[Merged] Bitcoin - Part 3 - Page 80

psionl0 · 17th January 2023, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Is pointing out that the final buyer of a commodity actually ends up with something special pleading?

Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"?

The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion.

wareyin · 18th January 2023, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"?

The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion.

Are you trying to imply without actually saying that when you buy bitcoin you do "end up with something"?

psionl0 · 18th January 2023, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Are you trying to imply without actually saying that when you buy bitcoin you do "end up with something"?

No, I am actually saying that.

wareyin · 18th January 2023, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

No, I am actually saying that.

Then say it. What do you end up with?

jeremyp · 18th January 2023, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"?

The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion.

Inability to argue without insulting your opponents noted.

What do you get if you buy BTC?

The_Animus · 18th January 2023, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

What do you get if you buy BTC?

More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted.

ponderingturtle · 18th January 2023, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted.

Kind of like buying gold in everquest.

wareyin · 18th January 2023, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted.

"More or less" the same thing, eh. In the same vein as a mayfly and the sun have "more or less" the same lifespan, right?

Samson · 18th January 2023, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Are you trying to imply without actually saying that when you buy bitcoin you do "end up with something"?

In fairness, I know an actual person who bought a bitcoin then sold that bitcoin, and purchased a car with the difference between buy and sell price. At that point my conversation became meaningless to him, but it is also true that the story is uncommon. Stock brokers will tell you that clients have the greatest difficulty selling, either for a profit or a loss. That is why the vast majority of bitcoin owners are round trippers.

novaphile · 18th January 2023, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Samson

In fairness, I know an actual person who bought a bitcoin then sold that bitcoin, and purchased a car with the difference between buy and sell price. At that point my conversation became meaningless to him, but it is also true that the story is uncommon. Stock brokers will tell you that clients have the greatest difficulty selling, either for a profit or a loss. That is why the vast majority of bitcoin owners are round trippers.

Similarly, I know someone who made "a metric fuckton" of money from bitcoin speculation.

While I'm happy for him, I suspect that the people who bought his bitcoins didn't do so well.

Such is life.

psionl0 · 18th January 2023, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Then say it. What do you end up with?

Originally Posted by jeremyp

What do you get if you buy BTC?

I know from experience that dishonest posters like you will simply pretend that I never answered the question no matter what I post.

But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you.

wareyin · 19th January 2023, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you.

Without a human authority recognizing your right, whether to bitcoin or anything else, you don't have that right. And rights to "intellectual property" are even more dependent on human authority than ownership of an actual thing that exists. Also, as long as nobody gets access to your physical safe or wallet, nobody can take your cash away from you either, so that's not all that impressive.

Suddenly · 19th January 2023, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"?

The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion.

You literally are ultimately getting a series of numbers. Maybe more an interest in a part of a series of numbers. However it is framed, all code comes down to numbers.

But you misstate the point. You were comparing it to commodities. Which if I buy corn futures and don't sell them I'm getting corn, no?

jrhowell · 19th January 2023, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you.

My understanding is that a sufficient number of bitcoin nodes working together would be able to hijack the blockchain. I can picture a scenario with interest and value of bitcoin falling that some major consortia of bitcoin miners might coordinate to hack it and steal what the could before their efforts were discovered. That would likely result in the total demise of bitcoin.

psionl0 · 19th January 2023, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by jrhowell

My understanding is that a sufficient number of bitcoin nodes working together would be able to hijack the blockchain. I can picture a scenario with interest and value of bitcoin falling that some major consortia of bitcoin miners might coordinate to hack it and steal what the could before their efforts were discovered. That would likely result in the total demise of bitcoin.

Then your understanding is incorrect. If an entity gains 51% control of the mining process then they can control which transactions get onto the blockchain and may even be able to create a new blockchain fork but they can't create new transactions from an individual wallet without their private key.

psionl0 · 19th January 2023, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

You literally are ultimately getting a series of numbers that others are willing to pay you for.

ftfy.

Originally Posted by Suddenly

But you misstate the point. You were comparing it to commodities. Which if I buy corn futures and don't sell them I'm getting corn, no?

Is that not also the case if you buy BTC futures?

psionl0 · 19th January 2023, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Without a human authority recognizing your right, whether to bitcoin or anything else, you don't have that right.

You are trying to mangle the definition of "right". Nobody has the ability to access the property in a wallet except the holder of the private key.

Originally Posted by wareyin

And rights to "intellectual property" are even more dependent on human authority than ownership of an actual thing that exists.

Intellectual property does not mean "non-existent" property.

Originally Posted by wareyin

Also, as long as nobody gets access to your physical safe or wallet, nobody can take your cash away from you either, so that's not all that impressive.

