IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
View Poll Results: How will the presidential election end?
Biden wins EC, no shenanigans, Biden inaugurated 36 48.00%
Biden wins EC, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Biden POTUS 22 29.33%
Biden wins EC, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Trump POTUS 6 8.00%
No EC winner, no shenanigans, House elects Biden 0 0%
No EC winner, no shenanigans, House elects Trump 1 1.33%
No EC winner, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Biden POTUS 0 0%
No EC winner, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Trump POTUS 2 2.67%
Trump wins EC, no shenanigans, Trump inaugurated 2 2.67%
Trump wins EC, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Biden POTUS 0 0%
Trump wins EC, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Trump POTUS 1 1.33%
On Planet X, Shenanigans becomes the new president 5 6.67%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 24th October 2020, 01:38 AM   #1
Firestone
Proud Award Award recipient
 
Firestone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
How does the 2020 presidential election end?

Time for a final poll.

To elaborate on "shenanigans", I mean major and successful efforts to disrupt the counting of ballots, state legislatures replacing Electors, etc, not the usual claims of fraud here and there.
__________________
The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

Last edited by Firestone; 24th October 2020 at 02:15 AM.
Firestone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 01:45 AM   #2
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,641
I've picked

"No EC winner, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Trump POTUS"

Though I think the shenanigans will lead to there being no EC winner (several states refusing to provide an election result due to there being hundreds of thousands of contested votes). Biden will win the popular vote by a big margin AND if the election results were allowed to stand, would have won the EC comfortably.

I also think that both the House and SCOTUS will be involved in President Trump retaining the Presidency though I'm not sure in which order.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 01:49 AM   #3
Firestone
Proud Award Award recipient
 
Firestone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
I think the Biden victory will be sufficiently large to make the shenanigans toothless.

(I hope I won't regret this post in two weeks.)
__________________
The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan
Firestone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 01:58 AM   #4
Firestone
Proud Award Award recipient
 
Firestone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I've picked

"No EC winner, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Trump POTUS"

Though I think the shenanigans will lead to there being no EC winner (several states refusing to provide an election result due to there being hundreds of thousands of contested votes). Biden will win the popular vote by a big margin AND if the election results were allowed to stand, would have won the EC comfortably.

I also think that both the House and SCOTUS will be involved in President Trump retaining the Presidency though I'm not sure in which order.
(second bolding mine)
The "House of Cards" scenario. That also involved delaying the election in some crucial states at the last minute for (obviously) manufactured reasons.
__________________
The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan
Firestone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 02:35 AM   #5
Safe-Keeper
Penultimate Amazing
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,260
If it was an option, I would choose "Biden wins EC, shenanigans, Biden inaugurated".
__________________
"He's like a drunk being given a sobriety test by the police after being pulled over. Just as a drunk can't walk a straight line, Trump can't think in a straight line. He's all over the place."--Stacyhs
"If you are still hung up on that whole words-have-meaning thing, then 2020 is going to be a long year for you." --Ladewig
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 02:48 AM   #6
Firestone
Proud Award Award recipient
 
Firestone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
If it was an option, I would choose "Biden wins EC, shenanigans, Biden inaugurated".
Yes, too many possible scenarios.
Shenanigans could occur at many phases of the weird system the US uses to elect a president.
__________________
The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan
Firestone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 05:36 AM   #7
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 28,595
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
If it was an option, I would choose "Biden wins EC, shenanigans, Biden inaugurated".

Yeah, I voted "Biden wins EC, shenanigans, SCOTUS declares Biden POTUS", as the closest option to what I think will happen, because there certainly will be some shenanigans, and while those may end up at the SCOTUS level, that's not a guarantee. If Biden's win is clear enough, and a lower court tells Trump to sit down and shut up, the SCOTUS might simply decline to hear the case, meaning Biden wins, but it's not the SCOTUS "declaring" him President.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 06:01 AM   #8
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,730
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
If it was an option, I would choose "Biden wins EC, shenanigans, Biden inaugurated".

There have already been shenanigans.
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 06:06 AM   #9
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,806
Massive shenanigans, evidence of voter fraud and hacking in critical districts requiring a new round of voting that will get delayed for weeks.
It will be a ***********.
__________________
Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 07:27 AM   #10
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,955
The possibility of no shenanigans is nil. The possibility of SCOTUS favoring Biden is also nil.
You may have noticed me expressing this belief over and over on the forum recently. Never in my life have I more fervently hoped to be wrong about something.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 07:56 AM   #11
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,209
Some say the election will end in fire, some say in ice. From what I've tasted of desire, I hold with those who favor fire.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 08:17 AM   #12
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,905
I voted Biden with no shenanigans. However, a more accurate description of what I think will happen is "Biden wins EC, many attempted but unsuccessful shenanigans. Biden inaugurated."

