Dear Users… (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) Part 10 - Page 45

Wudang · 16th January 2023, 12:31 PM

Madness. I have 2 laptops and my daughter has one and I'm always hitting PgUp instead of Home etc as they're mapped differently on different machines. That's some if the worst design I've ever seen.

Trebuchet · 16th January 2023, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Upper right hand side. Between...

The Print Screen Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to add screenshots to patient charts.

The Delete Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to, ya know, delete things.

On the same line as all the function keys.

Above the backspace key.

The exact same size as the other keys, not recessed or otherwise a special or unique button that stands out in anyway.

And yes it literally turns the computer on/off the moment you touch it.

It is the only power button on the machine so it's not like we can disable it/remap it or something.

We ordered 12 of them for newbie physicians, head nurses, and other "higher midlevel" types for a new site we're standing up.

Wow. The one I'm on at the moment has it top right corner, which is fine.
What is that key 2nd from left on the top row? Because the icon on it looks similar to the one I was trying to describe in the fat-finger thread.

JoeMorgue · 16th January 2023, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

What is that key 2nd from left on the top row? Because the icon on it looks similar to the one I was trying to describe in the fat-finger thread.

Turns on and off external monitor output.

catsmate · 16th January 2023, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

To the HP Laptop designer that changed the power button to be a regular keyboard key.

Please, in no uncertain terms, go %$#@! yourself.

An unpleasantly common change.

Blue Mountain · 16th January 2023, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

To the HP Laptop designer that changed the power button to be a regular keyboard key.

Please, in no uncertain terms, go %$#@! yourself.

Yes, that a that's a massively stupid idea. Putting an otherwise normal button on the keyboard that can seriously affect your current workflow is insane.

Mind you, I hate most laptop keyboard layouts and always use a USB connected keyboard with a standard layout.

As for mitigations, is it possible to tweak Windows so that pressing that button at least pops up a dialogue box? I know Windows has an option for change what the power button does, but the options many be limited to sleep/hibernate/power off. There might be a registry hack or even third party software to help.

Blue Mountain · 16th January 2023, 03:55 PM

Also, putting the Insert key four buttons away from the Delete key?? In fact, with the Power Off button right beside the Delete key, where I might normally expect Insert to be, borders on criminal. Boy has HP gone downhill since the days of the 15C and 16C calculators (which, admittedly, was 40 years ago!)

Norman Alexander · 16th January 2023, 04:36 PM

HP laptops are made by a third party bulk factory and simply rebadged. As do most laptop vendors. So you can quite possibly find an almost the identical (insane) keyboard layout and functionality in some other brand, just with a different colour scheme and badge.

Blue Mountain · 16th January 2023, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

HP laptops are made by a third party bulk factory and simply rebadged. As do most laptop vendors. So you can quite possibly find an almost the identical (insane) keyboard layout and functionality in some other brand, just with a different colour scheme and badge.

That does not appear to be the case. Here's one reference I found among many:

Originally Posted by ponfish.com

Does HP make its own laptops?

Yes, HP does make its own laptops. However, the company has also been known to license the design and production of laptops from other manufacturers, such as Dell and Lenovo. HP’s laptop lineup currently includes the Spectre x360 series, Envy 15, Aspire 3, and the recently released Chromebook 13.

Where Does HP Build Its Laptops? [ponfish.com]

Norman Alexander · 16th January 2023, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

That does not appear to be the case. Here's one reference I found among many:

Where Does HP Build Its Laptops? [ponfish.com]

I would take that with a grain 9f salt. For example, it says HP spun off its PC business as HPE. Nope. HPE is the non PC stuff - Hewlett Packard Enterprise.

Darat · 17th January 2023, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Upper right hand side. Between...

The Print Screen Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to add screenshots to patient charts.

The Delete Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to, ya know, delete things.

On the same line as all the function keys.

Above the backspace key.

The exact same size as the other keys, not recessed or otherwise a special or unique button that stands out in anyway.

And yes it literally turns the computer on/off the moment you touch it.

It is the only power button on the machine so it's not like we can disable it/remap it or something.

We ordered 12 of them for newbie physicians, head nurses, and other "higher midlevel" types for a new site we're standing up.