That's a different argument to the one where you are claiming that bitcoin "doesn't exist". It may not be "all that impressive" but it is impressive enough that people are willing to pay for it.

jrhowell · 20th January 2023, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Then your understanding is incorrect. If an entity gains 51% control of the mining process then they can control which transactions get onto the blockchain and may even be able to create a new blockchain fork but they can't create new transactions from an individual wallet without their private key.

Good to know, but there are still plenty of problems with that. Someone who can control what gets on the blockchain can remove a transaction that transfers bitcoins to you. If the blockchain forks the same bitcoins could be sold to multiple people.

The value of bitcoin is tied to people's faith in the integrity of the blockchain. If that faith is lost, even if the blockchain in not truly compromised, then bitcoin ownership become far more risky. Do you still really own those bitcoins if no one believes what the blockchain tells them?

psionl0 · 20th January 2023, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by jrhowell

Good to know, but there are still plenty of problems with that. Someone who can control what gets on the blockchain can remove a transaction that transfers bitcoins to you. If the blockchain forks the same bitcoins could be sold to multiple people.

It doesn't work that way. At most one or two blocks at the top of the chain can be removed. Beyond that no transaction can be removed. In the event of a fork, the longest chain wins and the transactions from the fork that didn't make it are as if they never occurred.

Of course there have been forks such as "bitcoin cash" that exist simultaneously but they are a different type of coin. The solution to the "double spend" problem has never been cracked.

wareyin · 20th January 2023, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You are trying to mangle the definition of "right". Nobody has the ability to access the property in a wallet except the holder of the private key.

Nonsense. Without a human authority to recognize the numbers in that wallet as anything at all, then they're nothing. And nobody has access to the property in your safe except the holder of the key, either.

Originally Posted by psionl0

Intellectual property does not mean "non-existent" property.

As you're applying it to an intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value, it's helpful to contrast it with things that actually exist in the world as physical things.

Originally Posted by psionl0

That's a different argument to the one where you are claiming that bitcoin "doesn't exist". It may not be "all that impressive" but it is impressive enough that people are willing to pay for it.

Ah, I thought it was clear that the "it" that wasn't impressive is your claim of security, not the con game that is crypto. I know people are willing to pay for crypto. I pointed that out in the "bunch of rich suckers will forget all the crypto problems and start buying them again" phrase that got your knickers in a twist, remember?

Suddenly · 20th January 2023, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

ftfy.

Maybe I need to explain where I am coming from as I tend to speak in riddles.

A medium of exchange should be valuable only in the abstract because other people will give you money. Bitcoin not being tangible is a good thing.

It's actually a problem if it were as tangible as corn because, well, farmers grow it and people eat it and that's not a good way to monitor money supply.

The dollar is effectively disconnected as well. People like to cite the full backing of the United States Government, but that's is also a mirage in that only has value if people think it does. If people completely lose confidence in the dollar there will be nothing the feds can do about it but make it worse.

I fully believe that cryptocurrency can theoretically be a medium of exchange preferable to government backed currency. The ways a coin can be constructed are near infinite and figuring out a construction that results in a stable medium which self-adjusts to real world conditions w/r/t controlling the supply of that medium. If a coin outperforms fiat then it is what it is. Bitcoin will never be that coin.

The problem is that we are nowhere near a coin that could do this and as long as crypto culture is full of people trying to get rich innovation is going to suffer because there will be too many rugpulls and pump and dump issues both blatant and subtle. Plus the idea of holding a currency to wait to see if it gains value is self-defeating.

Which not only detracts from what should be the goal it also makes any sane person very wary of participation so the coins are hard to test.

My main problems with bitcoin are that (1) it inherently sucks as a currency and (2) it has a dominant position within the culture and as such cements the idea of a coin as an investment instead of a tool.

My theory is that adoption of a cryptocurrency will never come from people trying to get a cryptocurrency adopted. It will be a sort of weird accident probably involving a game token.

15-20 years ago a ton of online commerce was being done via pokerstars transfers. It's not completely insane that it could have become a more and more dominant means of exchange. Pokerstars wasn't crypto or anything, but the idea of an ingame blockchain token for some huge game being used to buy out of game stuff and proving more useful and reliable than other currencies seems way more likely than it happening by a straight crypto coin launch meant to be currency.

Roger Ramjets · 20th January 2023, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

People like to cite the full backing of the United States Government, but that's is also a mirage in that only has value if people think it does. If people completely lose confidence in the dollar there will be nothing the feds can do about it but make it worse.

But how likely is that to happen? It's not 'the dollar' that people have confidence in, but what's backing it - the entire United States of America. Something truly catastrophic would have to happen to destroy that confidence.

Quote:

I fully believe that cryptocurrency can theoretically be a medium of exchange preferable to government backed currency.

