Protests Erupt in Cuba

[newyorkguy]

Public protests in Cuba, normally unthinkable, have erupted as widespread anger and frustration grows at the current situation. The Miami Herald reports:

Quote:

In an unprecedented display of anger and frustration, thousands of people took to the streets Sunday in several cities and towns in Cuba, including Havana, to call for the end of the decades-old dictatorship and demand food and vaccines as shortages of basic necessities have reached crisis proportions and COVID-19 cases have soared. Miami Herald link

A 14-second video shows people marching in protest.

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I AGREE

With a population of 11 million people -- thirty times smaller than the United States -- Cuba is now recording more new Covid-19 cases per day then in the U.S. .

[dudalb]

A System modeled after that of the old Soviet Union fails badly. Whatta surprise.
But I though Cuba had such a great health care system?

[RolandRat]

Originally Posted by dudalb

A System modeled after that of the old Soviet Union fails badly. Whatta surprise.
But I though Cuba had such a great health care system?

What made you think it was so great? A nationalised health care system is only going to be as good as the people in charge and how much they are willing to invest in it.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by RolandRat

What made you think it was so great? A nationalised health care system is only going to be as good as the people in charge and how much they are willing to invest in it.

It has been constanlty touted by Castro apologist as being great, Micheal Moore being the worst example.
It seems not to be that good in reality.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by dudalb

It has been constanlty touted by Castro apologist as being great, Micheal Moore being the worst example.

It seems not to be that good in reality.

I have no dog in the fight.

But covid cases and deaths rising isn't a result of health care infrastructure and serviceability, it is a failure of public health care policy.

12% vaccinated. That's the reason.

Now, is that a failure of leadership or a failure of execution? I don't know.

[newyorkguy]

The Cuban people have suffered a lot under communist rulers. I wondered if this might be the beginnings of a historic uprising -- such as we saw in Eastern Europe thirty years ago -- but the protests need to become widespread and pervasive to be successful. We shall see.

Bloomberg News loaded a video -- apparently from today -- showing protests in what I think is Havana.

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I AGREE

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I have no dog in the fight.

But covid cases and deaths rising isn't a result of health care infrastructure and serviceability, it is a failure of public health care policy.

12% vaccinated. That's the reason.

Now, is that a failure of leadership or a failure of execution? I don't know.

Probably both, given that Cuba, despite surface changes, is still pretty much ran on the hard line Soviet model.
I am not opposed to more democractig, moderate forms of Socialism, but IMHO hard line "The state controls everything" Marxist model has failed time and time again.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

The Cuban people have suffered a lot under communist rulers. I wondered if this might be the beginnings of a historic uprising -- such as we saw in Eastern Europe thirty years ago -- but the protests need to become widespread and pervasive to be successful. We shall see.

Bloomberg News loaded a video -- apparently from today -- showing protests in what I think is Havana.

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I AGREE

Cuba Libre!

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Probably both, given that Cuba, despite surface changes, is still pretty much ran on the hard line Soviet model.

I am not opposed to more democractig, moderate forms of Socialism, but IMHO hard line "The state controls everything" Marxist model has failed time and time again.

The public health metrics are what I prefer to go by. As I understand it, they are on-par with many advanced nations and outperform the U.S.

YMMV.

[dudalb]

ANd in many forums the True Beleivers have shown up, blaming everybody and everything for the situation in Cuba except the Cuban Government.
US sanctions are getting a lot of the blame. I have been in favor of lifting the sanctions for a long time simply becuase that will take that excuse away from the Cuban Government.
US sanctions have only a minor impact on the Cuban economy.
Truth is a lot of people just cannot get their fantisized version of a workers paradise in Cuba out of their heads.

