|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
17th August 2017, 03:25 PM | #241 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
17th August 2017, 06:37 PM | #242 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 39,057
|
|
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
|
17th August 2017, 06:53 PM | #243 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,092
|
I am not the The Big Dog. Nor do I speak for him. Nor should any of what I have written below be taken as a defence of the RCC.
What I will say is that the RCC are not the only ones guilty here. Society in general is also guilty. Parents of the children should have been given the education to be able to detect and know what to do when their children were abused. Many did detect it, yet there were no mass prosecutions of priests in the 20th century. If the parents had reported it to the police and the police took it seriously then the whole thing would have been dealt with a long time ago. |
__________________
This signature is for rent. |
|
17th August 2017, 08:04 PM | #244 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
I hear what you are saying and yes others should have taken action. Parents and police should have taken it more seriously in the past, and not left it in the hands of the church. There may have been a perception that things were being done when a priest vanished from a church. When just relocated somewhere else where he could re-offend, the people in the original church would not know but the RCC hierarchy certainly did. This thread is about the RCC and its action, or lack of, is the subject matter thereof. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th August 2017, 07:50 AM | #245 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
|
|
__________________
Normal in a weird way. |
|
18th August 2017, 11:26 AM | #246 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
True. The veneration of the priesthood is a huge deal in RCC circles. "Bless me Father" and all of that pointless grovelling to cross dressing lunatics. One of the funniest was when the eastern orthodox condemned transgender folks. These guys.
Sure. Aren't they just fabulous? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
18th August 2017, 01:53 PM | #247 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th August 2017, 02:05 PM | #248 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
Are they too in free-fall?
|
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
18th August 2017, 02:25 PM | #249 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,213
|
|
18th August 2017, 02:31 PM | #250 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
|
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
18th August 2017, 02:45 PM | #251 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Perhaps it is something to look forward to in the future. Although (based on the numbers of adherents) the Eastern Orthodox Church (also known as Eastern Orthodoxy) is the second largest Christian communion in the world after the Roman Catholic Church, if you look at were they are located you may see why we don't hear about pedophilia today. In the USA, Canada, and Western Europe, Eastern Orthodox has a very small presence. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th August 2017, 02:59 PM | #252 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Well the theme of this thread is about the rapid decline in the popularity of the RCC, as a result of the stench emanating from the church at the highest levels, because of the disclosures about child abuse and the efforts to conceal it by the hierarchy. As I have mentioned before the RCC are most vulnerable here, because of the rather special elevated status of the clergy in the church. Others here seem to be on the same page as me on this issue including GT/CS who wrote - "You may not understand the priest/flock relationship. The priest represents god and can do no wrong." |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th August 2017, 03:12 PM | #253 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Another indicator of the rapid decline of the RCC is the diminishing number of Catholic Nuns in the West today. I can remember as a child seeing nuns in public was a common sight. Can't recall seeing one for years now.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...h-the-vatican/ There would seem to be some friction between the Vatican and the body representing the nuns also:
Quote:
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th August 2017, 05:53 PM | #254 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,092
|
|
__________________
This signature is for rent. |
|
18th August 2017, 08:21 PM | #255 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Well, there are two convents proximate to me. They could comfortably house hundreds and did in the 60s/70s. These days, they are down to single digits in both, rattling around the gloomy disused corridors. All of the remaining nuns wear "civvies" anyway. So it is not surprising not to see them so obviously.
Interestingly, I asked the question "Would it not make sense to merge in order to make best use of the facilities" (they are literally across the street from each other) and the answer was two-fold... A: Can't do that because they are different orders (Bon Secour vs. Holy Faith) Now why this means they could not share a honking great building without even having to cross paths is beyond reason. Maybe it's like the premiere league where players for different teams might transfer for a better celestial deal. B: More tellingly, one or other of the properties would be sold and they don't like to relinquish property. Liquid assets like cash is something they avoid. If they were seen to sell off property for a bucket of loot, why, one might expect them to pay the court awarded compensation to abuse victims and we can't have that, oh no, dear me, oh my. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
19th August 2017, 01:02 AM | #256 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
Yes, that is the theme of the thread. But I don't think it's realistic. The very existence of the castrati, to name one of many, didn't translate into any diminishment.