In it's current form? I don't agree. Every day people are finding less reasons to use cryptocurrency. The more attempts are made to use it the less attractive it looks. The idea that it would supplant government backed currency is laughable.

Quote:

If a coin outperforms fiat then it is what it is. Bitcoin will never be that coin.

But Bitcoin is the only one with even the faintest chance of achieving that goal. If it can't do it, no crytpocurrency can.

Quote:

as long as crypto culture is full of people trying to get rich innovation is going to suffer because there will be too many rugpulls and pump and dump issues both blatant and subtle. Plus the idea of holding a currency to wait to see if it gains value is self-defeating.

But that's Bitcoin's only (legal) utility! Without people trying to get rich it would be nothing.

Quote:

My main problems with bitcoin are that (1) it inherently sucks as a currency and (2) it has a dominant position within the culture and as such cements the idea of a coin as an investment instead of a tool.

I'm happy stopping at (1). Bitcoin sucks by design. It was created by libertarians for all the wrong reasons, so that it sucks is not surprising.

Quote:

My theory is that adoption of a cryptocurrency will never come from people trying to get a cryptocurrency adopted. It will be a sort of weird accident probably involving a game token.

Except that won't happen, because game tokens are the opposite of what cryptocurrency is supposed to be.

Quote:

15-20 years ago a ton of online commerce was being done via pokerstars transfers. It's not completely insane that it could have become a more and more dominant means of exchange. Pokerstars wasn't crypto or anything, but the idea of an ingame blockchain token for some huge game being used to buy out of game stuff and proving more useful and reliable than other currencies seems way more likely than it happening by a straight crypto coin launch meant to be currency.

What problem that stopped it becoming a 'more and more dominant means of exchange' would crypto solve? I can't imagine such a 'currency' becoming a dominant means of exchange when it relies on the activities of online poke players. And if it doesn't, what makes it any different from other cryptos?

psionl0 · 20th January 2023, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Without a human authority to recognize the numbers in that wallet as anything at all, then they're nothing.

Pure BS.

Originally Posted by wareyin

As you're applying it to an intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value, it's helpful to contrast it with things that actually exist in the world as physical things.

What is this "intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value" you are referring to? It certainly isn't bitcoin.

Originally Posted by wareyin

Ah, I thought it was clear that the "it" that wasn't impressive is your claim of security, not the con game that is crypto. I know people are willing to pay for crypto. I pointed that out in the "bunch of rich suckers will forget all the crypto problems and start buying them again" phrase that got your knickers in a twist, remember?

Meaningless drivel. No matter how many times you assert (without evidence) that bitcoin is a "con game" it will never be true.

jeremyp · 23rd January 2023, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted.

Don”t forget you can also pay your taxes in EU countries in Euros.

jeremyp · 23rd January 2023, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I know from experience that dishonest posters like you will simply pretend that I never answered the question no matter what I post.

But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you.

Insult your opponents. That will definitely win you the argument.

BTC is not intellectual property. Intellectual property is things like ideas and works of art. The idea of BTC is intellectual property, but not the actual coins.

what you own with BTC is a number, or a line in a ledger, if you prefer. There’s nothing else. The algorithm guarantees you nothing. It’s other people who determine that this line in a ledger is worth something. Ask the people who bought Luna how much intellectual property they have.

wareyin · 23rd January 2023, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Pure BS.

Originally Posted by psionl0

What is this "intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value" you are referring to? It certainly isn't bitcoin.

Wait, you think bitcoin is tangible now?

Originally Posted by psionl0

Meaningless drivel. No matter how many times you assert (without evidence) that bitcoin is a "con game" it will never be true.

Dude, this is a backwater forum. Nobody here is going to buy into bitcoins because you refuse to accept their fraudulent nature (in writing).

psionl0 · 23rd January 2023, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Wait, you think bitcoin is tangible now?

No I think that some idiots are desperately trying to say that bitcoin doesn't exist because it is not a physical substance.

Originally Posted by wareyin

Nobody here is going to buy into bitcoins because you refuse to accept their fraudulent nature (in writing).

What "fraudulent nature (in writing)"? Have you got any proof that bitcoin itself is "fraudulent"?

wareyin · 24th January 2023, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

No I think that some idiots are desperately trying to say that bitcoin doesn't exist because it is not a physical substance.

That's a particularly odd way to interpret the straightforward responses to you. Why would you think anyone is saying that bitcoin doesn't exist? Especially those who've already said it exists as a way to scam the gullible out of real money?

Originally Posted by psionl0

What "fraudulent nature (in writing)"? Have you got any proof that bitcoin itself is "fraudulent"?

The "in writing" part refers to having been written on this forum, in particular in this thread. I'm sorry that was so confusing to you.

psionl0 · 24th January 2023, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

That's a particularly odd way to interpret the straightforward responses to you. Why would you think anyone is saying that bitcoin doesn't exist?

