Dear Users… (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) Part 10 - Page 53

TragicMonkey · 20th March 2023, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Agreed. I've spent too much time having to parse multi-purpose free text fields that should have been separate fields.

Heh. Years ago I had to do a particularly horrible export of data. It took hours to run because 90% of the processing power was removing unnecessary whitespace from very large text fields. Users felt free to tab, space, and enter all over those fields. Didn't even bother trying to remove the asterisks, dashes, underscores, and other characters some would sometimes enter to "make pretty lines" in there. It was a horrible mess.

Filippo Lippi · 20th March 2023, 09:32 AM

Tomorrow morning I have to run that application that is known by three letters that are also my initials. There's a big post-it in the middle of my desk that I wrote that confuses me momentarily every time I glance at it. I can't even write down the full na of the application because no one can remember what the three letters stand for. Ffs.

JoeMorgue · 21st March 2023, 05:35 AM

The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword.

You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name.

What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first?

The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't.

Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name.

TragicMonkey · 21st March 2023, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword.

You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name.

What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first?

The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't.

Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name.

Or anybody could have any name whatsoever, because we'd actually run everything behind the scenes off unique ID numbers. She may be Katyleigh-Bryttanee Melissa Khaleesi Jones-S'mith to her friends, but to me she's just ole' 293084917309. Hell, she could stick some emojis in there, it's just a display field.

Darat · 21st March 2023, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword.

You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name.

What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first?

The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't.

Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name.

Asimov once tongue-in-cheek argued that if we want truly individual names we should all have a unique number.

Also I have in the past wanted to commit genocide against the good Sinhalese people for their very long and strangely structured names! That was back in the day when every bit and byte mattered so someone suddenly wanting "extra" characters? Or even worse have a family name and a surname as well as a first name..... !!!

Wudang · 21st March 2023, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword.

You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name.

What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first?

The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't.

Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name.

Not really. It just needs programmers who understand what they're working with. The directory at the bank I worked at coped fine with Spanish two part family names, people with Chinese names who'd also adopted "western" names etc. Internationalisation in data, especially user data, has been a thing for several decades.
It's important when we want to tie people's records together. Or when people forget their unique id etc.

TragicMonkey · 21st March 2023, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

Not really. It just needs programmers who understand what they're working with. The directory at the bank I worked at coped fine with Spanish two part family names, people with Chinese names who'd also adopted "western" names etc. Internationalisation in data, especially user data, has been a thing for several decades.
It's important when we want to tie people's records together. Or when people forget their unique id etc.

I guess I'd have one field for the full name, in the order it's normally put. Then several separate fields for name elements, each with a number. Then another field that stores what order those name element fields are supposed to go. Maybe a couple of fields like that, representing the order to put the name elements for official use, for direct address, etc. And of course title fields, suffix fields, etc.

Mashuna · 21st March 2023, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Asimov once tongue-in-cheek argued that if we want truly individual names we should all have a unique number.

Also I have in the past wanted to commit genocide against the good Sinhalese people for their very long and strangely structured names! That was back in the day when every bit and byte mattered so someone suddenly wanting "extra" characters? Or even worse have a family name and a surname as well as a first name..... !!!

I've had the opposite problem, trying to perform fuzzy matching on surnames becomes very problematic when there's a large Chinese population with two-letter surname fields.

xterra · 21st March 2023, 08:50 AM

Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names | Kalzumeus Software

I may have linked this previously. It's worth linking again.

Wudang · 21st March 2023, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I guess I'd have one field for the full name, in the order it's normally put. Then several separate fields for name elements, each with a number. Then another field that stores what order those name element fields are supposed to go. Maybe a couple of fields like that, representing the order to put the name elements for official use, for direct address, etc. And of course title fields, suffix fields, etc.

