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11th February 2019, 12:55 AM | #241 |
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11th February 2019, 01:01 AM | #242 |
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11th February 2019, 11:28 AM | #243 |
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Originally Posted by Wonder234
Originally Posted by Wonder234
"I don't know how minds can be an emergent property of matter therefore it isn't true and minds exist independently of matter" "I also don't know how minds can exist independently of matter, but it's true anyway." You've just declared both mind being an emergent property of matter and mind arising independently of matter to be very problematic, yet you've just declared the first one false and the second one true even though you've got no actual argument favour one over the other and that your entire argument supposedly depends upon! Where's your argument that mind existing independently of matter is such a superior proposition that you declare it true over mind existing as an emergent property of matter? This is what happens when you cobble together a terrible argument that you then ad hoc try and patch up when it becomes apparent it's full of gaping holes. |
11th February 2019, 03:33 PM | #244 |
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27th February 2019, 11:08 PM | #245 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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27th February 2019, 11:33 PM | #246 |
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...because a mind is just what a brain does.
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27th February 2019, 11:57 PM | #247 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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28th February 2019, 12:17 AM | #248 |
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Do you have any evidence that a mind is what anything else does?
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28th February 2019, 01:12 AM | #249 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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28th February 2019, 01:58 AM | #250 |
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28th February 2019, 03:58 PM | #251 |
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28th February 2019, 06:02 PM | #252 |
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We know that minds are what brains do. We can look at a brain, see it working, and we can even tinker with it, which has definite measurable effects on the consciousness of the brain's owner. Damage to the brain affects the mind (cf. Phineas Gage).
On the other hand, we have seen a mind in nothing other than brains, despite looking for them for hundreds of years. This doesn't mean that one doesn't exist, somewhere in the universe, but we probably would have seen one by now if there were one here on Earth. |
6th March 2019, 09:21 AM | #253 |
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He didn't give a circular argument. He described an object (a brain) and an action (mental processes), and noted that our observations show that the process does not appear anywhere else.
It's similar to stating that our observations confirm that a fire cannot burn without oxygen. |
6th March 2019, 10:14 AM | #254 |
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Title: "Free Will Argument for God"
Reason alone cannot provide what is needed: empirical proof. |
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6th March 2019, 02:11 PM | #255 |
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6th March 2019, 07:34 PM | #256 |
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It is reasonable to believe that the mind and the brain are intertwined but not a fact. Assuming that it is then using this assumption to "prove" that the mind can not exist without the brain falls under the category of "begging the question".
If you claim that no combination of chemicals (none of which are oxygen) can produce a fire then I will defer to your superior knowledge. |
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6th March 2019, 07:51 PM | #257 |
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6th March 2019, 08:53 PM | #258 |
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6th March 2019, 09:32 PM | #259 |
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The difference is that we know what "running" is but we don't have a satisfactory definition for the "mind".
We know that altering the brain will alter a person's thoughts and behaviour but we can't say what effect it will have on their mind because of the lack of a suitable definition. |
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6th March 2019, 09:46 PM | #260 |
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The mind is thoughts and behaviour.
But seriously, is your argument really "we can't say that mind and brain are entangled because we can't define mind"? Try this: The element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought. There. I (and the Oxford Dictionary) just defined "mind" for you. Please, continue with your argument that we can't define "mind". |
7th March 2019, 12:01 AM | #261 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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7th March 2019, 12:05 AM | #262 |
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Is there such a thing as life, or is it just biological activity?
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7th March 2019, 12:52 AM | #263 |
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7th March 2019, 01:24 AM | #264 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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7th March 2019, 04:07 AM | #265 |
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7th March 2019, 04:33 AM | #266 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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7th March 2019, 09:11 AM | #267 |
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7th March 2019, 09:17 AM | #268 |
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Hmmm... in a bit late.
Oops. Fails at point 1. There are two ways: random, and deterministic. There might be a mix as well.