You are the one making a big noise about bitcoin being "intangible". It must be a big deal for you.

Originally Posted by wareyin

The "in writing" part refers to having been written on this forum, in particular in this thread.

So, no evidence that bitcoin is "fraudulent". Just some people posting what you want to read.

wareyin · 24th January 2023, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You are the one making a big noise about bitcoin being "intangible". It must be a big deal for you.

I think I see the problem. Did you believe that "intangible" means "doesn't exist"? If so, I urge you to crack open a dictionary.

Originally Posted by psionl0

So, no evidence that bitcoin is "fraudulent". Just some people posting what you want to read.

Why would I give one of the staunchest devotees of bitcoin evidence that he will creatively misinterpret? Who are the "some people" who are posting what I want to read, and where did you pull that out of?

psionl0 · 24th January 2023, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Why would I give one of the staunchest devotees of bitcoin evidence that he will creatively misinterpret?

You wouldn't provide evidence for anybody because you have none. You are just making up BS or copying it from other posts in this forum.

"Devotee of bitcoin" is just a desperate attempt to deflect from the fact that you know nothing.

wareyin · 25th January 2023, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You wouldn't provide evidence for anybody because you have none. You are just making up BS or copying it from other posts in this forum.

"Devotee of bitcoin" is just a desperate attempt to deflect from the fact that you know nothing.

I know that bitcoin is a con job foisted on the gullible, which is more than I can say for the staunch devotee (singular) who keeps trying to not only defend it, but convince other people to buy bitcoin with the outrageous claim of always earning more money. Actually, anyone assuring people of gains for buying bitcoin probably knows it's a con as well, but of course such a person would never admit such in writing.

psionl0 · 25th January 2023, 07:05 AM

Give it up. You are no longer posting BS any more. You are just telling lies.

wareyin · 25th January 2023, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Give it up. You are no longer posting BS any more. You are just telling lies.

While I'm sure that this sounded to you like a compelling argument in your head, I'm not sure that it landed well in print.

Why in the world do you feel the need for an explanation why BtC is a pump and dump scheme after all the recent discussion on wash trading anyway? It's not like there aren't tons of recent news articles about Bitcoin scams or even articles that call into question your claims about the security of bitcoin from being taken from an owner by government agencies.

marting · 25th January 2023, 11:05 AM

Binance moves to block a key market manipulation tactic that makes a token look more popular than it actually is
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...is/ar-AA16JgpF

Quote:

Binance is launching a new function Thursday to block a key market manipulation tactic, the cryptocurrency exchange announced Tuesday.
...
Called the Self-Trade Prevention Function, it is aimed at clamping down on users or groups of users that trade with themselves to create the illusion of higher trading activity.

Binance, the largest crypto exchange in the World taking tough action!

Oh, wait. Maybe not so tough.

Quote:

The Self-Trade Prevention Function is optional, and won't impact those who choose not to use it.

Gotta love self regulation.

psionl0 · 25th January 2023, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Why in the world do you feel the need for an explanation why BtC is a pump and dump scheme after all the recent discussion on wash trading anyway?

You are not saying that pump and dump schemes are done with bitcoin. You are saying that bitcoin itself is a pump and dump scheme.

It's like saying that fiat currency is a scam because some scammers run con jobs with it.

Originally Posted by wareyin

It's not like there aren't tons of recent news articles about Bitcoin scams or even articles that call into question your claims about the security of bitcoin from being taken from an owner by government agencies.

They might legally have the wallets but they won't get any bitcoins out of them without the private key.

wareyin · 26th January 2023, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You are not saying that pump and dump schemes are done with bitcoin. You are saying that bitcoin itself is a pump and dump scheme.

It's like saying that fiat currency is a scam because some scammers run con jobs with it.

"Some" is doing some veeeerrrrry heavy lifting in your analogy! (But hey, devotees gotta devote, amirite?)

Originally Posted by psionl0

They might legally have the wallets but they won't get any bitcoins out of them without the private key.

Well, the fact that government agencies actually can take cryptocurrency out of your "possession" despite your previous claims obviously must now be spun to some silly 'but they can't spend it', as though that makes it secure.

Dr.Sid · 26th January 2023, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Well, the fact that government agencies actually can take cryptocurrency out of your "possession" despite your previous claims obviously must now be spun to some silly 'but they can't spend it', as though that makes it secure.

How ?

wareyin · 26th January 2023, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

How ?

How, what?

How did the FBI seize bitcoin? Read the article I posted. How would the FBI seizing your bitcoin still leave bitcoin in your possession? Damned if I know.

jeremyp · 26th January 2023, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

How, what?

How did the FBI seize bitcoin? Read the article I posted. How would the FBI seizing your bitcoin still leave bitcoin in your possession? Damned if I know.

