|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
8th October 2017, 04:46 PM | #321 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
Anyone notice that indeed no explanation was necessary because in the very next sentence it was made absolutely clear that he knew what I was explaining.
And then, something which we should all enjoy, rather than showing that upper level members of the clergy knew, which was of course what was the original claim to be proven, we get a "it is difficult to swallow" can you smell what the hypocrisy is cooking! The "divinely inspired" claims are sheer nonsense. Typical gross misrepresentations of Catholic doctrine. Sad |
8th October 2017, 05:57 PM | #322 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,599
|
We need to look at the timelines before we can accuse Pell of participating in the cover-ups.
I don't know if there's any evidence Pell himself moved bad priests around his diocese when he was bishop, or if in the decade he was a bishop he even had to deal with any accusations of the priests that were under his watch. There have been accusations against Pell himself, which he strongly denies. Because they're only accusations, as skeptics we should we not wait for evidence before declaring him guilty? |
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
|
8th October 2017, 06:45 PM | #323 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Yes some good points and he may not have directly been involved in moving priests and other cover up strategies, but the evidence from his own mouth suggest he knew what was going on and wasn't interested. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-0...timony/7216742
Quote:
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
8th October 2017, 07:57 PM | #324 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Have you looked at any of the evidence given by Catholic clergy at the many enquiries that have taken place so far. There are admissions of lack of appropriate action, (i.e. guilt), by many and acknowledgement that the primary motivation was to protect the church. If you missed all this you just haven't been paying attention, or perhaps you just don't want to know. So the divinely inspired thing doesn't gel with you then? Strange, I would have thought as a Catholic you would have been right on board with the ordained by God idea. You have posted that your church is "The One True Church" before. You know ... "Thou art Peter and upon this rock ............" and all that stuff speaks of the credentials of your church. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
8th October 2017, 11:40 PM | #325 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,092
|
|
__________________
This signature is for rent. |
|
9th October 2017, 07:37 AM | #326 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
9th October 2017, 01:54 PM | #327 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
All this talk about goalposts? Straight from Wiki:
Quote:
"The Pope is preserved from error" ....... So you don't go along with this then The Big Dog? How so if you are a catholic? If the Pope promotes Pell, who is then found to be a rather unsavoury character, how is this not an illustration of error making by the Pope. I know, I know, as far as the allegations of his direct child abuse are not proven, the evidence of his lack of action and empathy for the abused is well established. Clearly Pell's primary concern was protecting the good name of the church. The subject of "Catholic Doctrine" is not a secret so even an anti-Catholic, as you would describe me, can get to see it all. Incidentally I am not anti-Catholic but most certainly am anti-catholicism. I think the Catholic people are to be treated kindly and guided out of the malady they were infected with. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
9th October 2017, 02:45 PM | #329 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
9th October 2017, 05:13 PM | #330 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,599
|
The Big Dog, instead of lamenting that a poster quoted Wikipedia, are you able to show that the quote is in error? Sources to Roman Catholic Church documents would be useful.
|
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
|
9th October 2017, 10:27 PM | #331 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
Sure all you would have had to do is read the entire Wikipedia
"The use of this power is referred to as speaking ex cathedra.[5] The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith" Huh. Once. Say, just curious, what did you do to investigate the merits of his claim anyway? I mean you did of course investigate it, right, and determined quite quickly that he was grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, right? Of course you did... but you didn't ask him (the original proponent of the claim and Anti-Catholic... whoops! Anti Catholicism) for, you know, actual support. Regale us then of tales of research! |
9th October 2017, 11:58 PM | #332 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
I was just waiting for you to bring in that ex cathedra tosh. So there we have this Pope who is blessed, (ouch - hate that word), with being preserved from error by God but somehow shuns this ability and blunders on. The "Oh he was not speaking ex cathedra then" crap has been used for centuries to explain stupid stuff emanating from the Vatican. We are the "One True Church" we heard them claim "because we have the true pontiff at the helm". However he doesn't use his pontifical god given abilities much ..... in fact only one time since 1870. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
10th October 2017, 12:27 AM | #333 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
In practice the Pope is treated as infallible in any statement he chooses to make. This was shown by the controversy over Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae. Some asked if it was infallible. They were soon called to order
It is on the strength of this assistance, that Pope Paul VI resolved the grave controversy on the use of marriage which had kept the teachers and the faithful in a state of uncertainty. Submission to this pronouncement requires the acknowledgment of an authority which is based on divine assistance. Although a Catholic might, because of his scientific training or for some other reason, find it difficult to grasp the compelling nature of the argumentation, nevertheless his obligation to obey would be no less. For this duty is grounded not on reason, but on the authority of the Roman Pontiff.ETA Your attempt to inhibit or deter discussion of this issue of Papal Authority by intellectual disparagement and accusations of anti Catholicism is quite shameful and deplorable. |
10th October 2017, 04:38 AM | #334 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
10th October 2017, 08:00 AM | #335 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
10th October 2017, 08:04 AM | #336 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
10th October 2017, 11:26 AM | #337 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,599
|
It was your claim, therefore your burden to supply evidence to support it. You questioned Thor's comment that the Pope is infallible, but instead of supplying evidence for it all you did was attack him for quoting Wikipedia.
It's disingenuous to ask everyone to do your homework for you. A constructive debate involves not only bringing facts to the table, but supplying evidence to back them up. Without evidence, one "fact" is just as good as another. |
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
|
10th October 2017, 11:36 AM | #338 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,599
|
Originally Posted by The Big Dog
Or maybe you were referring to the Cree School Board in Québec? In that case your comment is off-topic, because we're talking about the Roman Catholic Church here and not the education of Canadian indigenous peoples. My real comment: unless done well, posting very short replies does nothing to forward the conversation. Without any explanation your comment is essentially useless. Constantly posting useless comments is one sign of an troll. |
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
|
10th October 2017, 12:16 PM | #339 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
Yeah, it was actually his claim. I did not attack him for citing Wikipedia, I pointed out that the entire Wikipedia article, rather than the single sentence that was cherry picked, destroyed the misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine.
