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22nd August 2017, 05:44 AM | #281 |
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It is fair at representing the church's views. They are happy to let women die rather than give them a life saving abortion. See the condemnation to eternal torture of a nun who thought saving a woman's life was allowable.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126985072 Here is how policy harms patient care in catholic hospitals https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353977 Here is a priest explaining that the only moral option is to do the most damage to a womans reproductive system http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/...egnancies.html |
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22nd August 2017, 06:35 AM | #282 |
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From that third link:
In this situation, the intention of the surgeon is directed towards the good effect (removing the damaged tissue to save the mother's life) while only tolerating the bad effect (death of the ectopic child). Importantly, the surgeon is choosing to act on the tube (a part of the mother's body) rather than directly on the child. Additionally, the child's death is not the means via which the cure occurs. If a large tumor, instead of a baby, were present in the tube, the same curative procedure would be employed. It is tubal removal, not the subsequent death of the baby, that is curative for the mother's condition. Hilarious watching the hoops of rationalization these guys go through. |
22nd August 2017, 07:04 AM | #283 |
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That is basic catholic medical doctrine. You can not abort the fetus no matter what. So in other situations you get a hysterectomy rather than an abortion to save your life.
It is almost as if religion should not be dictating medical care, but that is right out when 14.5% of hospitals are catholic and in some areas you only have them as your only option. So be careful where you are living while female. |
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22nd August 2017, 07:22 AM | #284 |
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The average age of nuns is increasing at almost one year per year. I have a relative who is a nun, and there have been some years the past couple of decades where they have had 0 novitiates. They have even taken to advertising on billboards. When they retire to the mother house, they turn their cars into the car pool, which is growing quickly as there is nobody else out there who needs one. They have stopped buying new cars and one just gets a new-ish one from the pool when theirs is old. |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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22nd August 2017, 08:23 AM | #285 |
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Yet they ARE aborting the fetus. Somehow they think if they take surrounding tissue with it, that somehow hides it?
I'm not even judging their morals, it is the bizarre logic I can't wrap my head around. I remember having a massive debate on another side with a lady who thought they rhythm method was ok but condoms were not. "Honey, lets not have sex tonight because science tells us this time in your cycle you are not likely to get pregnant." or "Honey lets have sex tonight because science tells us this time in your cycle you are not likely to get pregnant." is ok, but "Honey, lets wear a condom tonight because I don't want you to get pregnant" The intent is exactly the same. The intent is to have sex without pregnancy. |
22nd August 2017, 08:42 AM | #286 |
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Because it isn't about intent or effect, it is about gaming the system god set up, to play by the rules in such a way that you are winning with out breaking the arbitrary effects.
This is pretty common in many religions. Like how they declared various mammals fish so they could be eaten on fridays. |
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22nd August 2017, 12:11 PM | #287 |
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God can bend space and time so you get pregnant even if you aren't ovulating. God can't be expected to overcome a thin piece of rubber. Or chariots of iron. Thems the rules.
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22nd August 2017, 01:27 PM | #288 |
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22nd August 2017, 02:11 PM | #289 |
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Now here is a question for scholars of Catholicism.
Is there any means by which the Catechism of the Catholic Church can be changed? Can all those guys in the red dresses get together and decide to change some bits to make it more palatable in todays World, or does the Pope have to do one of his Ex cathedra thingees? Can even the Pope do this? |
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22nd August 2017, 02:26 PM | #290 |
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Technically, the Pope can go all ex-cathedra on his lonesome. For example, any pope could go on a solo run and declare condoms to be mandatory in the battle of the beast with two backs, thus at least halving the AIDS problem in Africa. But that won't happen because...
Practically, a huddle of red dresses make the actual communal decisions which most catholics promptly ignore. The Roman Curia has the actual power. The Pope is a figurehead. Interestingly, the structure of the Curia is directly modelled on the pagan Roman military. ETA: Oh. I should add that ex-cathedra declarations are rarer than one might imagine. The last one was in 1950. This means that nothing declared by any Pope since Pius XII is infallible. Nothing. Quite the handy get out clause, no? Even the whole infallibilty crap only goes back to 1870. |
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22nd August 2017, 02:48 PM | #291 |
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This story was posted a couple of pages back, (it was worth a read a second time however ), and The Big Dog jumped in with the following:
Quote:
I asked him to give us details of the source of this information about the overturning of the ex communication but nothing was forthcoming. |
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22nd August 2017, 03:04 PM | #292 |
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22nd August 2017, 03:16 PM | #293 |
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What a wonderful source of knowledge these threads can be. For those, like me, who are ignorant about things like ectopic pregnancies: http://www.webmd.com/baby/pregnancy-ectopic-pregnancy#1
Quote:
Even though ectopic pregnancies are not viable - i.e. the baby cannot be saved. The Catholic Church insists the embryo cannot be removed thus threatening the life of the mother. I checked this out on another couple of sources also and there is no treatment available to save the child. |
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22nd August 2017, 03:24 PM | #294 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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22nd August 2017, 06:15 PM | #295 |
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According to Wikipedia:
Quote:
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23rd August 2017, 12:29 AM | #296 |
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Thanks for that oh pumpkin thrower. One has to wonder about the decision making within the Catholic Church. This woman, (this good woman), is dealt with most harshly with a latae sententiae, or automatic, excommunication. And then some other shmuck comes along and cancels it out? How is this squared of with the higher authorities? Good to hear that:
Quote:
A superior moral ethic than that of the Catholic Church prevails. |
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23rd August 2017, 04:44 AM | #297 |
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And with the 9 year old girl in Brazil it seems unclear if the mother and doctors are excomunicated or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_B..._abortion_case It seems to be the churches official position that maybe they are under the idea that anyone involved in an abortion is excommunicated, but not specifically. And such a thing is just a distraction anyway. So apparently being excommunicated and tortured in hell for eternity is not a big deal in the catholic church anymore. |
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23rd August 2017, 02:36 PM | #298 |
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Well it seems to be open and shut as far as the Catechism of the Catholic Church is concerned - excommunication that is. Mind you the Catholic clergy are showing some fancy footwork of late in dancing around these issues. I wonder how steadfast the belief is among Catholics (even priests) about this childish nonsense of being tortured in Hell for eternity. I have heard other Christians talk about Hell as just a place were god isn't. If that's so it would suit me fine. |
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5th October 2017, 09:58 PM | #299 |
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Well there has been another hearing in the state versus Cardinal Pell saga.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-0...ations/9021596 In March next year there will be a committal hearing going on for some weeks to determine if a trail will go ahead.