Had a quick look and you should be able to alter what it does with a single click i.e. shutdown/sleep/hibernate - at least if it only puts it into sleep mode it will wake up quick and nothing will be lost. But yes that has to be one of the most stupid design decisions I've ever seen on a laptop.

zooterkin · 17th January 2023, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Upper right hand side. Between...

The Print Screen Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to add screenshots to patient charts.

The Delete Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to, ya know, delete things.

On the same line as all the function keys.

Above the backspace key.

The exact same size as the other keys, not recessed or otherwise a special or unique button that stands out in anyway.

And yes it literally turns the computer on/off the moment you touch it.

It is the only power button on the machine so it's not like we can disable it/remap it or something.

We ordered 12 of them for newbie physicians, head nurses, and other "higher midlevel" types for a new site we're standing up.

I’d say you had a case for returning them as unfit for purpose.

Wudang · 17th January 2023, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I’d say you had a case for returning them as unfit for purpose.

Seconded.

Also kill it with fire.

Norman Alexander · 17th January 2023, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Had a quick look and you should be able to alter what it does with a single click i.e. shutdown/sleep/hibernate - at least if it only puts it into sleep mode it will wake up quick and nothing will be lost. But yes that has to be one of the most stupid design decisions I've ever seen on a laptop.

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I’d say you had a case for returning them as unfit for purpose.

Originally Posted by Wudang

Seconded.

Also kill it with fire.

Thirded. And bury the ashes.

commandlinegamer · 17th January 2023, 04:34 AM

Not to mention the design from a few years ago which had another row of keys to the left of those normally at the extreme left. I've got one in at the moment, and the bottom-left key is not CTRL, but a calculator shortcut.

arthwollipot · 17th January 2023, 07:07 PM

Ugh.

I know our IVR system is not unclear. I know that because I recorded all of the voice prompts. What you're hearing when you dial our number is literally my voice. And it is very, very clear. We even have a "for all other IT issues, press 4" prompt and people still come through on the wrong line saying "I couldn't work out what number to press for my IT issue".

TragicMonkey · 17th January 2023, 09:12 PM

I was laughing about the power button thing then I realized I have no idea where the power button on my work laptop is. I kid you not it took me ten actual minutes to find it: it's a very slender silver button with a light on it, nestled top left of the keyboard in a groove that appears to be purely aesthetic in purpose. I'd never actually used it, I always power down by telling Windows to shut down, and power on again by hitting the power button on the docking station. It's HP also, but the only issue it has is overheating when the video camera is in use.

Norman Alexander · 17th January 2023, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I was laughing about the power button thing then I realized I have no idea where the power button on my work laptop is. I kid you not it took me ten actual minutes to find it: it's a very slender silver button with a light on it, nestled top left of the keyboard in a groove that appears to be purely aesthetic in purpose. I'd never actually used it, I always power down by telling Windows to shut down, and power on again by hitting the power button on the docking station. It's HP also, but the only issue it has is overheating when the video camera is in use.

What the heck are you filming??!

Wudang · 18th January 2023, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

What the heck are you filming??!

Think. Is this a question you want to be asking TM?
Ok now you got me curious. Let me just put my therapist on danger money.

Norman Alexander · 18th January 2023, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Think. Is this a question you want to be asking TM?
Ok now you got me curious. Let me just put my therapist on danger money.

I did think once.

Then twice.

Then I thought, what the heck!

TragicMonkey · 18th January 2023, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

What the heck are you filming??!

On my work laptop? Nothing interesting. My department is required to have our cameras on during Teams meetings, in order to "increase engagement". By which they mean they suspect us of goofing off during calls. But Microsoft Teams seems to be rather hardware-intense and seizes way more of the memory than you'd expect, and when the video is in use the fans kick on high and quite fail to do sufficient cooling: an hour on a video call gets one corner of the laptop significantly hot to the touch. I'm sure it's aging the machine rapidly but it's not my property and not my policy so I'll just have to get new laptops faster than should be necessary.

jeremyp · 18th January 2023, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

On my work laptop? Nothing interesting. My department is required to have our cameras on during Teams meetings, in order to "increase engagement". By which they mean they suspect us of goofing off during calls. But Microsoft Teams seems to be rather hardware-intense and seizes way more of the memory than you'd expect, and when the video is in use the fans kick on high and quite fail to do sufficient cooling: an hour on a video call gets one corner of the laptop significantly hot to the touch. I'm sure it's aging the machine rapidly but it's not my property and not my policy so I'll just have to get new laptops faster than should be necessary.