Religion is less popular today in general as a consequence of education, but mainly as a consequence of modern medicine (most importantly, pain killers), social security and assistance rights. Life isn't so primitive and scary, so the same way people don't develop their aggressive instincts to hunt boars, flay and butcher them, they don't need to develop their religious instincts to overcome the hard times in life. But some have failed in such a way they cannot get rid of their religious instincts so they neuroticly convert them into persecution of religiosity and religious institutions. That's the paranoiac approach of anti-theists, the kind of faulty guys that make a majority here in the "religion..." threads, which twisted pseudo-atheist religiosity nauseates me. |
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
19th August 2017, 01:09 AM | #257 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
So you are OK with the child rape? The financial skullduggery? The spread of AIDS in Africa? The constant lying? The cover ups for pedos? The sexual repression of billions? The preaching of hate and bigotry? The suppression of and perversion of basic education?
Those don't nauseate you? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
19th August 2017, 01:38 AM | #258 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
What's that? An even twister version of "if you're not with me, you're against me"?
I think you, like others, concentrate in the crimes as it's unlawful to despise Catholics (and any other Christian denomination) because they are Catholics. That's the way bigotry and hate work today: you cannot say a negroe is lumpen or subhuman, but you can become enamoured of a tree downtown and use all the hate speech you want to smear -and eventually physically attack- anyone who is in favour of felling it. Many of you are only saying "see this crimes ... you have to stop being Catholic and become an atheist". Well, if they did they would become something many of you have miserably failed to achieve -atheism-, though you aggressively say the opposite. I'll say it once more: many people with religious interests are more attracted by sin than by virtue. That includes those religious freaks self-identified as "atheists", what they're really not. Their position is a) a religious one, and b) deeply immoral. Only paedophilia is worse, that's why, I think, they're so fixated in it. It probably makes them feel well about themselves and continue to be blind to what they are really doing here, and over there. |
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
19th August 2017, 03:30 AM | #259 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Nope.
No it isn't. And strawman in any case. Nobody has claimed to "despise" catholics in this thread. Certainly not me. This thread is about the institution not the individuals. And as an institution it is vile and corrupt. And another strawman on the same lines. Where do you get this stuff? Hilariously wrong. If every single member left the RCC yet remained theist, I would not care at all. Wow. Atheism is second only to paedophilia on your morality scale. That isn't a chip on your shoulder, it's a whole tree. Atheism is a privative. It is a lack of belief in any god. All atheists are self-identified, as are all christians, muslims, jews, hindus etc. You have now claimed, therefore, that all atheists are both religious and immoral, a rather sweeping generalisation, no? How about you tell me what I am really doing and how you know that. And just what exactly do you mean by "over there"? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
19th August 2017, 03:51 AM | #260 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,692
|
Alec - you said the same things to me in a previous thread here. Where I declined to get any further involved in any discussions with you, because I think it's clear that although your posts are extremely muddled and incoherent, you are trying to claim that the sort of criticism which Abaddon (and many others) raised about senior figures in the Christian Church, that is in your belief, due to the critics of religion being somehow psychologically repressed ex theists. Firstly, that appears to be just a pet theory dreamed up in your own mind, and where you kept levelling that same accusation at me, but where in fact I have never been religious in any way at all, and I did not grow up in a religious family/home/environment. But it's a completely puerile & silly argument anyway. Because the fact is that there have been too many cases of preachers at all levels in various branches of the Christian church, who have been exposed (and legally charged) on issues of paedophilia and other child abuse. Not to mention also the sort of issues that I raised in the previous thread, e.g. church denials of evolution and their instance that God really created humans … either directly as for example in the Old Testament or indirectly by knowingly starting evolution in the first place … and the issue with that (as I explained extensively to you in the other thread) is only to point out that the church is being deliberately anti-educational and anti-science when it encourages it's worshippers (and particularly young children) to believe that science is wrong and that God is truly the intelligent deliberate force behind all such things. As explained to you before, though you took serious exception to it, the problem with that sort of religious teaching (which is also the same teaching in Islam, just to include the other very big branch of religion worldwide today), is that it leads in the end to religious believers making increasingly violent defence of their religious beliefs as they come into ever increasing conflict with what we have leaned from science …. where science has shown very clearly that such religious beliefs are completely wrong. And that makes religion, ultimately, dangerous (in fact, very dangerous indeed). It's not a matter of wanting to attack or criticise religion for no reason at all. It's a matter of honesty in pointing out that organised religions such as Christianity and Islam are sources of very serious dangers, and that's really not arguable (because it's confirmed by absolutely mountains of evidence). |
19th August 2017, 02:53 PM | #261 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Thanks abaddon and IanS your responses to aleCcowaN's bewildering posts are better than I could have managed.
