explanation is all wrong. You cannot stop religious membership dwindling with lies and mythology repeated many times.

1st January 2020, 11:51 PM	#36
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,423	Originally Posted by DOC Well if you are an atheist and you think you'd be lying to your child if you chose any God it seems it would be better to at least choose the God (like the Christian God) that has some historical and other evidence to apply to it. Then as the child got older, they would at least have some historical and other evidence to back up their belief if they did indeed choose to disagree with you and believe in God. Of course if you don't want your child to believe in God as an adult it would be better to promote a God that doesn't have much evidence to support the belief in it. Evidence for existence of any god you could name is exactly the same - zero. Christian god included.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

1st January 2020, 11:57 PM	#37
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 8,477	Originally Posted by Steve No one has ever grown up to persecute and even kill people because those people do not believe in Santa Claus. The belief in gods has had entirely different results. A fact not disputed by anything I wrote.
	__________________

2nd January 2020, 02:43 AM	#38
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,368	Originally Posted by bruto True up to a point, but I know some kids whose conclusions thus formed would include that their parents were liars and that their advice was unreliable. Not, in itself, necessarily bad advice. I've always told my kids, "Never believe anything your mother says," and she's always told them never to listen to their father. Possibly as a result, now they're grown up they show every sign of thinking for themselves. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021