Microsoft Teams is the only application I've ever used on my MacBook Pro that causes the CPU to start throttling because it's overheated. Even games aren't as intensive as using Teams with an image for your background.

Norman Alexander · 18th January 2023, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

On my work laptop? Nothing interesting. My department is required to have our cameras on during Teams meetings, in order to "increase engagement". By which they mean they suspect us of goofing off during calls. But Microsoft Teams seems to be rather hardware-intense and seizes way more of the memory than you'd expect, and when the video is in use the fans kick on high and quite fail to do sufficient cooling: an hour on a video call gets one corner of the laptop significantly hot to the touch. I'm sure it's aging the machine rapidly but it's not my property and not my policy so I'll just have to get new laptops faster than should be necessary.

Technically, it is doing on-the-fly video compression to optimise your internet data transmission. It is turning your high quality webcam video into lower quality Teams video plus adding any fancy background effect. That's CPU-heavy work which burns lots of electrons which creates the heat.

If this is indeed harming your work laptop, use that to advantage. Cover the webcam lens with tape and say it burned out. So soz, no vid.

JoeMorgue · 18th January 2023, 01:41 PM

Dear Users,

1. I have zero, like literally zero, control over a 3rd party website implementing dual factor authentication. I don't care that it slows down your "workflow" (**** I hate that term so ******* much) and couldn't do anything about it if I did care. Which I don't.

2. You're in the medical field, so get used to that, it ain't going to less common no time soon.

TragicMonkey · 18th January 2023, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Technically, it is doing on-the-fly video compression to optimise your internet data transmission. It is turning your high quality webcam video into lower quality Teams video plus adding any fancy background effect. That's CPU-heavy work which burns lots of electrons which creates the heat.

If this is indeed harming your work laptop, use that to advantage. Cover the webcam lens with tape and say it burned out. So soz, no vid.

Interesting. So not using a background effect causes less work to be done? I haven't been using any-- I'm rather proud of my stately living room with its elegant proportions and tasteful artwork (painted by me) so I've been letting the camera show as-is, where most of my coworkers use the Teams silly backgrounds of space planets or fake offices. (I'm not saying you live in filth, Kathy, I'm just saying that by hiding your background you're not proving anyone wrong).

But if the camera busts then they'd just issue me a new laptop. The sillier the policy, the more firmly my company adheres to it. Make a mistake and kill a few patients? Never mind, accidents happen! Wear open-toed sandals where you're not allowed to? Official write-up and firing if repeated. (Not that I've done either of those things myself, although I would be much more likely to murder a ton of people than I would be to wear sandals when not in walking distance of a beach.)

TragicMonkey · 18th January 2023, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I don't care that it slows down your "workflow" (**** I hate that term so ******* much)

"Workflow" always puts me in mind of digestion. With the person's finished work being the usual end product of that process.

Norman Alexander · 21st January 2023, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Interesting. So not using a background effect causes less work to be done?

Yep. A bit less.

Quote:

I haven't been using any-- I'm rather proud of my stately living room with its elegant proportions and tasteful artwork (painted by me) so I've been letting the camera show as-is, where most of my coworkers use the Teams silly backgrounds of space planets or fake offices. (I'm not saying you live in filth, Kathy, I'm just saying that by hiding your background you're not proving anyone wrong).

Our house always looks like "life lived at full tide" - a beachcomber's sorting bench and exploded laundry basket in an unpainted hovel. My usual WFH-wear is my favourite builder's hi-viz hoodie (because it is comfy and warm). Combined, they are not exactly the best look for business meetings.

Quote:

But if the camera busts then they'd just issue me a new laptop. The sillier the policy, the more firmly my company adheres to it. Make a mistake and kill a few patients? Never mind, accidents happen! Wear open-toed sandals where you're not allowed to? Official write-up and firing if repeated. (Not that I've done either of those things myself, although I would be much more likely to murder a ton of people than I would be to wear sandals when not in walking distance of a beach.)

