United Methodist Church may split over gay marriage and LGBT Clergy

JoeMorgue · 3rd January 2020, 02:36 PM

//Note. I hem-hawed over whether to put this here or down in social. Move if necessary//

The United Methodist Church, which holds a demoniation of 12 million Americans and is the 3rd largest organized church in America (after the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention) is proposing a split to resolve years of heated debate over the role of homosexuality in the church.

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/03/us/un...sal/index.html

Quote:

CNN - United Methodist Church leaders are proposing a split into more than one denomination in a bid to resolve years of debate over LGBT clergy and same-sex weddings, according to the church's official news agency.

The proposal, from a 16-member group of bishops and church leaders, says a separation was "the best means to resolve our differences, allowing each part of the Church to remain true to its theological understanding, while recognizing the dignity, equality, integrity, and respect of every person."

The restructuring comes after a contentious General Conference of the second-largest Protestant denomination in the US voted last year to reinforce the church's stance against ordaining gay clergy and performing same-sex weddings.

Thor 2 · 3rd January 2020, 03:21 PM

Once again I find myself puzzling about those who stubbornly cling to a religion who's other adherents don't want them. Desperately they insist on moulding the religion into a form they can comfortably fit into. Do they then still believe in the authenticity of that form I wonder? Many parts of scripture must be overlooked to achieve this end.

Possibly the biggest champion of this movement would be John Shelby Spong, who is described by some Christians (of a more traditional bent), as the Anglican Churches worst nightmare. Rejecting scripture after scripture he has issue with (I emphatically agree with him here), he still proclaims his Christianity. I admit to being flummoxed by this.

d4m10n · 10th January 2020, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The United Methodist Church, which holds a denomination of 12 million Americans and is the 3rd largest organized church in America (after the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention) is proposing a split to resolve years of heated debate over the role of homosexuality in the church.

I was raised in all three of these faith traditions, as it happens. The first is my mother's familial faith (going back for quite a few generations), the second my birth father's faith, the third my adoptive father's. Anyhow, I think this is a solid move for the UMC, even if it makes their name into a bit of an ironic anachronism. Better to have more congregations which exhibit what Pinker calls “a benevolent hypocrisy, for which we should all be grateful” than to have more places where people feel free to openly indulge in bigotry, using Bronze Age scribblings for cover.

GodMark2 · 10th January 2020, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Once again I find myself puzzling about those who stubbornly cling to a religion who's other adherents don't want them. Desperately they insist on moulding the religion into a form they can comfortably fit into. Do they then still believe in the authenticity of that form I wonder? Many parts of scripture must be overlooked to achieve this end.

Well, in this case, it's pretty close to 50-50 split. Add to that the regional nature of the split, and many individual churches tend to be fairly solidly to one side or the other, and each side sees itself as the legit majority. Many communities only have one church building per denomination, so it's not always an option to switch to another one while still 'keeping your faith'.

I do wonder what's to become of the billions of dollars of church properties. Who's gonna divvy that up, and how much bloodshed will there be before everyone grudgingly accepts (metaphorically speaking)?

shemp · 11th January 2020, 08:44 AM

I want to see some Crusades before this is over!

theprestige · 11th January 2020, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by shemp

I want to see some Crusades before this is over!

This isn't the kind of thing that leads to crusades. Internal schisms lead to reformation, differentiation, or inquisition.

The only way to get a Crusade out of this would be if the Ottoman Empire conquered Dallas, Texas, and the King called on all Methodists to put aside their differences and march to liberate their founding city.

Puppycow · 15th January 2020, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I was raised in all three of these faith traditions, as it happens. The first is my mother's familial faith (going back for quite a few generations), the second my birth father's faith, the third my adoptive father's. Anyhow, I think this is a solid move for the UMC, even if it makes their name into a bit of an ironic anachronism. Better to have more congregations which exhibit what Pinker calls “a benevolent hypocrisy, for which we should all be grateful” than to have more places where people feel free to openly indulge in bigotry, using Bronze Age scribblings for cover.

That sounds reasonable to me. Better a "benevolent hypocrisy" than a "tyranny of sincere zealots". I want them to ignore and/or reject the parts of the bible that are anti-tolerant.