I wish I were confident in that prediction, but I do think it's the most likely outcome.

One missing option is, "Biden wins EC. Nuclear shenanigans.. No inauguration.". I think that's pretty low probability, but I wish it were a bit lower still.

I'm also only a little bit worried about the Supreme Court. They aren't a rubber stamp for Trump. Roberts, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh have all shown some spine, and Barrett is an unknown factor. If the shenanigans are minor, Florida 2000 style shenanigans, they'll probably go with Trump, but if it's just a plain old blatant attempt to declare that up is down and Trump won, they aren't some phony panel of party lackeys. They like their power. Lap dogs don't have power.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 08:46 AM   #13
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,121
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Some say the election will end in fire, some say in ice. From what I've tasted of desire, I hold with those who favor fire.
I was thinking more "bang" than "whimper".
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 08:56 AM   #14
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 38,382
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 11:52 AM   #15
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,177
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The possibility of no shenanigans is nil. The possibility of SCOTUS favoring Biden is also nil.
You are wrong - SCOTUS will 'favor' Biden. They are not the partisans you think they are. They don't owe any fealty to Trump. They serve a different master.

You see, Republicans already have they want (a packed SCOTUS) and don't need Trump anymore. In fact they desperately want to get rid of him - and this is the perfect chance. If they lose now it's actually a win-win. Firstly they don't get 4 more years of Trump destroying their future chances, and secondly they get Democrats to fix the mess. Then in 4 years time they can roar back in with a candidate who will point to what a mess Biden presided over - as if he was responsible for it.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 24th October 2020 at 11:54 AM.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 12:27 PM   #16
surrogate
Critical Thinker
 
surrogate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere within the Orion Arm (aka NJ, USA)
Posts: 443
Just because 2020 has been a strange year, it seem fitting to have an "unpresidented" result. House elects Trump.


Last edited by surrogate; 24th October 2020 at 12:28 PM.
surrogate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 07:10 PM   #17
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,949
I had to vote Planet X because the actual option wasn't there.

The SCotUS does not have the Constitutional ability to elect the President.

The actual result of a contested EC is that Congress votes based on 1 vote per State, and that vote decided by the number of Representative seats each party has in the State. Currently, the Republicans hold a 26 to 22 advantage with 2 States having equal numbers.

The actual answer should be...

Shenanigans by the SCotUS, No EC winner, House elects Trump
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 07:19 PM   #18
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,059
Biden seems to win, there are state level shenanigans, EC meets, Biden is selected.
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 07:39 PM   #19
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,816
I am still tipping a clear Trump win.

I would be very happy to have egg on my face about this.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2020, 08:00 PM   #20
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,905
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I had to vote Planet X because the actual option wasn't there.

The SCotUS does not have the Constitutional ability to elect the President.

The actual result of a contested EC is that Congress votes based on 1 vote per State, and that vote decided by the number of Representative seats each party has in the State. Currently, the Republicans hold a 26 to 22 advantage with 2 States having equal numbers.

The actual answer should be...

Shenanigans by the SCotUS, No EC winner, House elects Trump
The SC cannot "elect" a president, but they do have the constitutional authority to determine whether voters/electors have elected the president. In other words, as in Bush v. Gore, they can step in and declare procedures that have to be used by a state to determine which slate of electors has been chosen. The candidates can sue states if the candidates think that shenanigans have happened and the slate of electors that was chosen is not the one that ought to have been chosen, and SCOTUS can settle that lawsuit.

Also, the House of Representatives does not settle a "contested" election. They only settle an election where no candidate receives a majority of electoral votes. In other words, suppose the votes are counted, and candidate A receives 284 electoral votes, including the 16 electoral votes from the state of Michigan. Candidate B claims that Michigan was the site of massive voter fraud, and those 16 votes should have gone to candidate B.

The Supreme Court can settle that dispute, deciding what happened to Michigan's votes. The House of Representatives has nothing to do with that. If, after all the votes are counted, and all lawsuits settled, and at that point no candidate has at least 270 electoral votes, then and only then does the House of Representatives get involved. That could only happen if it ends up a 269-269 tie, or if a "faithless elector" fails to vote for his pledged candidate, bringing the winner's vote total below 270. (Or if a third party candidate wins a state, but that is even less likely than the "faithless elector" scenario.)


Interestingly, there was one race where the election returns were contested, and a congressional committee was appointed to sort it out. I don't know what role SCOTUS played in that decision. I suppose I'll go to wikipedia and look it up. At any rate, the Supreme Court wasn't quite as powerful back in 1876. I'm quite certain that, today, the Supreme Court would make the decisions that were made by that committee in the election of 1876. (In the actual case, the committee voted on party lines, and the majority Republican committee certified the disputed election returns in three states in favor of the Republican candidate, Rutherford B. Hayes.)