The article doesn't say. It says they issued a warrant to seize the wallets but, unless the wallet is a unique physical device, they can't be sure the scammer doesn't have a copy and anybody who has access to the private key can get the BTC out of the wallet.

17th January 2023, 06:22 PM	#3161
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by Suddenly Is pointing out that the final buyer of a commodity actually ends up with something special pleading? Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"? The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

18th January 2023, 07:02 AM	#3163
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by wareyin Are you trying to imply without actually saying that when you buy bitcoin you do "end up with something"? No, I am actually saying that.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

18th January 2023, 09:25 AM	#3166
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,378	Originally Posted by jeremyp What do you get if you buy BTC? More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,378	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

18th January 2023, 01:10 PM	#3167
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 53,065	Originally Posted by The_Animus More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted. Kind of like buying gold in everquest.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

18th January 2023, 04:25 PM	#3170
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 4,919	Originally Posted by Samson In fairness, I know an actual person who bought a bitcoin then sold that bitcoin, and purchased a car with the difference between buy and sell price. At that point my conversation became meaningless to him, but it is also true that the story is uncommon. Stock brokers will tell you that clients have the greatest difficulty selling, either for a profit or a loss. That is why the vast majority of bitcoin owners are round trippers. Similarly, I know someone who made "a metric fuckton" of money from bitcoin speculation. While I'm happy for him, I suspect that the people who bought his bitcoins didn't do so well. Such is life.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

18th January 2023, 06:33 AM	#3162
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"? The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion. Are you trying to imply without actually saying that when you buy bitcoin you do "end up with something"?

18th January 2023, 07:18 AM	#3164
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 No, I am actually saying that. Then say it. What do you end up with?

18th January 2023, 07:19 AM	#3165
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,797	Originally Posted by psionl0 Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"? The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion. Inability to argue without insulting your opponents noted. What do you get if you buy BTC?

18th January 2023, 01:27 PM	#3168
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by The_Animus More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted. "More or less" the same thing, eh. In the same vein as a mayfly and the sun have "more or less" the same lifespan, right?

18th January 2023, 03:01 PM	#3169
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,704	Originally Posted by wareyin Are you trying to imply without actually saying that when you buy bitcoin you do "end up with something"? In fairness, I know an actual person who bought a bitcoin then sold that bitcoin, and purchased a car with the difference between buy and sell price. At that point my conversation became meaningless to him, but it is also true that the story is uncommon. Stock brokers will tell you that clients have the greatest difficulty selling, either for a profit or a loss. That is why the vast majority of bitcoin owners are round trippers.

18th January 2023, 06:16 PM	#3171
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by wareyin Then say it. What do you end up with? Originally Posted by jeremyp What do you get if you buy BTC? I know from experience that dishonest posters like you will simply pretend that I never answered the question no matter what I post. But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

19th January 2023, 06:03 AM	#3172
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you. Without a human authority recognizing your right, whether to bitcoin or anything else, you don't have that right. And rights to "intellectual property" are even more dependent on human authority than ownership of an actual thing that exists. Also, as long as nobody gets access to your physical safe or wallet, nobody can take your cash away from you either, so that's not all that impressive.

19th January 2023, 07:49 AM	#3173
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,614	Originally Posted by psionl0 Are you trying to say that when you buy bitcoin you don't "end up with something"? The more ignorant might try and say that you only get a "number" but that is a ridiculous assertion. You literally are ultimately getting a series of numbers. Maybe more an interest in a part of a series of numbers. However it is framed, all code comes down to numbers. But you misstate the point. You were comparing it to commodities. Which if I buy corn futures and don't sell them I'm getting corn, no?

19th January 2023, 08:16 AM	#3174
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Posts: 798	Originally Posted by psionl0 But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you. My understanding is that a sufficient number of bitcoin nodes working together would be able to hijack the blockchain. I can picture a scenario with interest and value of bitcoin falling that some major consortia of bitcoin miners might coordinate to hack it and steal what the could before their efforts were discovered. That would likely result in the total demise of bitcoin.