From what I read there seems to be considerable disquiet among the faithful in the RCC in Australia today. http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-...02-gjzxdm.html
Quote:
Just to show I do not only read stuff that re-inforces my own view. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...472cf1613990dd A seriously biased piece of work by one Greg Craven.
Quote:
The commissioner and counsel being seen as folk hero's no less with the churches position being stigmatised! Perhaps aleCcowaN will find grist for his arguments in this article. I find it nausea inducing. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
19th August 2017, 03:16 PM | #262 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,092
|
Your Australian quote is behind a paywall.
The average age of a Catholic has gone up 2 years to 57 years in the last 5 years. That must mean that hardly any of the Catholics who are dying from old age are being replaced by babies. That trend has been going on for a long time as the average age of an Australian is only 38*. It will not be long before there will be hardly any Catholics left in Australia! See also what I said above about the decline of Catholics. This is evidence that I am not too far out. And any left would not have anyone to preach to them. *Ref: http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument |
__________________
This signature is for rent. |
|
19th August 2017, 03:28 PM | #263 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
You are welcome.
Mistake. The RCC are flat out loons. The victims are right out having nothing to do with it, the RCC are doing their best to dodge that. Turns out frankie is not the white knight people thought he was. Aids in Africa, good enough for them negroes. Why yes, if one accepts that they are remotely relevant. Paywalled. I could work that, but I lack motivation. There are a bucket of god botherers, sure.. You, me and any rational person will call that out. The MA means that it is verbotten. Not going there. Said member is actually quite the reasonable guy. As a poster, I quite like him. That said, sometimes I cannot figure out why he presents the most odd opinions out of left field. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
19th August 2017, 03:48 PM | #264 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
19th August 2017, 06:01 PM | #265 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
I believe The Australian makes articles free to read for a certain time (24 hours, I think but I could be wrong because I won't permit that awful rag to sully my browser cache), then slams the paywall down on them once that time has expired. You probably caught it during the free period, and can still access it because of a cookie.
Anyway, I'd like to see justification for the claim that Catholic priests can "do no wrong". I'm pretty sure no-one has ever claimed that priests are infallible. Let's not burn straw priests, yeah? |
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
19th August 2017, 10:20 PM | #266 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Yeah, that's all kind of strange. Couple of years ago a priest in my neighbourhood popped his clogs. He was odd to say the least, but mostly harmless. He lived in a very fine house on his lonesome.
Post mortem, a replacement priest from Nigeria arrived. Did he take up residence in that house? Nope. The poor SOB was left homeless with no more than the shirt on his back while the now empty four bed home lay idle. I really felt sorry for the guy. To the extent that I even helped him get a flat sorted eventually. Genuinely nice bloke, but ace of spades black. The prejudice he had to bear was beyond belief. So why couldn't the RCC simply let the guy move into that 4 bed house? Simple. It belonged to the nuns and they couldn't have a "blick" taking up occupancy. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
20th August 2017, 02:14 PM | #267 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
These were the words of GT/CS not mine, although my thesis is the Catholic clergy are held in a far higher regard, than the clergy of other Christian colours. Catholics see the priest as the one in the middle between themselves and God. Catholics seem shy about going the direct route to God, so they have the Virgin Mary and other saints as go betweens, and the priest of course who hears confessions and gives absolution on God's behalf. Abaddon, an ex Catholic, has endorsed this notion in a previous post. Now, further to this, my thesis is the Catholic Church is most vulnerable when the character of the clergy is brought into question. Other Christian leaders can err but the churches they represent go on virtually unscathed, because these leaders are just preachers not conduits to God. Most other Christians go the direct route when praying to God after all. Perhaps this is why the Catholic Church is bleeding so profusely now. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
20th August 2017, 02:27 PM | #268 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
The ugly face of racial prejudice rears its head. Yes I imagine white Catholics would have trouble with a black man in the pulpit. Of course there is biblical justification for racial prejudice that has been used by some in South Africa and the Southern States of the USA I believe. May not hold much sway with Catholics however as they tend not to be Bible readers in general. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
20th August 2017, 07:19 PM | #269 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,213
|
|
21st August 2017, 01:20 AM | #270 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Shame of it is that he was a really nice guy. As an atheist, this put me in the position of defending a catholic ordained priest against fellow catholics.