[dudalb]

Cuban government is now using the old classic "The protestors are tools of the evil imperalist reactionairies" line in justifying supression of the protestors. And apparently the Cuban regime is organzing thugs gangs to go after the protestors.
Sadly, but to what should be nobody's surprise, the usual useful idiots are buying into the Cuban government line.
This is going to get really, really, ugly.
You know, I am wierd in one way. I don't like oppresive regimes, no matter what ideology they use. Oppersive regimes are bad, period.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Cuban government is now using the old classic "The protestors are tools of the evil imperalist reactionairies" line in justifying supression of the protestors. And apparently the Cuban regime is organzing thugs gangs to go after the protestors.
Sadly, but to what should be nobody's surprise, the usual useful idiots are buying into the Cuban government line.
This is going to get really, really, ugly.
You know, I am wierd in one way. I don't like oppresive regimes, no matter what ideology they use. Oppersive regimes are bad, period.

I agree the situation is grim and repression in all forms is an affront.

The reason it is an effective epithet, however, has a lot to do with it being true about as often as it is not.

This looks genuine and spontaneous and conditions on the ground warrant real, immediate, and visceral concerns.

But if we can't ever seem to climb more than a handful of years without our foreign intelligence services getting caught with their fingers in one or several South/Central American pies, it will continue to be a) available, and b) effective, in dividing public opinion enough to deflate their support.

[dann]

Quote:

They call themselves freedom fighters and think that they are fighting for all of us. They have formed the Joint Council of the Liberation Movement and call it a liberation movement for the people, by the people.

And they are against vaccines, against lockdowns - coronavirus is not a big threat, but the government is. It is - the many people think - part of a worldwide plan to secure all power to the elite, along with most of the money, and to oppress the people.
De kalder sig frihedskæmpere, og når de har vundet kampen, vil de stille dronningen og andre fra eliten til ansvar for corona-svindel (Jan. 17, 2021)

I expect that Biden will intervene in the near future. He can be excused for having overlooked this plea from the group of freedom fighters because he had other things on his mind in mid-January.

[Sideroxylon]

Maybe Murrica should end the ludicrous embargo?

[dann]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

With a population of 11 million people -- thirty times smaller than the United States -- Cuba is now recording more new Covid-19 cases per day then in the U.S. .

True! Let's look at some other numbers:
Deaths per million (Worldometers, July 18, 2021)
Cuba: 163
USA: 1,876
Yes, that's communism for ya!
USA! USA! USA!

The numbers of new infections and Covid-19 deaths are rising rapidly. At this point, deaths per million are somewhere between Norway's and Finland's. But for almost a year, Cuba managed to hold the virus at bay while developing its own vaccines, which are being used to immunize the Cuban population right now and are also used in Venezuela because the country did not get the vaccines it had ordered because of the US blockade.
It might have been better if Cuba had administered those vaccines at home instead of abroad, but the domestic vaccinations are going pretty fast in Cuba right now.
I can see why Biden would want to score a propaganda victory by giving some of the vaccines that the Americans don't seem to want to Cuba instead, but lifting the blockade that prevents the country from buying medical supplies would be an actual help.

I have recently donated a couple of hundred $ to the Danish campaign to send syringes to Cuba. Cuba has the vaccines to fill those syringes.

Support the campaign to break the US blockade and send syringes to the people of Cuba! (CodePink)

Quote:

"Since 1962, the United States has forced pain and suffering on the people of Cuba by cutting off food, medicine, and supplies, costing the tiny island nation an estimated $130 billion."
That loss has made it "harder for Cuba to acquire medical equipment needed to develop its own COVID-19 vaccines and equipment for food production," BLM continued.
"This comes in spite of the country's strong medical care and history of lending doctors and nurses to disasters around the world."
Black Lives Matter calls on Biden to immediately lift the blockade on Cuba (CubaSi.cu, July 15, 2021)

[dann]

I have posted about Cuban Covid-19 vaccines a couple of times in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology sub-forum.
For instance:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13520407
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13528358

[dann]

U.S. Sanctions on Cuba and Venezuela Hamper the Global Fight against COVID-19 (TheIntercept, July 18, 2021)

[dann]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Cuba Libre!