You might also need multiple surnames. My pal's surname in most DBs is Kusners. He spells it Kušners so you need to allow for other codesets. People get married, change names, family names in Gaelic regions can be spelled one way in family but be spelled in an Anglicized form officially. My middle name for example can be Donald or Dòmhnall.
For official use the "normal" format of <family name> comma <other names> seems to work well especially as it disambiguates Chinese names where some keep the family name first form and others adopt western form.
You can probably visualize the schema.
One workaround is to separate a "person" id representing an actual person then have that link to various other records. For example, the person is Ho, Gah Wing. This can link to a "pupil" record which records that a "Ho, John GW" attended school Madeup High from 2001 to 2003.
It's not a problem a competent software engineer shouldn't be able to find a lot of information on readily.

Wudang · 21st March 2023, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by xterra

Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names | Kalzumeus Software

I may have linked this previously. It's worth linking again.

Very much so. I recall passing this round work a few years ago.

jeremyp · 21st March 2023, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword.

You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name.

What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name?

You either embrace the multitude of names with a repeating field, limit them to only putting two of their names or just have one big field in which to put the name in the order in which they would normally expect to see it written/said.

Quote:

Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first?

Use "given name" and "family name" or just have one big field in which to put the name in the order in which they would normally expect to see it written/said.

Quote:

The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't.

Frequently you don't really care how the field is structured. You are only recording it for the purposes of communicating back to the person filling it in. The address is the one that causes me the most PTSD. Even limiting yourself to just the UK, there are many variants of the address format. When I was doing some work for the organisation that handled many planning applications in England, they gave me a specification for the address that was two pages of XML schema and it was still broken. All you need is street address (not limited to 35 characters please, UK planning authorities), post code and some free text lines in between, which can now be filled in by doing a post code lookup (couldn't back then though).

Also, assuming the word "number" in "phone number" means you need to store it in a numeric field. My phone number, by the way, is 7.88e+09

jeremyp · 21st March 2023, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

You might also need multiple surnames. My pal's surname in most DBs is Kusners. He spells it Kušners so you need to allow for other codesets. People get married, change names, family names in Gaelic regions can be spelled one way in family but be spelled in an Anglicized form officially. My middle name for example can be Donald or Dòmhnall.

What encoding do you need other than UTF-8? There has been no excuse for not handling non US-ASCII characters for thirty years.

Wudang · 21st March 2023, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

What encoding do you need other than UTF-8? There has been no excuse for not handling non US-ASCII characters for thirty years.

You need to be aware of source encodings like what a user enters or the data is sent to you, in mainframe land you need to understand EBCDIC codesets (maybe, is there a proper solution now?).

TragicMonkey · 21st March 2023, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

The address is the one that causes me the most PTSD.

Ugh. Flashbacks to years ago when I worked with a particularly stupid application that would not accept anything other than a 5 digit numeric ZIP code. We did business with Canada, which uses six digits alternating alphabetical and numeric.

jimbob · 21st March 2023, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword.

You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name.

What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first?

The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't.

Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name.

I have an Indian colleague who only has one name. Many systems fail to work for him as a result

Trebuchet · 21st March 2023, 10:25 AM

Mononyms are common in Indonesia. I had a coworker at Boeing who basically had to make up another name.

JoeMorgue · 21st March 2023, 10:29 AM

Computer hardware manufactures. Naming no names but it rhymes with Mewlit Mackard.

How the everloving hell do you actually manage to screw up something as simple as a Power LED. When the computer is off it off, when the computer is on it glows.

But no. You mental patients now have the only LED on the front of your Mini-PCs be "conceptual" sometimes it means it's on, sometimes it means an error code, sometimes it's... hell if know the price of tea in China in Morse Code.

TragicMonkey · 21st March 2023, 10:39 AM

Speaking of lights, the docking station I use for my work laptop has an LED that blinks when the laptop is sleeping...but by "blink" I mean "stays on for thirty seconds then sloooowly fades out, then fades back in and holds on for thirty seconds". So if I'm passing by and want to make sure the thing's asleep and hasn't been jostled awake I have to stand there and watch the light for at least half a minute.