So, to recap. It is SCOTUS that settles any disputes about how the election is run and which electors get to cast votes, and how.

ETA: Well, I went to wikipedia, and in 1876, SCOTUS did not rule on any suits involved. Congress passed a law saying that the committee would decide the matter, and five Supreme Court justices were included on the fifteen member committee. A brief summary wouldn't do the story justice, so if you are interested, go to wikipedia or some other favored source and read about the election of 1876.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 24th October 2020 at 08:10 PM.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 01:26 AM   #21
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 14,150
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Some say the election will end in fire, some say in ice.
... so as a compromise, it will end in a song of both.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 02:51 PM   #22
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 16,383
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You are wrong - SCOTUS will 'favor' Biden. They are not the partisans you think they are. They don't owe any fealty to Trump. They serve a different master.



You see, Republicans already have they want (a packed SCOTUS) and don't need Trump anymore. In fact they desperately want to get rid of him - and this is the perfect chance. If they lose now it's actually a win-win. Firstly they don't get 4 more years of Trump destroying their future chances, and secondly they get Democrats to fix the mess. Then in 4 years time they can roar back in with a candidate who will point to what a mess Biden presided over - as if he was responsible for it.
I am not sure the republicans would see it that way.

Yes, they may be unhappy with trump, but if they allow the democrats to take over in 2020 it things could go very badly.

First of all, in recent history presidents usually serve for 2 terms (although with Biden's age it would probably be a Biden term then a Harris term). Secondly, the 2022 mid terms were expected to be very favorable to the democrats in the Senate, so they can either get or build on a senate Majority then. And demographic changes are not favorable to the republican party.

If the democrats win both the white house and all congress and decided to play hardball (and why not? They have watched the republican party act like pricks, so they may think "so much for playing fair and respect for norms) they can really make things rough on the republicans... End filibuster to cram through legislation, add Puerto Rico and Washington as states to make it harder for republicans to win the senate and electoral college, expand and pack the courts, pass election reforms to prevent voter suppression. Republicans could find themselves powerless for a decade. Better to cling to power now than risk all that happening.



Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 06:39 PM   #23
Louden Wilde
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: NYC
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I am not sure the republicans would see it that way.
......
Yes, they may be unhappy with trump, but if they allow the democrats to take over in 2020 it things could go very badly.
Republicans could find themselves powerless for a decade. Better to cling to power now than risk all that happening.

I agree. My question is would the Dems or governors consider breaking off/breaking apart the country in that situation? Cuomo made "jokes" about it during some of the press conferences at the height of the pandemic when talks with Trump admin were not going well. Frankly, I think it's a good idea - pretty sure the vast majority of those still voting for Trump are not going to have a kumbaya moment even with a middle of the road guy like Biden in office.
Louden Wilde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:04 PM   #24
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,880
Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
I agree. My question is would the Dems or governors consider breaking off/breaking apart the country in that situation? Cuomo made "jokes" about it during some of the press conferences at the height of the pandemic when talks with Trump admin were not going well. Frankly, I think it's a good idea - pretty sure the vast majority of those still voting for Trump are not going to have a kumbaya moment even with a middle of the road guy like Biden in office.
1860 all over again.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:06 PM   #25
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,880
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I had to vote Planet X because the actual option wasn't there.

The SCotUS does not have the Constitutional ability to elect the President.

The actual result of a contested EC is that Congress votes based on 1 vote per State, and that vote decided by the number of Representative seats each party has in the State. Currently, the Republicans hold a 26 to 22 advantage with 2 States having equal numbers.

The actual answer should be...

Shenanigans by the SCotUS, No EC winner, House elects Trump
That would mean Democracy in the US is done, and peaceful solutions don't work.
What amounts to a second civil war will take place.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:08 PM   #26
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,880
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The possibility of no shenanigans is nil. The possibility of SCOTUS favoring Biden is also nil.
You may have noticed me expressing this belief over and over on the forum recently. Never in my life have I more fervently hoped to be wrong about something.
If you are riggh, then you have two choices: Submit to a dictaorship and the end of freedom, or armed oppostion.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:09 PM   #27
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,880
I am not convinced that Supreme Court is in Trump's pocket as much as some people here think.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:29 PM   #28
Louden Wilde
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: NYC
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That would mean Democracy in the US is done, and peaceful solutions don't work.
What amounts to a second civil war will take place.
Which is why I find myself agreeing we should try to work out some kind of amicable - or at least not violent - split. Even if Biden wins a landslide EC victory and there is no court case (though the latter unlikely), there will still be a significant fraction of the country that will think it was rigged. There may still be violence. Heck, I'll be surprised if there's not a significant amount of violence on election day (as well as voter suppression).
Louden Wilde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:38 PM   #29
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,880
Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Which is why I find myself agreeing we should try to work out some kind of amicable - or at least not violent - split. Even if Biden wins a landslide EC victory and there is no court case (though the latter unlikely), there will still be a significant fraction of the country that will think it was rigged. There may still be violence. Heck, I'll be surprised if there's not a significant amount of violence on election day (as well as voter suppression).
Peaceful splitting up of a country are rare and far between. What happened in the US in 1860 and the breakup of Yugoslavia are much more common.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:44 PM   #30
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 29,955
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am not convinced that Supreme Court is in Trump's pocket as much as some people here think.
Its not Trump's pocket. Its the Fascist Republican Party's pocket. He has little actual power within the party.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:48 PM   #31
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 23,905
Even one year ago, I would have thought of "splitting/civil war" or even just large scale violence as absurd talk.