Proactive failure mode required. Just screw up their meetings a few times. Toggle between video on & sound off, or video off & sound on. Never both on. Then they get either a productive monkey, or video of you gesticulating silently in a Vogue living room. One is useful. The other is, frankly, slightly disturbing...

arthwollipot · 25th January 2023, 12:35 AM

Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing.

alfaniner · 25th January 2023, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing.

I don't think I have much in the cloud, maybe just my 3D print designs (which I keep copies of locally.) I just don't trust anything being offsite.

Norman Alexander · 25th January 2023, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing.

We are just in the process of taking this up. GREAT advertising!

JoeMorgue · 25th January 2023, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing.

Yeeep. I'm having a fun morning.

Filippo Lippi · 25th January 2023, 06:47 AM

Made the headline news on the Beeb that Microsoft are backing it out

novaphile · 25th January 2023, 05:23 PM

Another reason why I've retired.

The concept that it is a good idea to put all your data and systems into the hands of another organisation that cares four fifths of **** all about your organisation is just mind boggling.

Not to mention that it's another country that is famous for attacking other countries for their resources.

Hey Microsoft! Turn off Australia, they're not selling oil and gas to us at the price we want.

TragicMonkey · 27th January 2023, 09:40 AM

Well, this is fun: soon we'll need an authenticator to authenticate the authenticator we currently use. I foresee no possible problems, complications, or absurdity with this.

Norman Alexander · 27th January 2023, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Well, this is fun: soon we'll need an authenticator to authenticate the authenticator we currently use. I foresee no possible problems, complications, or absurdity with this.

Somebody needs a made-up job. Is this the boss's favourite child turning 18 and leaving school?

arthwollipot · 30th January 2023, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

The concept that it is a good idea to put all your data and systems into the hands of another organisation that cares four fifths of **** all about your organisation is just mind boggling.

It's just the old "thin client" model from the late 90s redone. And to be fair, it mostly works very well indeed. But when it breaks, it affects everyone, which the old on-prem Office model did not.

Norman Alexander · 30th January 2023, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It's just the old "thin client" model from the late 90s redone. And to be fair, it mostly works very well indeed. But when it breaks, it affects everyone, which the old on-prem Office model did not.

You can calculate a very rough but eye-opening comparative cost of this outage.

Outage_cost = Number_of_staff_affected * hourly_rate * hours_outage

In a big organisation, you get, say 200 staff at $100/hr average out for 2 hours = $40,000

So once again, how much is the difference between M365 and on-prem licensing??

arthwollipot · 30th January 2023, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

So once again, how much is the difference between M365 and on-prem licensing??

That question is waaay above my pay grade.

Anyway, you also have to figure in percentage downtime, which is much lower now than it used to be before we upgraded. Outages used to be pretty common when we had all our data stored on local file servers. Now, on Sharepoint and OneDrive, they're hen's teeth.

I've said it before - when your entire business model is built around providing online access to data, when that stops your business has a very good motivation to get it working again ASAP.

Norman Alexander · 30th January 2023, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

That question is waaay above my pay grade.

Anyway, you also have to figure in percentage downtime, which is much lower now than it used to be before we upgraded. Outages used to be pretty common when we had all our data stored on local file servers. Now, on Sharepoint and OneDrive, they're hen's teeth.

I've said it before - when your entire business model is built around providing online access to data, when that stops your business has a very good motivation to get it working again ASAP.

That's fine, unless your online service MUST be 24x7x365 such as a hospital. Which is what I support. Having patient-critical data and applications "offline" for even a few minutes is simply not acceptable.

"Never down" local storage and services are what we support. Ours has been non-stop since 2008. That's 100% uptime for 15 years, including replacing every server with newer models and adding a petabyte of high-performance SAN storage.

Meanwhile, we have been migrating admin services to cloud, and...bingo. Outage on Azure, M365, and Teams, which underpin some of our critical administrative services. Questions are going to be asked at the ministerial level, apparently.