19th January 2023, 08:30 PM	#3175
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by jrhowell My understanding is that a sufficient number of bitcoin nodes working together would be able to hijack the blockchain. I can picture a scenario with interest and value of bitcoin falling that some major consortia of bitcoin miners might coordinate to hack it and steal what the could before their efforts were discovered. That would likely result in the total demise of bitcoin. Then your understanding is incorrect. If an entity gains 51% control of the mining process then they can control which transactions get onto the blockchain and may even be able to create a new blockchain fork but they can't create new transactions from an individual wallet without their private key.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

19th January 2023, 08:32 PM	#3176
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by Suddenly You literally are ultimately getting a series of numbers that others are willing to pay you for. ftfy. Originally Posted by Suddenly But you misstate the point. You were comparing it to commodities. Which if I buy corn futures and don't sell them I'm getting corn, no? Is that not also the case if you buy BTC futures?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

19th January 2023, 08:39 PM	#3177
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by wareyin Without a human authority recognizing your right, whether to bitcoin or anything else, you don't have that right. You are trying to mangle the definition of "right". Nobody has the ability to access the property in a wallet except the holder of the private key. Originally Posted by wareyin And rights to "intellectual property" are even more dependent on human authority than ownership of an actual thing that exists. Intellectual property does not mean "non-existent" property. Originally Posted by wareyin Also, as long as nobody gets access to your physical safe or wallet, nobody can take your cash away from you either, so that's not all that impressive. That's a different argument to the one where you are claiming that bitcoin "doesn't exist". It may not be "all that impressive" but it is impressive enough that people are willing to pay for it.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th January 2023, 05:58 AM	#3178
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tampa Bay, Florida Posts: 798	Originally Posted by psionl0 Then your understanding is incorrect. If an entity gains 51% control of the mining process then they can control which transactions get onto the blockchain and may even be able to create a new blockchain fork but they can't create new transactions from an individual wallet without their private key. Good to know, but there are still plenty of problems with that. Someone who can control what gets on the blockchain can remove a transaction that transfers bitcoins to you. If the blockchain forks the same bitcoins could be sold to multiple people. The value of bitcoin is tied to people's faith in the integrity of the blockchain. If that faith is lost, even if the blockchain in not truly compromised, then bitcoin ownership become far more risky. Do you still really own those bitcoins if no one believes what the blockchain tells them?
	Last edited by jrhowell; 20th January 2023 at 06:16 AM.

20th January 2023, 07:10 AM	#3179
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by jrhowell Good to know, but there are still plenty of problems with that. Someone who can control what gets on the blockchain can remove a transaction that transfers bitcoins to you. If the blockchain forks the same bitcoins could be sold to multiple people. It doesn't work that way. At most one or two blocks at the top of the chain can be removed. Beyond that no transaction can be removed. In the event of a fork, the longest chain wins and the transactions from the fork that didn't make it are as if they never occurred. Of course there have been forks such as "bitcoin cash" that exist simultaneously but they are a different type of coin. The solution to the "double spend" problem has never been cracked.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th January 2023, 07:12 AM	#3180
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 You are trying to mangle the definition of "right". Nobody has the ability to access the property in a wallet except the holder of the private key. Nonsense. Without a human authority to recognize the numbers in that wallet as anything at all, then they're nothing. And nobody has access to the property in your safe except the holder of the key, either. Originally Posted by psionl0 Intellectual property does not mean "non-existent" property. As you're applying it to an intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value, it's helpful to contrast it with things that actually exist in the world as physical things. Originally Posted by psionl0 That's a different argument to the one where you are claiming that bitcoin "doesn't exist". It may not be "all that impressive" but it is impressive enough that people are willing to pay for it. Ah, I thought it was clear that the "it" that wasn't impressive is your claim of security, not the con game that is crypto. I know people are willing to pay for crypto. I pointed that out in the "bunch of rich suckers will forget all the crypto problems and start buying them again" phrase that got your knickers in a twist, remember?

20th January 2023, 09:44 AM	#3181
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 5,614	Originally Posted by psionl0 ftfy. Maybe I need to explain where I am coming from as I tend to speak in riddles. A medium of exchange should be valuable only in the abstract because other people will give you money. Bitcoin not being tangible is a good thing. It's actually a problem if it were as tangible as corn because, well, farmers grow it and people eat it and that's not a good way to monitor money supply. The dollar is effectively disconnected as well. People like to cite the full backing of the United States Government, but that's is also a mirage in that only has value if people think it does. If people completely lose confidence in the dollar there will be nothing the feds can do about it but make it worse. I fully believe that cryptocurrency can theoretically be a medium of exchange preferable to government backed currency. The ways a coin can be constructed are near infinite and figuring out a construction that results in a stable medium which self-adjusts to real world conditions w/r/t controlling the supply of that medium. If a coin outperforms fiat then it is what it is. Bitcoin will never be that coin. The problem is that we are nowhere near a coin that could do this and as long as crypto culture is full of people trying to get rich innovation is going to suffer because there will be too many rugpulls and pump and dump issues both blatant and subtle. Plus the idea of holding a currency to wait to see if it gains value is self-defeating. Which not only detracts from what should be the goal it also makes any sane person very wary of participation so the coins are hard to test. My main problems with bitcoin are that (1) it inherently sucks as a currency and (2) it has a dominant position within the culture and as such cements the idea of a coin as an investment instead of a tool. My theory is that adoption of a cryptocurrency will never come from people trying to get a cryptocurrency adopted. It will be a sort of weird accident probably involving a game token. 15-20 years ago a ton of online commerce was being done via pokerstars transfers. It's not completely insane that it could have become a more and more dominant means of exchange. Pokerstars wasn't crypto or anything, but the idea of an ingame blockchain token for some huge game being used to buy out of game stuff and proving more useful and reliable than other currencies seems way more likely than it happening by a straight crypto coin launch meant to be currency.