I recommend the version with tuKola and Cuban rum. It just tastes better at the Hotel Habana Libre.

But Mi Mojito en La Bodeguita, mi Daiquirí en El Floridita.

Today these places serve the purpose of keeping the Cuban economy afloat. I hope that they will be able to reach the stage where they no longer have to depend on tourism.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Maybe Murrica should end the ludicrous embargo?

Agreed, but blaming the embargo for Cuba's economic ills we just another way of denying that the Cuban ecnomic system,modeled after the Soviet System, has been a miserable falure.
One reason why I suport lifitng the embargos is that the Cuban Regime and it useful idiots will no longer be able to use that as an excuse.

[Sideroxylon]

Nm

[dann]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Agreed, but blaming the embargo for Cuba's economic ills we just another way of denying that the Cuban ecnomic system,modeled after the Soviet System, has been a miserable falure.
One reason why I suport lifitng the embargos is that the Cuban Regime and it useful idiots will no longer be able to use that as an excuse.

Could you tell us more about how you allegedly support putting an end to a blockade that is an attempt to make "the Cuban economic system" fail?
And what are the other reasons?

[dann]

Meanwhile in another part of the world:

Quote:

With Thailand going through its worst pandemic wave to date, protesters in Bangkok defied COVID restrictions to call for Prime Minister Prayut Chan-O-Cha to step down.
Thai police on Sunday used rubber bullets, tear gas and water cannon to disperse some 1,000 protesters calling for Premier Prayut Chan-O-Cha to step down over alleged mismanagement of the COVID-19 pandemic.
It was unclear how many were injured in the clash.
The protest came as the kingdom registers record levels of coronavirus infections, with hospitals under severe strain.
Thailand: Police fire rubber bullets at anti-government protesters (DW, July 18, 2021)

It can only be a matter of hours before Biden and Blinken demand regime change ...

[TurkeysGhost]

i came in here to do apologism for the Cuban revolution, but I just can't given the record of human rights abuse. There's a horrible prison right there on the island that is openly torturing prisoners and shows no sign of ever stopping. Perhaps one day the torture camp can be liberated and those committing crimes against humanity will be held accountable.

Only a tankie would say this is ok.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

i came in here to do apologism for the Cuban revolution, but I just can't given the record of human rights abuse. There's a horrible prison right there on the island that is openly torturing prisoners and shows no sign of ever stopping. Perhaps one day the torture camp can be liberated and those committing crimes against humanity will be held accountable.

Only a tankie would say this is ok.

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by dudalb

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

Plenty of useful idiots to keep it on though.

[dann]

Originally Posted by dudalb

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

You seriously overestimate your own impact if you believe that you constitute heat that the Cuban government needs help to deflect.

Maybe it's time for the USA to ask Cuba to send the Henry Reeve Brigade to help fight the virus.
Florida appears to be in dire need of foreign intervention:

Inside A Florida Hospital During Nationwide Covid Surge (NBC News, July 20, 2021)

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I AGREE

Cuba offered to help last year: Cuba is Ready to Aid the U.S. in its Fight Against COVID-19 (The Progressive Magazine, April 30, 2020)

Quote:

In March 2020, 144 health workers from this Henry Reeve Brigade were sent by Cuba to assist Jamaica in dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic in Jamaica, also another group was sent to Italy to fight against the COVID-19 pandemic in Italy.
Henry Reeve (soldier) (Wikipedia)

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by dudalb

no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?

If you're going to talk seriously about it, you should probably cite some of these breathless reports.

[dann]

I don't think you actually want citations. Dudalb didn't have any.
But here goes:

Quote:

Also in the park where Díaz-Canel went to confront those who intended to fracture the unity of the Party, the state, the government and the people, were father and son, Roberto Reyes Herrera, president of the Antonio Briones Montoto agricultural cooperative production unit, and Yosbel Reyes Sotomayor. The former recalled the hard times Cubans faced before 1959, which his parents told him about, and insisted that he is grateful for "the opportunities the Revolution has given me, that a few do not want to recognize."