JoeMorgue · 21st March 2023, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Speaking of lights, the docking station I use for my work laptop has an LED that blinks when the laptop is sleeping...but by "blink" I mean "stays on for thirty seconds then sloooowly fades out, then fades back in and holds on for thirty seconds". So if I'm passing by and want to make sure the thing's asleep and hasn't been jostled awake I have to stand there and watch the light for at least half a minute.

//Total Hijack//

I can't remember the exact car but Doug Demuro reviewed a Luxury SUV with one of the worst design features. When you get out of the car the headlights stay on for 30 seconds or so to illuminate your path, that's normal most cars have that these days, but on this car the BACKUP lights also came on so you park your car, get out, and for 30 seconds it looks like you're going to back up.

zooterkin · 21st March 2023, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I guess I'd have one field for the full name, in the order it's normally put. Then several separate fields for name elements, each with a number. Then another field that stores what order those name element fields are supposed to go. Maybe a couple of fields like that, representing the order to put the name elements for official use, for direct address, etc. And of course title fields, suffix fields, etc.

You're giving me flashbacks to when I worked on an email server that used X.400 standards, where there were multiple fields for names for each user (forenames, family name, generation, etc.), and both an ASCII (or possibly ISO 8859) and Unicode version of each one, and for any one user, they might have neither, one or both versions of each field configured for their account, and when they logged in they might specify a mix of the ASCII or Unicode versions, and I had to find the correct account...

TragicMonkey · 21st March 2023, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

You're giving me flashbacks to when I worked on an email server that used X.400 standards, where there were multiple fields for names for each user (forenames, family name, generation, etc.), and both an ASCII (or possibly ISO 8859) and Unicode version of each one, and for any one user, they might have neither, one or both versions of each field configured for their account, and when they logged in they might specify a mix of the ASCII or Unicode versions, and I had to find the correct account...

Well obviously there should have been a coalesce somewhere to grab the contents of those fields in order of priority.

I admit I only just started using coalesce last year and now I can't stop, I love it so much!

Blue Mountain · 21st March 2023, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Ugh. Flashbacks to years ago when I worked with a particularly stupid application that would not accept anything other than a 5 digit numeric ZIP code. We did business with Canada, which uses six digits alternating alphabetical and numeric.

Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal codes?

TragicMonkey · 21st March 2023, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal code?

I think it's clear from context what I meant. It would have been confusing to say "alternating alphanumerics" when half are alpha and half numeric. "Character" sounded too vague. But thanks so much for your criticism of my word choices, I look forward to basking in the brilliancy of your undoubtedly perfect posts.

novaphile · 21st March 2023, 02:45 PM

Hey, if your systems don't have a 'name type' field, you're probably doing it wrong.

Just of the top of my head:

Maiden name, married name, alias, graffiti tag, preferred name, religious name, public name, private name, nickname, formal name, psuedonym/nom de plume...

For an example, if your system deals with Thai people, depending on context, you may always deal with them by their public name, or their private name.

And, again depending on nature of your system, you may have to deal with pre and post nominals.

Addresses can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned.

But like names, my last system also had to deal with 'address type' and the varying 'address format' that comes with each type.

Think of 'location' and method for contacting this person/organisation for every kind of 'address' you can imagine.

Norman Alexander · 21st March 2023, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal codes?

Clearly you haven't used hexadecimal.

TragicMonkey · 21st March 2023, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

Hey, if your systems don't have a 'name type' field, you're probably doing it wrong.

Just of the top of my head:

Maiden name, married name, alias, graffiti tag, preferred name, religious name, public name, private name, nickname, formal name, psuedonym/nom de plume...

For an example, if your system deals with Thai people, depending on context, you may always deal with them by their public name, or their private name.

And, again depending on nature of your system, you may have to deal with pre and post nominals.