20th January 2023, 05:36 PM	#3182
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,312	Originally Posted by Suddenly People like to cite the full backing of the United States Government, but that's is also a mirage in that only has value if people think it does. If people completely lose confidence in the dollar there will be nothing the feds can do about it but make it worse. But how likely is that to happen? It's not 'the dollar' that people have confidence in, but what's backing it - the entire United States of America. Something truly catastrophic would have to happen to destroy that confidence. Quote: I fully believe that cryptocurrency can theoretically be a medium of exchange preferable to government backed currency. In it's current form? I don't agree. Every day people are finding less reasons to use cryptocurrency. The more attempts are made to use it the less attractive it looks. The idea that it would supplant government backed currency is laughable. Quote: If a coin outperforms fiat then it is what it is. Bitcoin will never be that coin. But Bitcoin is the only one with even the faintest chance of achieving that goal. If it can't do it, no crytpocurrency can. Quote: as long as crypto culture is full of people trying to get rich innovation is going to suffer because there will be too many rugpulls and pump and dump issues both blatant and subtle. Plus the idea of holding a currency to wait to see if it gains value is self-defeating. But that's Bitcoin's only (legal) utility! Without people trying to get rich it would be nothing. Quote: My main problems with bitcoin are that (1) it inherently sucks as a currency and (2) it has a dominant position within the culture and as such cements the idea of a coin as an investment instead of a tool. I'm happy stopping at (1). Bitcoin sucks by design. It was created by libertarians for all the wrong reasons, so that it sucks is not surprising. Quote: My theory is that adoption of a cryptocurrency will never come from people trying to get a cryptocurrency adopted. It will be a sort of weird accident probably involving a game token. Except that won't happen, because game tokens are the opposite of what cryptocurrency is supposed to be. Quote: 15-20 years ago a ton of online commerce was being done via pokerstars transfers. It's not completely insane that it could have become a more and more dominant means of exchange. Pokerstars wasn't crypto or anything, but the idea of an ingame blockchain token for some huge game being used to buy out of game stuff and proving more useful and reliable than other currencies seems way more likely than it happening by a straight crypto coin launch meant to be currency. What problem that stopped it becoming a 'more and more dominant means of exchange' would crypto solve? I can't imagine such a 'currency' becoming a dominant means of exchange when it relies on the activities of online poke players. And if it doesn't, what makes it any different from other cryptos?
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

20th January 2023, 07:23 PM	#3183
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by wareyin Without a human authority to recognize the numbers in that wallet as anything at all, then they're nothing. Pure BS. Originally Posted by wareyin As you're applying it to an intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value, it's helpful to contrast it with things that actually exist in the world as physical things. What is this "intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value" you are referring to? It certainly isn't bitcoin. Originally Posted by wareyin Ah, I thought it was clear that the "it" that wasn't impressive is your claim of security, not the con game that is crypto. I know people are willing to pay for crypto. I pointed that out in the "bunch of rich suckers will forget all the crypto problems and start buying them again" phrase that got your knickers in a twist, remember? Meaningless drivel. No matter how many times you assert (without evidence) that bitcoin is a "con game" it will never be true.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

23rd January 2023, 01:11 AM	#3184
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,797	Originally Posted by The_Animus More or less the same thing as if I buy Euros. I can keep Euros as a store of value, though the value may change over time. I can spend Euros directly where they are accepted and where they are not I can convert Euros to another form of value that is accepted. Don”t forget you can also pay your taxes in EU countries in Euros.

23rd January 2023, 01:21 AM	#3185
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,797	Originally Posted by psionl0 I know from experience that dishonest posters like you will simply pretend that I never answered the question no matter what I post. But for the benefit of others, I will answer the question yet again. You get intellectual property. The difference is that instead of a human authority recognizing your right to this property, it is guaranteed by an algorithm and as long as nobody gets access to your wallet or private key, nobody can take the property away from you. Insult your opponents. That will definitely win you the argument. BTC is not intellectual property. Intellectual property is things like ideas and works of art. The idea of BTC is intellectual property, but not the actual coins. what you own with BTC is a number, or a line in a ledger, if you prefer. There’s nothing else. The algorithm guarantees you nothing. It’s other people who determine that this line in a ledger is worth something. Ask the people who bought Luna how much intellectual property they have.