I really felt sorry for the guy. One crank stated that she could not make confession to a black dude, the priest must be white and wow. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
21st August 2017, 05:59 AM | #271 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,213
|
|
21st August 2017, 08:05 AM | #272 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
And that procedure can not be an abortion. So you have to do something else that causes an abortion but isn't just an abortion.
How about this statement from Nicaragua? "The Pastoral Vicar of the Archdiocese of Managua, Msgr. Miguel Mantica, said last week that the Catholic Church does not support or approve of abortion, nor does it approve of so-called "therapeutic" abortion". http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne..._in_nicaragua/ Or the Vatican "Correcting confusion generated by the recent statement of a Vatican official, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) issued a statement today confirming that so called “therapeutic” abortion “has not been and can never be” accepted as Catholic teaching. The document is a response, it says, to the “manipulation and instrumentalization” of an article by Bishop Rino Fisichella published in L’Osservatore Romano on March 15, 2009 about the case of an abortion procured for a 9 year-old Brazilian girl who had been impregnated by her stepfather." http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...azil_incident/ So their official stance is let the little 9 year old slut burst. The step father is all good though, after all the catholic church knows how seductive 9 year olds are. |
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
21st August 2017, 02:26 PM | #273 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
There doesn't seem to be much flexibility in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Quote:
It would seem those predominantly Catholic countries that lock women up, who are suspected of having had an abortion, are on solid ground as far as the church is concerned. For those not familiar with the term "latae sententiae" is a Latin phrase, meaning "sentence (already) passed", used in the canon law of the Catholic Church. A latae sententiae penalty is one that follows ipso facto or automatically, by force of the law itself, when a law is contravened. Can even the pope overturn this I wonder? |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
21st August 2017, 02:54 PM | #274 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
|
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
21st August 2017, 03:02 PM | #275 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
El-Salvador is one that comes immediately to mind.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/10/am...law/index.html |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
21st August 2017, 03:15 PM | #276 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
Any others?
I'm just wondering if you're making a sweeping generalisation based on a minority, that's all. You have a habit I've observed of taking an example of something bad that is only occasionally associated with the church and arguing as though that represents the church as a whole. As far as I know, most predominantly Catholic countries do not imprison women for seeking an abortion, despite what you have quoted from the Catechism - which is not the law of any country except perhaps for one. Of course, I could be wrong about that. If you can demonstrate that a representative majority of predominantly Catholic countries do actually have this in their legal code, I will withdraw. |
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
21st August 2017, 03:45 PM | #277 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Here are some others and I would thank you not to make comments about my habits.
Quote:
http://www.businessinsider.com/count...s-2016-12?IR=T An alarming figure:
Quote:
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
21st August 2017, 03:58 PM | #278 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
El Salvador: 6,377,195
Malta: 445,426 The Vatican: 1,000 The Dominican Republic: 10,783,574 Nicaragua: 6,167,237 Total population: 23,774,432. Total number of Catholics in the world: 1,265,000,000 (estimated) The countries you cite make up approximately 0.018% of Catholics in the world. You can check my maths if you like. Yet you're using this 0.018% as though it is representative of Catholicism as a whole. Do you really think that's fair? |
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
21st August 2017, 04:27 PM | #279 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Now you are the one who seems to be in a habit of implying others are saying something they are not. I said:
Quote:
The percentage from your figures by the way is 1.88%. In case maths is not your strong point you divide 23,774,432 by 1,265,000,000 and then multiply by 100 to obtain a percentage. Glad I could be of help here. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
21st August 2017, 11:33 PM | #280 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,092
|
Fixed your quote as per Thor2 above. Anyone can make a stupid mistake like that.
You must also remember that abortion is still illegal under certain conditions in Australia. So it probably adds to the stress of having an abortion. And in the past it was even more restricted than now. I would suggest that changes to the law are a result of changes in religious beliefs. Ref: https://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/...lawandpractice http://theconversation.com/still-kee...tion-law-11732 |
__________________
This signature is for rent. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|