"Thanks for the report, but one question: did you accidentally pull the 'stripper name' field?"
"No, I meant to include that one."
"Okaaaay. Well, thanks, Mike."
"Please call me 'Vanilla Beef'."

Gord_in_Toronto · 21st March 2023, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal codes?

Don't be so pedantic, Blue. You know very well that you are often asked to enter "the first three digits of your Postal Code" in all sorts of on-line forms here in the Great White North. I get rejected when I try. There are other sites that ask you to enter your "FSA". I had to Google that when I was first asked. It's certainly not part of our common nomenclature.

Back when the Internet was young I got an error when trying to enter my Postal Code in a form on a site of a Big US Corporation (it had already accepted that I was in Canada). When I protested to Support they eventually connected me by phone with a staff programmer somewhere in the US and he was quite happy to listen and fix the issue. This was in the days before the useless chatbots supposedly "answer" all questions.

Norman Alexander · 21st March 2023, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

"Thanks for the report, but one question: did you accidentally pull the 'stripper name' field?"
"No, I meant to include that one."
"Okaaaay. Well, thanks, Mike."
"Please call me 'Vanilla Beef'."

Thinks it is possible to derive their Porn Name from their other details?

Blue Mountain · 21st March 2023, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I think it's clear from context what I meant. It would have been confusing to say "alternating alphanumerics" when half are alpha and half numeric ...

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Clearly you haven't used hexadecimal.

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Don't be so pedantic, Blue. ...

Grrr. I knew I should have put a smiley at the end of that line.

Wudang · 22nd March 2023, 03:37 AM

I would never have imagined how complex addresses could be until.i started working with the damned things.

Gord_in_Toronto · 22nd March 2023, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Grrr. I knew I should have put a smiley at the end of that line.

That would not have stopped me from posting!!

novaphile · 22nd March 2023, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

I would never have imagined how complex addresses could be until.i started working with the damned things.

After working with addresses for many years, I started to get complacent...

... then I had to start working with various inter agency data sharing models.

<Dr Smith Voice>

Oh the pain, the pain.

</Dr Smith Voice>

TragicMonkey · 22nd March 2023, 02:26 PM

I remember Taipei addresses being especially complicated, even in English.

a_unique_person · 22nd March 2023, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword.

You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name.

What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first?

The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't.

Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name.

People have been working on these problems for years and I believe there are workable solutions available.

Addresses get very messy but every place seems to have an address now when I order something online.

arthwollipot · 22nd March 2023, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Sorting with asterisks before spaces won’t fix the problem which has nothing to do with lexicographic sort order and everything to do with putting structured data in a plain text field.

I mean, obviously, but it's what we've got.

arthwollipot · 22nd March 2023, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Wudang

You might also need multiple surnames. My pal's surname in most DBs is Kusners. He spells it Kušners so you need to allow for other codesets. People get married, change names, family names in Gaelic regions can be spelled one way in family but be spelled in an Anglicized form officially. My middle name for example can be Donald or Dòmhnall.
For official use the "normal" format of <family name> comma <other names> seems to work well especially as it disambiguates Chinese names where some keep the family name first form and others adopt western form.
You can probably visualize the schema.
One workaround is to separate a "person" id representing an actual person then have that link to various other records. For example, the person is Ho, Gah Wing. This can link to a "pupil" record which records that a "Ho, John GW" attended school Madeup High from 2001 to 2003.
It's not a problem a competent software engineer shouldn't be able to find a lot of information on readily.

To summarise the summary of the summary, people are a problem.

arthwollipot · 22nd March 2023, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

For an example, if your system deals with Thai people, depending on context, you may always deal with them by their public name, or their private name.

And make sure you have sufficient characters available. Thai names can be long.

quadraginta · 24th March 2023, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

To summarise the summary of the summary, people are a problem.

Everything would be so much simpler without them.

arthwollipot · 26th March 2023, 07:08 PM

So the changeover Genesys is happening at the end of this week.