23rd January 2023, 07:34 AM	#3186
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 Pure BS. Originally Posted by psionl0 What is this "intangible thing that only has value because other suckers think it has value" you are referring to? It certainly isn't bitcoin. Wait, you think bitcoin is tangible now? Originally Posted by psionl0 Meaningless drivel. No matter how many times you assert (without evidence) that bitcoin is a "con game" it will never be true. Dude, this is a backwater forum. Nobody here is going to buy into bitcoins because you refuse to accept their fraudulent nature (in writing).

23rd January 2023, 06:42 PM	#3187
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by wareyin Wait, you think bitcoin is tangible now? No I think that some idiots are desperately trying to say that bitcoin doesn't exist because it is not a physical substance. Originally Posted by wareyin Nobody here is going to buy into bitcoins because you refuse to accept their fraudulent nature (in writing). What "fraudulent nature (in writing)"? Have you got any proof that bitcoin itself is "fraudulent"?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th January 2023, 06:00 AM	#3188
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 No I think that some idiots are desperately trying to say that bitcoin doesn't exist because it is not a physical substance. That's a particularly odd way to interpret the straightforward responses to you. Why would you think anyone is saying that bitcoin doesn't exist? Especially those who've already said it exists as a way to scam the gullible out of real money? Originally Posted by psionl0 What "fraudulent nature (in writing)"? Have you got any proof that bitcoin itself is "fraudulent"? The "in writing" part refers to having been written on this forum, in particular in this thread. I'm sorry that was so confusing to you.

24th January 2023, 07:14 AM	#3189
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by wareyin That's a particularly odd way to interpret the straightforward responses to you. Why would you think anyone is saying that bitcoin doesn't exist? You are the one making a big noise about bitcoin being "intangible". It must be a big deal for you. Originally Posted by wareyin The "in writing" part refers to having been written on this forum, in particular in this thread. So, no evidence that bitcoin is "fraudulent". Just some people posting what you want to read.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

24th January 2023, 08:14 AM	#3190
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 You are the one making a big noise about bitcoin being "intangible". It must be a big deal for you. I think I see the problem. Did you believe that "intangible" means "doesn't exist"? If so, I urge you to crack open a dictionary. Originally Posted by psionl0 So, no evidence that bitcoin is "fraudulent". Just some people posting what you want to read. Why would I give one of the staunchest devotees of bitcoin evidence that he will creatively misinterpret? Who are the "some people" who are posting what I want to read, and where did you pull that out of?

24th January 2023, 08:22 PM	#3191
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Originally Posted by wareyin Why would I give one of the staunchest devotees of bitcoin evidence that he will creatively misinterpret? You wouldn't provide evidence for anybody because you have none. You are just making up BS or copying it from other posts in this forum. "Devotee of bitcoin" is just a desperate attempt to deflect from the fact that you know nothing.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

25th January 2023, 06:59 AM	#3192
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 You wouldn't provide evidence for anybody because you have none. You are just making up BS or copying it from other posts in this forum. "Devotee of bitcoin" is just a desperate attempt to deflect from the fact that you know nothing. I know that bitcoin is a con job foisted on the gullible, which is more than I can say for the staunch devotee (singular) who keeps trying to not only defend it, but convince other people to buy bitcoin with the outrageous claim of always earning more money. Actually, anyone assuring people of gains for buying bitcoin probably knows it's a con as well, but of course such a person would never admit such in writing.

25th January 2023, 07:05 AM	#3193
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 20,166	Give it up. You are no longer posting BS any more. You are just telling lies.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

25th January 2023, 07:34 AM	#3194
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by psionl0 Give it up. You are no longer posting BS any more. You are just telling lies. While I'm sure that this sounded to you like a compelling argument in your head, I'm not sure that it landed well in print. Why in the world do you feel the need for an explanation why BtC is a pump and dump scheme after all the recent discussion on wash trading anyway? It's not like there aren't tons of recent news articles about Bitcoin scams or even articles that call into question your claims about the security of bitcoin from being taken from an owner by government agencies.

25th January 2023, 11:05 AM	#3195
marting Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,763	Binance comes down hard on wash trading (aka self-trading). Binance moves to block a key market manipulation tactic that makes a token look more popular than it actually is https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...is/ar-AA16JgpF Quote: Binance is launching a new function Thursday to block a key market manipulation tactic, the cryptocurrency exchange announced Tuesday. ... Called the Self-Trade Prevention Function, it is aimed at clamping down on users or groups of users that trade with themselves to create the illusion of higher trading activity. Binance, the largest crypto exchange in the World taking tough action! Oh, wait. Maybe not so tough. Quote: The Self-Trade Prevention Function is optional, and won't impact those who choose not to use it. Gotta love self regulation.
marting Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,763	__________________ Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.