Quote:
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7th March 2019, 02:56 PM | #269 |
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7th March 2019, 05:19 PM | #270 |
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This is a good post. There is a lot of truth in your position. There is also truth in evidence though.
Dr Oliver Wolf Sacks wrote a book on his experience with 1920's Encephalitis victims, It was made into a movie called "Awakenings" which featured Robin Williams and Robert Deniro. In his experience with these patients, by prescribing the drug LDopa, he was able to bring them back from a catatonic state into one of awareness and functioning. The patients reported they were fully aware when in the catatonic state but simply could not react with the physical World, meaning the damage to their brains was preventing them from speaking, moving etc, though they were aware of their surroundings the whole time. Their minds were functioning but trapped and immobile. Closer to home, my best friend's wife who recently passed away, was diagnosed with brain cancer 6 years ago. She had surgery to remove part of a brain tumor but the Doctor was unable to remove some of the deeper embedded parts of the tumor. He was afraid it would leave her unable to speak as it was deep into the speech center of the brain. It turned out that he was correct. Though not robbing her of speech entirely, her ability to speak was altered in a strange way. I spoke with her about her symptoms on a few occasions. She was having trouble speaking certain words. Not any one word in particular. She knew what she wanted to say, but the word would not come out in speech. She could even write down the word she wanted to say, but could not force herself to speak that word. Now I don't mean that she garbled the word when trying to speak it, she simply could not make any sound in relation to that word. Her mind was telling her mouth to say something but the mouth would not speak it. Otherwise, she spoke and communicated normally and you would have never known she had any sort of problem. This lead me to question that if our mind is indeed a product of our brain, then the damaged portion of the physical brain should also damage the mind and prevent it from operation there. But that's not the case. The mind is working in spite of the damaged area of brain tissue. And that's something different. Chris B. |
7th March 2019, 05:31 PM | #271 |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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7th March 2019, 05:54 PM | #272 |
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7th March 2019, 06:30 PM | #273 |
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I never claimed to have proof, merely observation. In her case the part of the brain that controlled speech was damaged, yet her mind still wanted her body to speak, the thoughts and words/their meanings were there, just without the physical ability to say those certain words.
If the two are bound within a biological organism, damage to one should damage the other. The "will" to do something not being limited by the damage to the biological area suggests some sort of separation to me. Don't get me wrong, I realize her brain must have been functioning differently. I know the mind must be located within the biological parts of the brain, whether it is energy or whatever the construction happens to be. She certainly had damage to the speech center of her brain. But this damage did not effect her mind, only the physical ability of her body to speak certain words. She knew what she wanted to say and could write it down complete with definitions of the word she wanted to speak. A head scratcher IMO. Chris B. |
7th March 2019, 06:35 PM | #274 |
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It does.
I refer you once again to the story of Phineas Gage, who is one of many, many, many case studies. In this case, if the damage was limited to Broca's area, little else would have been affected. If the damage had been to the frontal lobe, as it was with Gage, you would have seen something different. Not really. |
7th March 2019, 07:12 PM | #275 |
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These two paragraphs contradict each other. You realize that, right? Damage to the speech area of the brain doesn't damage the "formation of thought" area of the brain. There's no need to introduce a mind-brain duality, whether it is energy or whatever the construction happens to be. A person with damage to a specific area of the brain will not have damage to the undamaged area. Physiology explains everything you're saying - which you admit. Then you go on to argue that this means that physiology does not explain everything you're saying. Then you switch back to the first one again. You haven't laid out any evidence that shows that the mind is in any way distinct from the brain. All you've done is show that various areas of the brain have different functions. |
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8th March 2019, 03:10 AM | #276 |
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8th March 2019, 12:01 PM | #277 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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8th March 2019, 12:05 PM | #278 |
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Which is actually what you expect neurologically, breaking the piece that turns thoughts and intent into spoken speech means the subject can't verbalize, not that they don't have intent of thought.
You are sort of saying, if I break a video camera the TV station should stop working. |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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8th March 2019, 03:20 PM | #279 |
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8th March 2019, 08:33 PM | #280 |
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