His son likewise stated, "I’m sure that it was the Cuban-American mafia who paid the provocateurs who wanted to take advantage of the difficult situation Cuba is experiencing," adding, "The youth of San Antonio are on the side of our leaders, that is why we have taken to the parks and the streets.”

The flags, the cheers, the revolutionary conscience and confidence in those who are working every day to move our nation forward, left drowning in a sigh of impotence the malicious imperialist lackeys who made Benito leave his quiet Sunday at home. He insisted, "Let it be known, the people of Cuba are not those who disturbed the peace today, those who love the empire so much. The people of Cuba are the doctors, the scientists who made the vaccines, those of us who came to tell the President: Whatever it takes, Díaz-Canel, whatever it takes!"
San Antonio de los Baños: Whatever it takes, Díaz-Canel! (Granma.cu, July 12, 2021)

Now, I don't doubt that you can also find ordinary Cubans who aren't paid by USAID to instigate regime change, people who have simply suffered from the pandemic and the additional hardships that it added to the everyday lives of Cubans, but I am pretty sure that the people quoted in the Granma articles actually exist and actually said what they were quoted as saying. Unlike all the tough and strong men that Trump always talks about who come up to thank him with tears in their eyes:

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I AGREE

Quote:

It takes a lot of nerve for the U.S. President to assume a tone of concern for the Cuban people, while maintaining the genocidal blockade and allocating millions of dollars for subversion in our country.
The U.S. government should listen to the Cuban people demanding an end to the blockade (Granma.cu, July 15, 2021)

Of course, dudalb seems to think that the blockade doesn't really do anything to destroy the Cuban economy and that it wasn't an even harder blow when Trump added to it in the middle of the pandemic when tourism suffered everywhere.
To dudalb, it only provides an excuse for the Cuban state, but for some reason, Biden doesn't seem to want to remove that excuse ...


ETA: The Men in Black 'freedom fighters' I quoted in post 13 also don't represent the Danish people in its struggle against the the oppression of a Social Democratic PM, who is violating their human rights. They are the lunatic fringe, but probably not paid by foreign adversaries.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by theprestige

If you're going to talk seriously about it, you should probably cite some of these breathless reports.

Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

The original generation of revolutionaries are all dead or retired, so the party doesn't have the benefit of extremely popular figures like Fidel anymore. Covid has intensified the economic shortfalls of the Cuban system.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some mild market reforms as a result, akin to what China or Vietnam went through in their history. A full blown color revolution seems unlikely, unless there is significant interference by foreign powers.

It seems relevant to be mindful what the current Cuban system is being compared to. What alternative existed for Cuba? What alternatives exist today? Would it be better if they went the way of some of their other South American peers, like Guatemala, that had their revolutions crushed by CIA back military coups? Would it have been better if huge swaths of Cuban land and the economy remained in the hands of powerful foreign corporations like United Fruit? Perhaps if the heirs of Batista and the US mob still ran the entire tourism industry, things on the island might be better.

Compared to the rest of South America, which suffers from enormous levels of intense poverty, is Cuba really doing that poorly? If there's going to be a good faith analysis of their system of government, seems that settings realistic standards of comparison is a necessary first step.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?

THanks for proving my point: You are a supporter of the Cuban regime.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

The original generation of revolutionaries are all dead or retired, so the party doesn't have the benefit of extremely popular figures like Fidel anymore. Covid has intensified the economic shortfalls of the Cuban system.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some mild market reforms as a result, akin to what China or Vietnam went through in their history. A full blown color revolution seems unlikely, unless there is significant interference by foreign powers.