Quote:
Interesting about the payment of legal costs.
Quote:
I really do hope he gets a fair trial because anything else will taint the result if he is found guilty. |
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5th October 2017, 10:42 PM | #300 |
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I never understood why a committal hearing needs to call witnesses. Just read all the witnesses statements and only call witnesses if their critical evidence is questionable.
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6th October 2017, 01:58 PM | #301 |
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Yes we have file-ing hearings, committal hearings, the trial to establish guilt or innocence, and then perhaps another one to examine impact of the crime so an appropriate punishment can be inflicted. The legal guys know how to milk something for all its worth.
Interesting that Pell didn't have to attend any of the hearings to date, but chose to. I wonder about the latter and have to admit to some cynicism. Did he choose to or was he pushed? Is the fact that the church is not footing the bill for the legal costs significant? Pell could be still living the good life in the Vatican, and if later compelled to come to court for the trial, could have pulled the "to sick to fly" card. That worked before, when commanded to appear before the royal commission. I think the Vatican is distancing itself as much as it can. If found guilty Pell will be a severe embarrassment. He is arguably the second most senior cleric in the RCC. |
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6th October 2017, 07:14 PM | #302 |
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I tend to agree with your first sentence I have quoted. However I have a problem. How can an organisation distance itself from the top brass of that organisation? The top brass make certain decisions and the rest of the organisation then make similar ones. If Pell is found guilty then the Catholic church should be in big trouble, as in will it survive?
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6th October 2017, 07:35 PM | #303 |
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7th October 2017, 01:05 AM | #304 |
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The result is the same. If it is reported to the RCC that he allows certain conduct (other priests abusing children) and still gets promoted then the RCC endorses priests abusing children. It only gets worse. What procedures existed if reports came in alleging priests abusing children? If the procedures were non existent then the RCC endorses this behaviour.
It does not matter how you look at it. If many priests abuse children and the RCC does nothing about it then it endorses this behaviour. Many of the priests involved are dead but Pell is not. No matter how you look at it, if Pell is guilty then so too is the RCC. |
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7th October 2017, 02:21 PM | #305 |
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7th October 2017, 02:26 PM | #306 |
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Surprising as it may seem, after so many exposures of child sex abuse within the RCC, some are saying the worst is yet to come.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-1...-world/8900616
Quote:
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7th October 2017, 04:44 PM | #307 |
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He's in a position of authority. He needs to hold his behaviour to a very high standard, and he has failed to do that. The fact that he wasn't abusing children "in his capacity as a priest" (what does that even mean?) is irrelevant.
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7th October 2017, 05:48 PM | #308 |
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7th October 2017, 05:49 PM | #309 |
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7th October 2017, 05:57 PM | #310 |
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7th October 2017, 06:05 PM | #311 |
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7th October 2017, 07:22 PM | #312 |
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
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7th October 2017, 07:28 PM | #313 |
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7th October 2017, 08:08 PM | #314 |
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There is a mountain of evidence already But just like Abraham Lincoln said: "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." It's that second group that are the worry. Clutching their rosaries and chanting their Hail Marys, they will still be lining up for their wafers, regardless of the size of the mountain - of evidence that is. Mind you the size of that group is diminishing - well in the West anyway. |
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7th October 2017, 11:36 PM | #315 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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8th October 2017, 07:08 AM | #316 |
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8th October 2017, 10:18 AM | #317 |
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
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8th October 2017, 01:47 PM | #318 |
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8th October 2017, 02:37 PM | #319 |
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"Of course" as in so obvious that further explanation is unnecessary.
Of course you noticed that the claims in question are alleged to have occurred long before Pell was appointed to his senior position. I do think it is ironic that people question me but not the person who claims the whole Catholic Church might not survive. |
8th October 2017, 04:15 PM | #320 |
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Typical The Big Dog response. No explanation necessary because, well because it is obvious. Certainly the offences Pell is accused of happened well before he attained the elevated status he has today. If he is found guilty it is an extreme example of what rjh01 is saying. He was promoted thru the ranks at an astronomical rate. That the ones responsible for his rise to prominence had no knowledge of the stain in his past is difficult to swallow. Time and again evidence was given before the Royal Commission that was damning. So many of the Catholic Clergy clearly knew about the abuse by others and yet the response was to cover up and move priests to different locations so they could abuse again. On another note, as mentioned earlier in the thread, the clergy of the Catholic Church have a special status when compared to most other Christian denominations. That the Pope is ordained by God himself, is the common belief of the faithful. This is the One True Church after all, built on the rock of Peter. So the Pope, using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others, who in turn promote those below them. An uninterrupted chain so if mistakes are made the authenticity of the divineness must be in question. This thread is not about if the RCC will survive. We can say with some confidence that it will not, given the number of religions that have not survived in the past. The thread is about the dramatic plummet the church seems to be in at the moment. |
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