Wudang · 30th January 2023, 03:11 AM

I'm more used to company owned data centres with IBM and HSBC. I worked with the NHS UK and again they needed their own systems. The company I worked for used AWS to develop systems for the NHS as AWS was approved by the NHS for data storage and processing and we could shrink and grow our estate as needed. With our tiny budget the ability to switch off a few server instances and stop being charged for them made a massive difference to the bottom line.
On the other hand the HSBC data centre I worked at had a business case to have 2 separate connections to the electric grid so the chances of losing all power was negligible. On the other other hand the data centre at what was then IBM UK HQ used to lose power as they used water from the lake it was beside to cool the computer rooms and a local nutter kept throwing big sheets of polythene near the inlets to block them. It made the local pub landlords happy at least.
For business critical though I'd always recall the old rule about involved versus committed.

arthwollipot · 30th January 2023, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

That's fine, unless your online service MUST be 24x7x365 such as a hospital. Which is what I support. Having patient-critical data and applications "offline" for even a few minutes is simply not acceptable.

Sure. That's very much not the usual situation, though. The vast majority of clients of Microsoft's cloud solutions are not like that.

This particular outage occurred just as I was finishing my last day before a 4-day weekend, so I never found out how long it lasted. I'd be pretty surprised if it was more than an hour. During a non-peak time when almost nobody was using it. That amount of sloppiness is more than acceptable when as I say the downtime is exceptionally rare compared to the old system.

16th January 2023, 12:31 PM	#1761
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,453	Madness. I have 2 laptops and my daughter has one and I'm always hitting PgUp instead of Home etc as they're mapped differently on different machines. That's some if the worst design I've ever seen.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

16th January 2023, 12:49 PM	#1762
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,544	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Upper right hand side. Between... The Print Screen Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to add screenshots to patient charts. The Delete Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to, ya know, delete things. On the same line as all the function keys. Above the backspace key. The exact same size as the other keys, not recessed or otherwise a special or unique button that stands out in anyway. And yes it literally turns the computer on/off the moment you touch it. It is the only power button on the machine so it's not like we can disable it/remap it or something. We ordered 12 of them for newbie physicians, head nurses, and other "higher midlevel" types for a new site we're standing up. Wow. The one I'm on at the moment has it top right corner, which is fine. What is that key 2nd from left on the top row? Because the icon on it looks similar to the one I was trying to describe in the fat-finger thread.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. Last edited by zooterkin; 17th January 2023 at 01:07 AM. Reason: Large image

16th January 2023, 12:52 PM	#1763
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,144	Originally Posted by Trebuchet What is that key 2nd from left on the top row? Because the icon on it looks similar to the one I was trying to describe in the fat-finger thread. Turns on and off external monitor output.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

16th January 2023, 01:07 PM	#1764
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,617	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue To the HP Laptop designer that changed the power button to be a regular keyboard key. Please, in no uncertain terms, go %$#@! yourself. An unpleasantly common change.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

16th January 2023, 03:48 PM	#1765
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,340	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue To the HP Laptop designer that changed the power button to be a regular keyboard key. Please, in no uncertain terms, go %$#@! yourself. Yes, that a that's a massively stupid idea. Putting an otherwise normal button on the keyboard that can seriously affect your current workflow is insane. Mind you, I hate most laptop keyboard layouts and always use a USB connected keyboard with a standard layout. As for mitigations, is it possible to tweak Windows so that pressing that button at least pops up a dialogue box? I know Windows has an option for change what the power button does, but the options many be limited to sleep/hibernate/power off. There might be a registry hack or even third party software to help.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

16th January 2023, 03:55 PM	#1766
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,340	Also, putting the Insert key four buttons away from the Delete key?? In fact, with the Power Off button right beside the Delete key, where I might normally expect Insert to be, borders on criminal. Boy has HP gone downhill since the days of the 15C and 16C calculators (which, admittedly, was 40 years ago!)
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

16th January 2023, 04:36 PM	#1767
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	HP laptops are made by a third party bulk factory and simply rebadged. As do most laptop vendors. So you can quite possibly find an almost the identical (insane) keyboard layout and functionality in some other brand, just with a different colour scheme and badge.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