HansMustermann · 20th January 2020, 07:29 AM

Well, clearly they haven't read the bible carefully enough. It only says 'if a man lies down with another man like with a woman', so missionary is right out. You can ask your clergy to swear they'll never do it missionary style. Spooning on the side is probably right out too. But clearly the Lord is OK with doing it standing, or doggy style, or reverse cowgirl, or a few other positions, or He wouldn't have gone into the details

3rd January 2020, 02:36 PM	#1
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,557	United Methodist Church may split over gay marriage and LGBT Clergy //Note. I hem-hawed over whether to put this here or down in social. Move if necessary// The United Methodist Church, which holds a demoniation of 12 million Americans and is the 3rd largest organized church in America (after the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention) is proposing a split to resolve years of heated debate over the role of homosexuality in the church. CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/03/us/un...sal/index.html Quote: CNN - United Methodist Church leaders are proposing a split into more than one denomination in a bid to resolve years of debate over LGBT clergy and same-sex weddings, according to the church's official news agency. The proposal, from a 16-member group of bishops and church leaders, says a separation was "the best means to resolve our differences, allowing each part of the Church to remain true to its theological understanding, while recognizing the dignity, equality, integrity, and respect of every person." The restructuring comes after a contentious General Conference of the second-largest Protestant denomination in the US voted last year to reinforce the church's stance against ordaining gay clergy and performing same-sex weddings.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd January 2020, 03:21 PM	#2
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,588	Once again I find myself puzzling about those who stubbornly cling to a religion who's other adherents don't want them. Desperately they insist on moulding the religion into a form they can comfortably fit into. Do they then still believe in the authenticity of that form I wonder? Many parts of scripture must be overlooked to achieve this end. Possibly the biggest champion of this movement would be John Shelby Spong, who is described by some Christians (of a more traditional bent), as the Anglican Churches worst nightmare. Rejecting scripture after scripture he has issue with (I emphatically agree with him here), he still proclaims his Christianity. I admit to being flummoxed by this.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard. Last edited by Thor 2; 3rd January 2020 at 03:23 PM.

10th January 2020, 09:00 AM	#3
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,323	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The United Methodist Church, which holds a denomination of 12 million Americans and is the 3rd largest organized church in America (after the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention) is proposing a split to resolve years of heated debate over the role of homosexuality in the church. I was raised in all three of these faith traditions, as it happens. The first is my mother's familial faith (going back for quite a few generations), the second my birth father's faith, the third my adoptive father's. Anyhow, I think this is a solid move for the UMC, even if it makes their name into a bit of an ironic anachronism. Better to have more congregations which exhibit what Pinker calls “a benevolent hypocrisy, for which we should all be grateful” than to have more places where people feel free to openly indulge in bigotry, using Bronze Age scribblings for cover.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

10th January 2020, 11:13 AM	#4
GodMark2 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 2,185	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Once again I find myself puzzling about those who stubbornly cling to a religion who's other adherents don't want them. Desperately they insist on moulding the religion into a form they can comfortably fit into. Do they then still believe in the authenticity of that form I wonder? Many parts of scripture must be overlooked to achieve this end. Well, in this case, it's pretty close to 50-50 split. Add to that the regional nature of the split, and many individual churches tend to be fairly solidly to one side or the other, and each side sees itself as the legit majority. Many communities only have one church building per denomination, so it's not always an option to switch to another one while still 'keeping your faith'. I do wonder what's to become of the billions of dollars of church properties. Who's gonna divvy that up, and how much bloodshed will there be before everyone grudgingly accepts (metaphorically speaking)?
	__________________ Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.

11th January 2020, 08:44 AM	#5
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,181	I want to see some Crusades before this is over!
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare

11th January 2020, 08:59 AM	#6
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,504	Originally Posted by shemp I want to see some Crusades before this is over! This isn't the kind of thing that leads to crusades. Internal schisms lead to reformation, differentiation, or inquisition. The only way to get a Crusade out of this would be if the Ottoman Empire conquered Dallas, Texas, and the King called on all Methodists to put aside their differences and march to liberate their founding city.
	Last edited by theprestige; 11th January 2020 at 09:01 AM.

15th January 2020, 07:59 AM	#7
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,726	Originally Posted by d4m10n I was raised in all three of these faith traditions, as it happens. The first is my mother's familial faith (going back for quite a few generations), the second my birth father's faith, the third my adoptive father's. Anyhow, I think this is a solid move for the UMC, even if it makes their name into a bit of an ironic anachronism. Better to have more congregations which exhibit what Pinker calls “a benevolent hypocrisy, for which we should all be grateful” than to have more places where people feel free to openly indulge in bigotry, using Bronze Age scribblings for cover. That sounds reasonable to me. Better a "benevolent hypocrisy" than a "tyranny of sincere zealots". I want them to ignore and/or reject the parts of the bible that are anti-tolerant.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

20th January 2020, 07:29 AM	#8
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 17,986	Well, clearly they haven't read the bible carefully enough. It only says 'if a man lies down with another man like with a woman', so missionary is right out. You can ask your clergy to swear they'll never do it missionary style. Spooning on the side is probably right out too. But clearly the Lord is OK with doing it standing, or doggy style, or reverse cowgirl, or a few other positions, or He wouldn't have gone into the details
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? Last edited by HansMustermann; 20th January 2020 at 07:57 AM.