I'm not looking forward to it, and it's not entirely because I get anxiety over new things. I can see many ways in which it is likely to be problematic.

20th March 2023, 07:18 AM	#2081
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Originally Posted by Wudang Agreed. I've spent too much time having to parse multi-purpose free text fields that should have been separate fields. Heh. Years ago I had to do a particularly horrible export of data. It took hours to run because 90% of the processing power was removing unnecessary whitespace from very large text fields. Users felt free to tab, space, and enter all over those fields. Didn't even bother trying to remove the asterisks, dashes, underscores, and other characters some would sometimes enter to "make pretty lines" in there. It was a horrible mess.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

20th March 2023, 09:32 AM	#2082
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4,369	Tomorrow morning I have to run that application that is known by three letters that are also my initials. There's a big post-it in the middle of my desk that I wrote that confuses me momentarily every time I glance at it. I can't even write down the full na of the application because no one can remember what the three letters stand for. Ffs.
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

21st March 2023, 05:35 AM	#2083
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,053	The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword. You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name. What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first? The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't. Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st March 2023, 06:24 AM	#2084
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword. You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name. What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first? The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't. Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name. Or anybody could have any name whatsoever, because we'd actually run everything behind the scenes off unique ID numbers. She may be Katyleigh-Bryttanee Melissa Khaleesi Jones-S'mith to her friends, but to me she's just ole' 293084917309. Hell, she could stick some emojis in there, it's just a display field.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st March 2023, 06:51 AM	#2085
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,537	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword. You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name. What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first? The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't. Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name. Asimov once tongue-in-cheek argued that if we want truly individual names we should all have a unique number. Also I have in the past wanted to commit genocide against the good Sinhalese people for their very long and strangely structured names! That was back in the day when every bit and byte mattered so someone suddenly wanting "extra" characters? Or even worse have a family name and a surname as well as a first name..... !!!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you Last edited by Darat; 21st March 2023 at 06:53 AM. Reason: words

21st March 2023, 07:34 AM	#2086
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,443	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword. You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name. What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first? The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't. Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name. Not really. It just needs programmers who understand what they're working with. The directory at the bank I worked at coped fine with Spanish two part family names, people with Chinese names who'd also adopted "western" names etc. Internationalisation in data, especially user data, has been a thing for several decades. It's important when we want to tie people's records together. Or when people forget their unique id etc.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

21st March 2023, 07:47 AM	#2087
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Originally Posted by Wudang Not really. It just needs programmers who understand what they're working with. The directory at the bank I worked at coped fine with Spanish two part family names, people with Chinese names who'd also adopted "western" names etc. Internationalisation in data, especially user data, has been a thing for several decades. It's important when we want to tie people's records together. Or when people forget their unique id etc. I guess I'd have one field for the full name, in the order it's normally put. Then several separate fields for name elements, each with a number. Then another field that stores what order those name element fields are supposed to go. Maybe a couple of fields like that, representing the order to put the name elements for official use, for direct address, etc. And of course title fields, suffix fields, etc.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st March 2023, 08:47 AM	#2088
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sir Ddinbych Posts: 6,957	Originally Posted by Darat Asimov once tongue-in-cheek argued that if we want truly individual names we should all have a unique number. Also I have in the past wanted to commit genocide against the good Sinhalese people for their very long and strangely structured names! That was back in the day when every bit and byte mattered so someone suddenly wanting "extra" characters? Or even worse have a family name and a surname as well as a first name..... !!! I've had the opposite problem, trying to perform fuzzy matching on surnames becomes very problematic when there's a large Chinese population with two-letter surname fields.
	__________________ I’d rather be a rising ape than a falling angel. - Sir Terry Pratchett

21st March 2023, 08:50 AM	#2089
xterra So far, so good... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded Posts: 3,988	Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names \| Kalzumeus Software I may have linked this previously. It's worth linking again.
	__________________ Over we go....