It seems relevant to be mindful what the current Cuban system is being compared to. What alternative existed for Cuba? What alternatives exist today? Would it be better if they went the way of some of their other South American peers, like Guatemala, that had their revolutions crushed by CIA back military coups? Would it have been better if huge swaths of Cuban land and the economy remained in the hands of powerful foreign corporations like United Fruit? Perhaps if the heirs of Batista and the US mob still ran the entire tourism industry, things on the island might be better.

Compared to the rest of South America, which suffers from enormous levels of intense poverty, is Cuba really doing that poorly? If there's going to be a good faith analysis of their system of government, seems that settings realistic standards of comparison is a necessary first step.

"Communism is a great system. Only problem is the right people have not tried it."

Back in the 1930's you would have been eagerly defending Uncle Joe, no doubt.

[dudalb]

Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.

Three back to back posts and no response to a plainly stated question. Impressive.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

Agreed. But where are the breathless reports of an imminent color revolution you were talking about? All I'm seeing is a little cautious optimism.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Agreed. But where are the breathless reports of an imminent color revolution you were talking about? All I'm seeing is a little cautious optimism.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this comment:

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

The Cuban people have suffered a lot under communist rulers. I wondered if this might be the beginnings of a historic uprising -- such as we saw in Eastern Europe thirty years ago -- but the protests need to become widespread and pervasive to be successful. We shall see.

Bloomberg News loaded a video -- apparently from today -- showing protests in what I think is Havana.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this comment:

Yeah, I don't see how you get "breathless reports" from newyorkguy's cautious optimism.

Quote:

Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.

newyorkguy is a Cuban expat and an American Cold Warrior? And why get personal, anyway?

I think you're making up a controversy where none exists, for some sort of ill-conceived rhetorical advantage. It's weird. There's widespread protests in Cuba, which is pretty noteworthy in itself, and could well be an early indicator of things to come. Lots of stuff there worth talking about, but your spin seems to be, why do people always push a counter-revolution narrative. And then it turns out you don't actually know anyone who's pushing tha narrative. So not only is it a weird spin, it's not even a reality-based spin. What benefit were you hoping to get from this?

I hope this isn't some sort of pro-Castro attempt to poison the well against discussion of possible regime change in Cuba. It will suck if every time someone expresses cautious optimism, you read into it "American Cold Warriors are making breathless reports of an imminent counter-revolution".

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Yeah, I don't see how you get "breathless reports" from newyorkguy's cautious optimism.


newyorkguy is a Cuban expat and an American Cold Warrior? And why get personal, anyway?

I think you're making up a controversy where none exists, for some sort of ill-conceived rhetorical advantage. It's weird. There's widespread protests in Cuba, which is pretty noteworthy in itself, and could well be an early indicator of things to come. Lots of stuff there worth talking about, but your spin seems to be, why do people always push a counter-revolution narrative. And then it turns out you don't actually know anyone who's pushing tha narrative. So not only is it a weird spin, it's not even a reality-based spin. What benefit were you hoping to get from this?

The controversy certainly exists generally, though I may be jumping to conclusions to ascribe that motive to posters here.

I don't think it's controversial to say that explicit regime change policies is basically the accepted party line for the Republican party, and probably not an insignificant number among the Democratic party as well. Perhaps my knee-jerk assumption that any US coverage about unrest in Cuba is a pretext for US intervention is misplaced in this case.

Originally Posted by theprestige

I hope this isn't some sort of pro-Castro attempt to poison the well against discussion of possible regime change in Cuba. It will suck if every time someone expresses cautious optimism, you read into it "American Cold Warriors are making breathless reports of an imminent counter-revolution".

As far as I can tell, Castro is a non factor these days. Fidel has been dead for years and his brother is only dragged out for rare symbolic efforts.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.

You can’t see a difference? Good for you, chum.

[timhau]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.

Just like in Belarus and other police states, every visible public protest shows cracks in the system.

BTW, there's nothing counter-revolutionary in attacking a decades-old entrenched system. It's part of the BS left-wing nostalgia that still tries to pass of Cuba as laid-back Latino socialism with rum and rhumba.