I would still like to think it is, and yet, I worry. What has changed is the huge numbers of vote early/absentee/vote by mail ballots. We simply have never had an election like this.

With an ordinary election, sure Trump would claim it was rigged if he loses, but everyone would know he lost, and he can claim it all the way to Hell and no one would care. With the election as is, there will be an awful lot of opportunity for "shenanigans", and disputes about who really won the election.

If it is clear that more people voted for Biden, and more people in the appropriate mix of states to give Biden an EC victory voted for Biden, but the Trump team manages to throw out lots of ballots on technicalities, or somehow manages to steal the election, then I don't know what will happen.

I have always believed that the American people hold fair and free elections to be sacred, and while the candidates would always do everything they legally can to win, I wouldn't expect any candidate to actually "steal" an election. i.e. go beyond what's legal. When it comes to Trump, I don't trust that.

I suppose we will see on election day. Hopefully, there will be a clear result that is beyond dispute.

And if the election is obviously stolen, I guess we'll see if that second amendment thing really works.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 08:50 PM   #32
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,880
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Its not Trump's pocket. Its the Fascist Republican Party's pocket. He has little actual power within the party.
BS.Trump pretty much controls the party now.
And I think the odds of it coming down to a Surpeme Court decision are not that great.
And have you got your rifle yet? Seriously, it things are as bad as you think they are, you had better be preparing for armed risistence.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 25th October 2020 at 08:51 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 09:48 PM   #33
AnonyMoose
Muse
 
AnonyMoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 960
I predicted Trump's win in 2016 when everyone thought Hillary had it in the bag. And I again predict Trump will win.

I think you guys are highly underestimating the power of the ten-toothed cult in your country.
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips
AnonyMoose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 10:00 PM   #34
llwyd
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 730
There will be shenanigans, but Biden victory will be so clear that they will amount to pretty much nothing and no SC intervention will be necessary. A fair bit of violence probably though, as Trump will relentlessly incite his core into further rage and insanity.
llwyd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2020, 11:25 PM   #35
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,745
Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
There will be shenanigans, but Biden victory will be so clear that they will amount to pretty much nothing and no SC intervention will be necessary. A fair bit of violence probably though, as Trump will relentlessly incite his core into further rage and insanity.
Agreed.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2020, 12:08 AM   #36
Firestone
Proud Award Award recipient
 
Firestone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am not convinced that Supreme Court is in Trump's pocket as much as some people here think.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised many people here think SCOTUS will be involved yet not do Trump's work.

I'm not that optimistic, but obviously hope they are right.
__________________
The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan
Firestone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2020, 12:15 AM   #37
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
The Trump admin has made it pretty clear they’re going to dispute the results, specifically mail in ballots.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2020, 12:16 AM   #38
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am not convinced that Supreme Court is in Trump's pocket as much as some people here think.
I think the SC, and much of the GOP for that matter, would be glad to be rid of him tbh
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2020, 01:19 AM   #39
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,949
Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Which is why I find myself agreeing we should try to work out some kind of amicable - or at least not violent - split. Even if Biden wins a landslide EC victory and there is no court case (though the latter unlikely), there will still be a significant fraction of the country that will think it was rigged. There may still be violence. Heck, I'll be surprised if there's not a significant amount of violence on election day (as well as voter suppression).
The problem is that there are no clear lines of split such as there was with the Civil War Northern and Southern States. The biggest split is Rural vs Urban with Suburban being the swing voters. That means all States have strong Democrat areas and strong Republican ones, for instance Upstate New York is very conservative and goes Republican while NYC is very liberal and goes heavily Democrat. Like-wise Georgia is heavily Democrat in the Urban areas where most blacks are, while the rural whites are extremely conservative.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2020, 01:21 AM   #40
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,949
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am not convinced that Supreme Court is in Trump's pocket as much as some people here think.
Both Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have voted against Trump in several high profile cases.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:14 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.