16th January 2023, 11:08 PM	#1768
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,340	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander HP laptops are made by a third party bulk factory and simply rebadged. As do most laptop vendors. So you can quite possibly find an almost the identical (insane) keyboard layout and functionality in some other brand, just with a different colour scheme and badge. That does not appear to be the case. Here's one reference I found among many: Originally Posted by ponfish.com Does HP make its own laptops? Yes, HP does make its own laptops. However, the company has also been known to license the design and production of laptops from other manufacturers, such as Dell and Lenovo. HP’s laptop lineup currently includes the Spectre x360 series, Envy 15, Aspire 3, and the recently released Chromebook 13. Where Does HP Build Its Laptops? [ponfish.com]
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

16th January 2023, 11:24 PM	#1769
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain That does not appear to be the case. Here's one reference I found among many: Where Does HP Build Its Laptops? [ponfish.com] I would take that with a grain 9f salt. For example, it says HP spun off its PC business as HPE. Nope. HPE is the non PC stuff - Hewlett Packard Enterprise.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th January 2023, 02:30 AM	#1770
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,646	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Upper right hand side. Between... The Print Screen Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to add screenshots to patient charts. The Delete Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to, ya know, delete things. On the same line as all the function keys. Above the backspace key. The exact same size as the other keys, not recessed or otherwise a special or unique button that stands out in anyway. And yes it literally turns the computer on/off the moment you touch it. It is the only power button on the machine so it's not like we can disable it/remap it or something. We ordered 12 of them for newbie physicians, head nurses, and other "higher midlevel" types for a new site we're standing up. Had a quick look and you should be able to alter what it does with a single click i.e. shutdown/sleep/hibernate - at least if it only puts it into sleep mode it will wake up quick and nothing will be lost. But yes that has to be one of the most stupid design decisions I've ever seen on a laptop.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th January 2023, 03:06 AM	#1771
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 55,835	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Upper right hand side. Between... The Print Screen Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to add screenshots to patient charts. The Delete Key: Which the Doctors use all the time to, ya know, delete things. On the same line as all the function keys. Above the backspace key. The exact same size as the other keys, not recessed or otherwise a special or unique button that stands out in anyway. And yes it literally turns the computer on/off the moment you touch it. It is the only power button on the machine so it's not like we can disable it/remap it or something. We ordered 12 of them for newbie physicians, head nurses, and other "higher midlevel" types for a new site we're standing up. I’d say you had a case for returning them as unfit for purpose.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

17th January 2023, 03:18 AM	#1772
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,453	Originally Posted by zooterkin I’d say you had a case for returning them as unfit for purpose. Seconded. Also kill it with fire.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

17th January 2023, 04:08 AM	#1773
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by Darat Had a quick look and you should be able to alter what it does with a single click i.e. shutdown/sleep/hibernate - at least if it only puts it into sleep mode it will wake up quick and nothing will be lost. But yes that has to be one of the most stupid design decisions I've ever seen on a laptop. Originally Posted by zooterkin I’d say you had a case for returning them as unfit for purpose. Originally Posted by Wudang Seconded. Also kill it with fire. Thirded. And bury the ashes.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th January 2023, 04:34 AM	#1774
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 9,321	Not to mention the design from a few years ago which had another row of keys to the left of those normally at the extreme left. I've got one in at the moment, and the bottom-left key is not CTRL, but a calculator shortcut.
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.

17th January 2023, 07:07 PM	#1775
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,132	Ugh. I know our IVR system is not unclear. I know that because I recorded all of the voice prompts. What you're hearing when you dial our number is literally my voice. And it is very, very clear. We even have a "for all other IT issues, press 4" prompt and people still come through on the wrong line saying "I couldn't work out what number to press for my IT issue".
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17th January 2023, 09:12 PM	#1776
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,043	I was laughing about the power button thing then I realized I have no idea where the power button on my work laptop is. I kid you not it took me ten actual minutes to find it: it's a very slender silver button with a light on it, nestled top left of the keyboard in a groove that appears to be purely aesthetic in purpose. I'd never actually used it, I always power down by telling Windows to shut down, and power on again by hitting the power button on the docking station. It's HP also, but the only issue it has is overheating when the video camera is in use.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