Baffled that people did not bother to read the entire introduction to the Wikipedia article. Oh well that is what I get for expecting that people do their homework. |
10th October 2017, 12:17 PM | #340 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
10th October 2017, 01:48 PM | #341 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
10th October 2017, 01:51 PM | #342 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
10th October 2017, 02:42 PM | #343 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
10th October 2017, 02:49 PM | #344 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,599
|
That is a lie. I read the moderated post before zooterkin snipped it for being a rule 12 violation. It was nothing but an ad hominem attack on Thor 2 for quoting Wikipedia and, if I recall correctly, did nothing to address his comment about the Pope being infallible. If you had put something like that into your post, zooterkin would not have had a reason to remove it.
I was careful not to quote it in my post #330 out of concern it, too, could be moderated or shipped off to AAH.
Quote:
|
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
|
10th October 2017, 02:54 PM | #345 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
10th October 2017, 03:23 PM | #346 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Nuking me from orbit now are we? No you see I am just referring to the fact that it's the belief in the Catholic Church, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, that the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error. I know you are going to bang on about the ex cathedra thing again, but given the Pope has the ability to use divine inspiration, why does he leave it in the cupboard, and only bring it out every couple of hundred years? I may be labouring the point here but the Catholic Church claims to be "The One True Church", as you have said yourself, and one of the foundation stones of this is Peter. Peter, who handed his sandals down through the ages and are now being worn by Francis, was given the "no possibility of error" thing. Why doesn't Francis use it then and effectively disarm himself? Mind you, I must admit, the original Peter did not set a good example when he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed. This was predicted by Jesus himself of course ...... is there a contradiction in here somewhere? |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
10th October 2017, 03:42 PM | #347 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
Fascinating. The claim was the promotion of Pell was divinely inspired, and when proven false the goal posts move.
I already also pointed out that ex cathedra does not apply to promotions, too, but perhaps we will get more blatant deflection, huh folks? Oh well, I don't suspect that anyone is actually going to thank me for correcting the plethora of errors. |
10th October 2017, 06:49 PM | #348 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Errr no, I didn't say that. I was just saying the Pope should have drawn on his non error making ability. I am not implying the big finger was coming down from the sky giving specific instructions on the issue. Maybe I can help out here. Just to clarify the issue if as you are suggesting the Pope can only do the being infallible thing when it is ex cathedra. From the Catholic Bible: Matthew 16:18 "And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. " Matthew 16:19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven.” Perhaps should be changed to: Matthew 16:18 "And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. " Matthew 16:19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven. That is when you are speaking ex cathedra.” Glad I could help with that. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
10th October 2017, 07:06 PM | #349 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
10th October 2017, 09:11 PM | #350 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,599
|
Do try to keep up. For those people following this sidetrack, you just now quoted your post #331. But my comment about "that is a lie," was referring to your post #328..
|
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
|
10th October 2017, 09:15 PM | #351 |
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 7,599
|
Once again we have an evidence-free post. You've said only that it is a "blatant misrepresentation," but have completely failed to show how it is a misrepresentation. Again, don't ask us to do your homework for you. Show us why we should choose your interpretation over Thor 2's.
|
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
|
10th October 2017, 10:57 PM | #352 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
10th October 2017, 11:01 PM | #353 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
10th October 2017, 11:55 PM | #354 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
In 1905, France adopted a Law providing for the constitutional separation of Church and State. The then reigning Pope, Pius X - he's also a Saint, by the way,- expressed his indignation in an Encylical, Vehementer Nos, in which he pronounced upon the relationship between the hierarchy and the faithful in the Church.
This explains how abuses of authority have been, if possible, covered up or exculpated by the highest officials in the Church. We must applaud the recent welcome signs of change in this area. Here is what St Pius X told the French, not in the Middle Ages, but at the beginning of the twentieth century: It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body only rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end; the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors. |
11th October 2017, 07:11 AM | #355 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
|
11th October 2017, 07:27 AM | #356 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
Why should any non-believer attend to the verse anyway? Only people already in the Church believe that what Jesus said to Peter in 33 AD has anything to do with a political decision made in 1870 AD by a person such as Pius IX.
If Peter had been alive in Rome that year, he would have just been emerging from the Roman GhettoWP in which Pius compelled Jews to reside up to the moment when he was belatedly deposed by the Kingdom of Italy. You know how Pius treated Jews. Or if you don't I will remind you about the Mortara caseWP. Infallible? |
11th October 2017, 07:28 AM | #357 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Which actual Catholic bible? There are several.
In any event, have a whole hatload of different versions: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2016:19 Pick one you prefer and tell us all why. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
11th October 2017, 12:06 PM | #358 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
|
Um, you might want to direct that question to the person quoting scripture in the first place to "support" a bastardized and completely false assertion about Catholic doctrine that the Popewas "using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others"
Which was subsequently falsely denied, and which fact was curiously was not addressed by any fellow travelers. Our atheism, right or wrong, huh folks? |
11th October 2017, 12:54 PM | #359 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
11th October 2017, 01:41 PM | #360 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Don't know why you are splitting hairs about this. The version you have quoted says the same thing as the one I did essentially. Here's another I found from a Catholic website:
Quote:
Now which of these is the real thing then? I would assume the Pope would have a look at different translations and give the nod if they were correct. Hang on though ....... if he were not doing his ex cathedra thing (which he does very sparingly), his opinion would not hold that much weight would it? |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|