21st March 2023, 09:29 AM	#2090
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,443	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I guess I'd have one field for the full name, in the order it's normally put. Then several separate fields for name elements, each with a number. Then another field that stores what order those name element fields are supposed to go. Maybe a couple of fields like that, representing the order to put the name elements for official use, for direct address, etc. And of course title fields, suffix fields, etc. You might also need multiple surnames. My pal's surname in most DBs is Kusners. He spells it Kušners so you need to allow for other codesets. People get married, change names, family names in Gaelic regions can be spelled one way in family but be spelled in an Anglicized form officially. My middle name for example can be Donald or Dòmhnall. For official use the "normal" format of <family name> comma <other names> seems to work well especially as it disambiguates Chinese names where some keep the family name first form and others adopt western form. You can probably visualize the schema. One workaround is to separate a "person" id representing an actual person then have that link to various other records. For example, the person is Ho, Gah Wing. This can link to a "pupil" record which records that a "Ho, John GW" attended school Madeup High from 2001 to 2003. It's not a problem a competent software engineer shouldn't be able to find a lot of information on readily.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

21st March 2023, 09:30 AM	#2091
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,443	Originally Posted by xterra Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names \| Kalzumeus Software I may have linked this previously. It's worth linking again. Very much so. I recall passing this round work a few years ago.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

21st March 2023, 09:35 AM	#2092
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,797	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword. You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name. What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? You either embrace the multitude of names with a repeating field, limit them to only putting two of their names or just have one big field in which to put the name in the order in which they would normally expect to see it written/said. Quote: Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first? Use "given name" and "family name" or just have one big field in which to put the name in the order in which they would normally expect to see it written/said. Quote: The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't. Frequently you don't really care how the field is structured. You are only recording it for the purposes of communicating back to the person filling it in. The address is the one that causes me the most PTSD. Even limiting yourself to just the UK, there are many variants of the address format. When I was doing some work for the organisation that handled many planning applications in England, they gave me a specification for the address that was two pages of XML schema and it was still broken. All you need is street address (not limited to 35 characters please, UK planning authorities), post code and some free text lines in between, which can now be filled in by doing a post code lookup (couldn't back then though). Also, assuming the word "number" in "phone number" means you need to store it in a numeric field. My phone number, by the way, is 7.88e+09

21st March 2023, 09:43 AM	#2093
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,797	Originally Posted by Wudang You might also need multiple surnames. My pal's surname in most DBs is Kusners. He spells it Kušners so you need to allow for other codesets. People get married, change names, family names in Gaelic regions can be spelled one way in family but be spelled in an Anglicized form officially. My middle name for example can be Donald or Dòmhnall. What encoding do you need other than UTF-8? There has been no excuse for not handling non US-ASCII characters for thirty years.

21st March 2023, 10:03 AM	#2094
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,443	Originally Posted by jeremyp What encoding do you need other than UTF-8? There has been no excuse for not handling non US-ASCII characters for thirty years. You need to be aware of source encodings like what a user enters or the data is sent to you, in mainframe land you need to understand EBCDIC codesets (maybe, is there a proper solution now?).
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

21st March 2023, 10:16 AM	#2095
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Originally Posted by jeremyp The address is the one that causes me the most PTSD. Ugh. Flashbacks to years ago when I worked with a particularly stupid application that would not accept anything other than a 5 digit numeric ZIP code. We did business with Canada, which uses six digits alternating alphabetical and numeric.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st March 2023, 10:16 AM	#2096
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,990	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword. You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name. What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first? The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't. Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name. I have an Indian colleague who only has one name. Many systems fail to work for him as a result
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

21st March 2023, 10:25 AM	#2097
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,497	Mononyms are common in Indonesia. I had a coworker at Boeing who basically had to make up another name.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

21st March 2023, 10:29 AM	#2098
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,053	Computer hardware manufactures. Naming no names but it rhymes with Mewlit Mackard. How the everloving hell do you actually manage to screw up something as simple as a Power LED. When the computer is off it off, when the computer is on it glows. But no. You mental patients now have the only LED on the front of your Mini-PCs be "conceptual" sometimes it means it's on, sometimes it means an error code, sometimes it's... hell if know the price of tea in China in Morse Code.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 21st March 2023 at 10:41 AM.