17th January 2023, 10:24 PM	#1777
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I was laughing about the power button thing then I realized I have no idea where the power button on my work laptop is. I kid you not it took me ten actual minutes to find it: it's a very slender silver button with a light on it, nestled top left of the keyboard in a groove that appears to be purely aesthetic in purpose. I'd never actually used it, I always power down by telling Windows to shut down, and power on again by hitting the power button on the docking station. It's HP also, but the only issue it has is overheating when the video camera is in use. What the heck are you filming??!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

18th January 2023, 04:21 AM	#1778
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,453	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander What the heck are you filming??! Think. Is this a question you want to be asking TM? Ok now you got me curious. Let me just put my therapist on danger money.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

18th January 2023, 05:15 AM	#1779
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by Wudang Think. Is this a question you want to be asking TM? Ok now you got me curious. Let me just put my therapist on danger money. I did think once. Then twice. Then I thought, what the heck!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

18th January 2023, 06:04 AM	#1780
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,043	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander What the heck are you filming??! On my work laptop? Nothing interesting. My department is required to have our cameras on during Teams meetings, in order to "increase engagement". By which they mean they suspect us of goofing off during calls. But Microsoft Teams seems to be rather hardware-intense and seizes way more of the memory than you'd expect, and when the video is in use the fans kick on high and quite fail to do sufficient cooling: an hour on a video call gets one corner of the laptop significantly hot to the touch. I'm sure it's aging the machine rapidly but it's not my property and not my policy so I'll just have to get new laptops faster than should be necessary.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

18th January 2023, 07:28 AM	#1781
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey On my work laptop? Nothing interesting. My department is required to have our cameras on during Teams meetings, in order to "increase engagement". By which they mean they suspect us of goofing off during calls. But Microsoft Teams seems to be rather hardware-intense and seizes way more of the memory than you'd expect, and when the video is in use the fans kick on high and quite fail to do sufficient cooling: an hour on a video call gets one corner of the laptop significantly hot to the touch. I'm sure it's aging the machine rapidly but it's not my property and not my policy so I'll just have to get new laptops faster than should be necessary. Microsoft Teams is the only application I've ever used on my MacBook Pro that causes the CPU to start throttling because it's overheated. Even games aren't as intensive as using Teams with an image for your background.

18th January 2023, 01:24 PM	#1782
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey On my work laptop? Nothing interesting. My department is required to have our cameras on during Teams meetings, in order to "increase engagement". By which they mean they suspect us of goofing off during calls. But Microsoft Teams seems to be rather hardware-intense and seizes way more of the memory than you'd expect, and when the video is in use the fans kick on high and quite fail to do sufficient cooling: an hour on a video call gets one corner of the laptop significantly hot to the touch. I'm sure it's aging the machine rapidly but it's not my property and not my policy so I'll just have to get new laptops faster than should be necessary. Technically, it is doing on-the-fly video compression to optimise your internet data transmission. It is turning your high quality webcam video into lower quality Teams video plus adding any fancy background effect. That's CPU-heavy work which burns lots of electrons which creates the heat. If this is indeed harming your work laptop, use that to advantage. Cover the webcam lens with tape and say it burned out. So soz, no vid.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

18th January 2023, 01:41 PM	#1783
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,144	Dear Users, 1. I have zero, like literally zero, control over a 3rd party website implementing dual factor authentication. I don't care that it slows down your "workflow" (** I hate that term so ***** much) and couldn't do anything about it if I did care. Which I don't. 2. You're in the medical field, so get used to that, it ain't going to less common no time soon.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

18th January 2023, 02:19 PM	#1784
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,043	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Technically, it is doing on-the-fly video compression to optimise your internet data transmission. It is turning your high quality webcam video into lower quality Teams video plus adding any fancy background effect. That's CPU-heavy work which burns lots of electrons which creates the heat. If this is indeed harming your work laptop, use that to advantage. Cover the webcam lens with tape and say it burned out. So soz, no vid. Interesting. So not using a background effect causes less work to be done? I haven't been using any-- I'm rather proud of my stately living room with its elegant proportions and tasteful artwork (painted by me) so I've been letting the camera show as-is, where most of my coworkers use the Teams silly backgrounds of space planets or fake offices. (I'm not saying you live in filth, Kathy, I'm just saying that by hiding your background you're not proving anyone wrong). But if the camera busts then they'd just issue me a new laptop. The sillier the policy, the more firmly my company adheres to it. Make a mistake and kill a few patients? Never mind, accidents happen! Wear open-toed sandals where you're not allowed to? Official write-up and firing if repeated. (Not that I've done either of those things myself, although I would be much more likely to murder a ton of people than I would be to wear sandals when not in walking distance of a beach.)
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