21st March 2023, 10:39 AM	#2099
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Speaking of lights, the docking station I use for my work laptop has an LED that blinks when the laptop is sleeping...but by "blink" I mean "stays on for thirty seconds then sloooowly fades out, then fades back in and holds on for thirty seconds". So if I'm passing by and want to make sure the thing's asleep and hasn't been jostled awake I have to stand there and watch the light for at least half a minute.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st March 2023, 10:42 AM	#2100
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,053	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Speaking of lights, the docking station I use for my work laptop has an LED that blinks when the laptop is sleeping...but by "blink" I mean "stays on for thirty seconds then sloooowly fades out, then fades back in and holds on for thirty seconds". So if I'm passing by and want to make sure the thing's asleep and hasn't been jostled awake I have to stand there and watch the light for at least half a minute. //Total Hijack// I can't remember the exact car but Doug Demuro reviewed a Luxury SUV with one of the worst design features. When you get out of the car the headlights stay on for 30 seconds or so to illuminate your path, that's normal most cars have that these days, but on this car the BACKUP lights also came on so you park your car, get out, and for 30 seconds it looks like you're going to back up.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st March 2023, 10:54 AM	#2101
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 55,797	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I guess I'd have one field for the full name, in the order it's normally put. Then several separate fields for name elements, each with a number. Then another field that stores what order those name element fields are supposed to go. Maybe a couple of fields like that, representing the order to put the name elements for official use, for direct address, etc. And of course title fields, suffix fields, etc. You're giving me flashbacks to when I worked on an email server that used X.400 standards, where there were multiple fields for names for each user (forenames, family name, generation, etc.), and both an ASCII (or possibly ISO 8859) and Unicode version of each one, and for any one user, they might have neither, one or both versions of each field configured for their account, and when they logged in they might specify a mix of the ASCII or Unicode versions, and I had to find the correct account...
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

21st March 2023, 11:29 AM	#2102
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Originally Posted by zooterkin You're giving me flashbacks to when I worked on an email server that used X.400 standards, where there were multiple fields for names for each user (forenames, family name, generation, etc.), and both an ASCII (or possibly ISO 8859) and Unicode version of each one, and for any one user, they might have neither, one or both versions of each field configured for their account, and when they logged in they might specify a mix of the ASCII or Unicode versions, and I had to find the correct account... Well obviously there should have been a coalesce somewhere to grab the contents of those fields in order of priority. I admit I only just started using coalesce last year and now I can't stop, I love it so much!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st March 2023, 11:33 AM	#2103
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,336	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Ugh. Flashbacks to years ago when I worked with a particularly stupid application that would not accept anything other than a 5 digit numeric ZIP code. We did business with Canada, which uses six digits alternating alphabetical and numeric. Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal codes?
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

21st March 2023, 11:36 AM	#2104
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal code? I think it's clear from context what I meant. It would have been confusing to say "alternating alphanumerics" when half are alpha and half numeric. "Character" sounded too vague. But thanks so much for your criticism of my word choices, I look forward to basking in the brilliancy of your undoubtedly perfect posts.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st March 2023, 02:45 PM	#2105
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 4,919	Hey, if your systems don't have a 'name type' field, you're probably doing it wrong. Just of the top of my head: Maiden name, married name, alias, graffiti tag, preferred name, religious name, public name, private name, nickname, formal name, psuedonym/nom de plume... For an example, if your system deals with Thai people, depending on context, you may always deal with them by their public name, or their private name. And, again depending on nature of your system, you may have to deal with pre and post nominals. Addresses can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned. But like names, my last system also had to deal with 'address type' and the varying 'address format' that comes with each type. Think of 'location' and method for contacting this person/organisation for every kind of 'address' you can imagine.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