18th January 2023, 02:20 PM	#1785
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,043	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I don't care that it slows down your "workflow" (** I hate that term so ***** much) "Workflow" always puts me in mind of digestion. With the person's finished work being the usual end product of that process.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st January 2023, 11:52 AM	#1786
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Interesting. So not using a background effect causes less work to be done? Yep. A bit less. Quote: I haven't been using any-- I'm rather proud of my stately living room with its elegant proportions and tasteful artwork (painted by me) so I've been letting the camera show as-is, where most of my coworkers use the Teams silly backgrounds of space planets or fake offices. (I'm not saying you live in filth, Kathy, I'm just saying that by hiding your background you're not proving anyone wrong). Our house always looks like "life lived at full tide" - a beachcomber's sorting bench and exploded laundry basket in an unpainted hovel. My usual WFH-wear is my favourite builder's hi-viz hoodie (because it is comfy and warm). Combined, they are not exactly the best look for business meetings. Quote: But if the camera busts then they'd just issue me a new laptop. The sillier the policy, the more firmly my company adheres to it. Make a mistake and kill a few patients? Never mind, accidents happen! Wear open-toed sandals where you're not allowed to? Official write-up and firing if repeated. (Not that I've done either of those things myself, although I would be much more likely to murder a ton of people than I would be to wear sandals when not in walking distance of a beach.) Proactive failure mode required. Just screw up their meetings a few times. Toggle between video on & sound off, or video off & sound on. Never both on. Then they get either a productive monkey, or video of you gesticulating silently in a Vogue living room. One is useful. The other is, frankly, slightly disturbing...
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 21st January 2023 at 11:54 AM.

25th January 2023, 12:35 AM	#1787
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,132	Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing.
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25th January 2023, 05:50 AM	#1788
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 27,905	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing. I don't think I have much in the cloud, maybe just my 3D print designs (which I keep copies of locally.) I just don't trust anything being offsite.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

25th January 2023, 06:27 AM	#1789
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing. We are just in the process of taking this up. GREAT advertising!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

25th January 2023, 06:44 AM	#1790
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,144	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Oh boy! A whole lot of Microsoft Office 365 cloud stuff is down. Perfect timing. Yeeep. I'm having a fun morning.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

25th January 2023, 06:47 AM	#1791
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4,377	Made the headline news on the Beeb that Microsoft are backing it out
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

25th January 2023, 05:23 PM	#1792
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 4,949	Another reason why I've retired. The concept that it is a good idea to put all your data and systems into the hands of another organisation that cares four fifths of **** all about your organisation is just mind boggling. Not to mention that it's another country that is famous for attacking other countries for their resources. Hey Microsoft! Turn off Australia, they're not selling oil and gas to us at the price we want.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

27th January 2023, 09:40 AM	#1793
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,043	Well, this is fun: soon we'll need an authenticator to authenticate the authenticator we currently use. I foresee no possible problems, complications, or absurdity with this.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

27th January 2023, 01:38 PM	#1794
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,992	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Well, this is fun: soon we'll need an authenticator to authenticate the authenticator we currently use. I foresee no possible problems, complications, or absurdity with this. Somebody needs a made-up job. Is this the boss's favourite child turning 18 and leaving school?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

30th January 2023, 12:15 AM	#1795
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,132	Originally Posted by novaphile The concept that it is a good idea to put all your data and systems into the hands of another organisation that cares four fifths of **** all about your organisation is just mind boggling. It's just the old "thin client" model from the late 90s redone. And to be fair, it mostly works very well indeed. But when it breaks, it affects everyone, which the old on-prem Office model did not.
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