21st March 2023, 03:39 PM	#2106
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,941	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal codes? Clearly you haven't used hexadecimal.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

21st March 2023, 04:47 PM	#2107
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	Originally Posted by novaphile Hey, if your systems don't have a 'name type' field, you're probably doing it wrong. Just of the top of my head: Maiden name, married name, alias, graffiti tag, preferred name, religious name, public name, private name, nickname, formal name, psuedonym/nom de plume... For an example, if your system deals with Thai people, depending on context, you may always deal with them by their public name, or their private name. And, again depending on nature of your system, you may have to deal with pre and post nominals. "Thanks for the report, but one question: did you accidentally pull the 'stripper name' field?" "No, I meant to include that one." "Okaaaay. Well, thanks, Mike." "Please call me 'Vanilla Beef'."
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st March 2023, 05:47 PM	#2108
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,688	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Do you have an example of one of these alphabetic digits we use in our postal codes? Don't be so pedantic, Blue. You know very well that you are often asked to enter "the first three digits of your Postal Code" in all sorts of on-line forms here in the Great White North. I get rejected when I try. There are other sites that ask you to enter your "FSA". I had to Google that when I was first asked. It's certainly not part of our common nomenclature. Back when the Internet was young I got an error when trying to enter my Postal Code in a form on a site of a Big US Corporation (it had already accepted that I was in Canada). When I protested to Support they eventually connected me by phone with a staff programmer somewhere in the US and he was quite happy to listen and fix the issue. This was in the days before the useless chatbots supposedly "answer" all questions.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

21st March 2023, 06:51 PM	#2109
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,941	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey "Thanks for the report, but one question: did you accidentally pull the 'stripper name' field?" "No, I meant to include that one." "Okaaaay. Well, thanks, Mike." "Please call me 'Vanilla Beef'." Thinks it is possible to derive their Porn Name from their other details?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

21st March 2023, 11:20 PM	#2110
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,336	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I think it's clear from context what I meant. It would have been confusing to say "alternating alphanumerics" when half are alpha and half numeric ... Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Clearly you haven't used hexadecimal. Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Don't be so pedantic, Blue. ... Grrr. I knew I should have put a smiley at the end of that line.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

22nd March 2023, 03:37 AM	#2111
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,443	I would never have imagined how complex addresses could be until.i started working with the damned things.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

22nd March 2023, 09:52 AM	#2112
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,688	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Grrr. I knew I should have put a smiley at the end of that line. That would not have stopped me from posting!!
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

22nd March 2023, 01:52 PM	#2113
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 4,919	Originally Posted by Wudang I would never have imagined how complex addresses could be until.i started working with the damned things. After working with addresses for many years, I started to get complacent... ... then I had to start working with various inter agency data sharing models. <Dr Smith Voice> Oh the pain, the pain. </Dr Smith Voice>
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

22nd March 2023, 02:26 PM	#2114
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,988	I remember Taipei addresses being especially complicated, even in English.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

22nd March 2023, 04:09 PM	#2115
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 45,243	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The problem is "Fields" are a double edged sword. You have three separate fields for First Name, Middle Name, and Last Name. What happens when you someone doesn't have a middle name? Or four names? Or a hyphenated last name? Or comes from a culture where the traditional form is to put the last name first? The more "structured" something is the better it works when everything fits into the structure, but it breaks a lot harder when you have to deal with something that doesn't. Sadly we aren't allowed to dictate rules to society based on what makes data entry easier. If it was up to IT everyone would have First and Last names of the exact same number of characters and nobody would be allowed to have the same name. People have been working on these problems for years and I believe there are workable solutions available. Addresses get very messy but every place seems to have an address now when I order something online.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos