IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th January 2019, 03:10 PM   #81
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Cult actions ......... hummm. Can you point to an authority that defines these? I see arth has had a bash at putting together a list which was comprehensively answered by Hellbound ^.

Don't see much difference between Jim Jones and the local preacher to be honest.
I've generally seen this phrased as "Cult like behavior" or "cult like features"

There's lots of lists and most groups and organizations exhibit some cult like features. Unfortunately most interested parties tend to have a pretty obvious bias. Traditional churches and anti-cult activists, that doesn't mean the lists aren't useful they just need to be taken with a grain of salt.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2019, 03:33 PM   #82
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I've generally seen this phrased as "Cult like behavior" or "cult like features"

There's lots of lists and most groups and organizations exhibit some cult like features. Unfortunately most interested parties tend to have a pretty obvious bias. Traditional churches and anti-cult activists, that doesn't mean the lists aren't useful they just need to be taken with a grain of salt.

I find it all to be somewhat meaningless to be honest.

I detailed an account of how hundreds of children were sacrificed some hundreds of years ago in Peru in another thread. Is this cult like behaviour? In spite of the fact that belief in a god who wanted this sacrifice was mainstream?

We can also look at the bloody history of the Catholic Church. Do we really have to wrestle with the idea that all those executions were results of other than cult like beliefs?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2019, 05:31 PM   #83
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I think they'd be right, it is really a matter of degree. A large degree, yes, but the basic ideas are the same, just carried to extremes in cults. For example, to borrow from your earlier list of cult traits and apply to Christianity:
Most of the rest of your post is an examination of how Christianity differs from my admittedly incomplete list of features. Jesus is dead. The Pope's influence has faded. Separation isn't enforced. You're also treating Christianity as though it is just a single thing. There are absolutely Christian sects that are more cult-like than other Christian sects (the Exclusive Brethren comes immediately to mind). But I don't think it's correct to label all of Christianity as a cult, as though there is one single thing.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2019, 05:33 PM   #84
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I find it all to be somewhat meaningless to be honest.
Of course you do. No offense intended, but I think you believe that all religion is meaningless nonsense anyway, right? So what does it matter what flavour of meaningless nonsense you're talking about? It's all worthless.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2019, 07:36 PM   #85
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Of course you do. No offense intended, but I think you believe that all religion is meaningless nonsense anyway, right? So what does it matter what flavour of meaningless nonsense you're talking about? It's all worthless.

Hey! I'm starting to win you around arth.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2019, 08:03 PM   #86
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hey! I'm starting to win you around arth.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2019, 06:47 AM   #87
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Most of the rest of your post is an examination of how Christianity differs from my admittedly incomplete list of features. Jesus is dead. The Pope's influence has faded. Separation isn't enforced. You're also treating Christianity as though it is just a single thing. There are absolutely Christian sects that are more cult-like than other Christian sects (the Exclusive Brethren comes immediately to mind). But I don't think it's correct to label all of Christianity as a cult, as though there is one single thing.
Good thing I didn't do that .

Yes, there are differences, I don't disagree. But those differences are of degree, not type. They exist because the cult leader is long dead, it's socially accepted, etc. AS to variations, yes, there are, and I was speaking generally. It doesn't matter exactly where they are on the scale for the different traits, all of them are somewhere on there. Jesus may be long dead, but try telling a Christian that the red text in his Bible says something wrong

My point was not to demonize religion or anything of that sort, just pointing out that it is a difference of degree rather than kind. Just like overeating is a difference of degree rather than kind. Doesn't mean that eating is bad, but too much of it is.

Of course, I think religion in it's current form has problems, mainly because of the focus on faith over fact and lack of critical thought. I don't have real issues with things like spiritual humanism and similar (that acknowledge a need for religion/spiritualism without contradicting reality).
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2019, 08:54 AM   #88
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I find it all to be somewhat meaningless to be honest.

I detailed an account of how hundreds of children were sacrificed some hundreds of years ago in Peru in another thread. Is this cult like behaviour? In spite of the fact that belief in a god who wanted this sacrifice was mainstream?

We can also look at the bloody history of the Catholic Church. Do we really have to wrestle with the idea that all those executions were results of other than cult like beliefs?
Sometimes a difference in degree is effectively a difference in kind and the existence of gray does not mean that there is no difference between black and white. The church on main street that has folks over on sunday for a prayer and maybe a brunch afterward and organizes social events for its members is a very different thing than the group that meets everyday, wears funny clothes, requires members to work in the restaurant the church owns or out in the farm in the back woods, requires any outside earnings be given up to the organization, and doesn't let members talk to their parents. Sure, the Catholics exhibit some cult like behavior, so do most churches but you are free to leave most and free to talk to outsiders in most, etc.

Yes, killing kids is cult like behavior. I'd disagree with the murders under the Catholic church in middle ages being cult like as it was part a of large cultural conflict but that's debatable. Aside from that, religions due evolve and things that start out as clearly cults can become not cults and things that start out as not cults can become cults.

Last edited by ahhell; 25th January 2019 at 09:00 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2019, 09:23 AM   #89
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Personally I find the main problem I have with most religion is the desire for uniformity and the desire to impose it on the members. That has little to do with whether or not they are a cult.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2019, 02:13 PM   #90
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Sometimes a difference in degree is effectively a difference in kind and the existence of gray does not mean that there is no difference between black and white. The church on main street that has folks over on sunday for a prayer and maybe a brunch afterward and organizes social events for its members is a very different thing than the group that meets everyday, wears funny clothes, requires members to work in the restaurant the church owns or out in the farm in the back woods, requires any outside earnings be given up to the organization, and doesn't let members talk to their parents. Sure, the Catholics exhibit some cult like behavior, so do most churches but you are free to leave most and free to talk to outsiders in most, etc.

Yes, killing kids is cult like behavior. I'd disagree with the murders under the Catholic church in middle ages being cult like as it was part a of large cultural conflict but that's debatable. Aside from that, religions due evolve and things that start out as clearly cults can become not cults and things that start out as not cults can become cults.

No it's not an argument that states black is white, it's an argument that states there is no clear way to define a dividing line between different shades of grey. There is no white in the belief in any kind of woo. It's all grey - and a rather dirty shade of grey.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2019, 02:29 PM   #91
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,024
Religions are clearly more socially acceptable, in that a Religion will have no problem calling itself a Religion. But a cult will never call itself a cult.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2019, 03:09 PM   #92
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sunny South Australia
Posts: 6,803
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Religions are clearly more socially acceptable, in that a Religion will have no problem calling itself a Religion. But a cult will never call itself a cult.
Is it an irregular adjective which changes over time?

For example Joshua Smith: magic translating spectacles; secret gold tablets (stored in a hat) that no one else ever sees; inability to "read" the same translation twice... sounds like a cult. Now, after the passage of time, a religion?

Somewhere... I came across an account of the Church of the Sacred Heart, saying that it started as a cult, but over time copied established church rituals until it became part of the establishment.

I'm sure that Steven Fry would say that it's an irregular adjective which changes according to the speaker:

My religion, your cult.
My atheism, everybody else's cults.

__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2019, 03:41 PM   #93
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Changes according to the speaker indeed. The difference between religion and cults is only in the eye of the beholder.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th January 2019, 06:53 PM   #94
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,704
That seems about right. My mumbo jumbo is religion; yours is a cult. (If I am well disposed towards you, or if your mumbo jumbo is too similar to mine, then I may magnanimously concede that yours is a religion too.)
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 08:07 AM   #95
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
No it's not an argument that states black is white, it's an argument that states there is no clear way to define a dividing line between different shades of grey. There is no white in the belief in any kind of woo. It's all grey - and a rather dirty shade of grey.
If the question is, "is ther a difference between religions and cults?" Then that is pretty much a question of whether black and white are different. Sure, all religions are a little off white and most cults are more dark grey but that doesn't not me they are not different things.

I will go back to the demarcation problem then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_problem

"The demarcation problem in the philosophy of science and epistemology is about how to distinguish between science and non-science,[1] including between science, pseudoscience, and other products of human activity, like art and literature, and beliefs.[2][3] The debate continues after over two millennia of dialogue among philosophers of science and scientists in various fields, and despite broad agreement on the basics of scientific method.[4][5]"

An easy example is that at some point, cold fusion went from being science to pseudo-science. When did that happen? IDK. When did Mormanism go from being a cult to a religion, IDK but I think it did.

Last edited by ahhell; 28th January 2019 at 08:10 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 09:47 AM   #96
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,024
Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Is it an irregular adjective which changes over time?

For example Joshua Smith: magic translating spectacles; secret gold tablets (stored in a hat) that no one else ever sees; inability to "read" the same translation twice... sounds like a cult. Now, after the passage of time, a religion?

Somewhere... I came across an account of the Church of the Sacred Heart, saying that it started as a cult, but over time copied established church rituals until it became part of the establishment.

I'm sure that Steven Fry would say that it's an irregular adjective which changes according to the speaker:

My religion, your cult.
My atheism, everybody else's cults.

Again: It's about what a group will be willing to call itself. Religions call themselves Religions without any problem. Cults don't. They deny that they are a "cult". That implies that there's something about cults that even cults themselves know is bad, and so, they want nothing to do with it.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 09:59 AM   #97
Lithrael
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,596
Personally, like OP, I've always thought of the defining characteristic of a cult as the part where you're not allowed to leave, or if you do, the community is supposed to turn their back on you. Many religions are pretty cultish by that metric. Many others aren't. Some are or aren't just depending on where you are and what flavor you've got locally.

The dictionary definition is quite different though.

I think there might even be an element of popular perception being influenced by the sounds of the words themselves. I know a lot of people assuming 'occult' and 'cult' derive form the same words. But 'occult' is its own word simply meaning 'hidden' (as in, occluded) and 'cult' simply meant 'worship' or originally, 'tend' (as in, cultivate).

Last edited by Lithrael; 28th January 2019 at 10:10 AM.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 10:28 AM   #98
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
I'm disappointed to hear that the Blue Öysters aren't actually a cult!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 11:19 AM   #99
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
I think that the word has come to mean the kind of organization that isn't necessarily religious at all but which tries to control the thoughts and behaviour of its members in more or less totalitarian ways: Cult: Subcategories (Wikipedia)
Thus I wouldn't describe the Church of Denmark (Wikipedia) as a cult, unlike secular organizations like the Danish Tvind (Wikipedia) or the U.S. American NCLC (Wikipedia).
Nowadays, some people think that (at least) 25% of the population in the US exhibit cultish behaviour:

Quote:
Janja Lalich, a sociologist who specializes in cults, identified four characteristics of a totalistic cult and applied them to Trumpism: an all-encompassing belief system, extreme devotion to the leader, reluctance to acknowledge criticism of the group or its leader, and a disdain for nonmembers. Eileen Barker, another sociologist of cults, has written that, together, cult leaders and followers create and maintain their movement by proclaiming shared beliefs and identifying themselves as a distinguishable unit; behaving in ways that reinforce the group as a social entity, like closing themselves off to conflicting information; and stoking division and fear of enemies, real or perceived.
Escape from the Trump Cult (The New Republic, Dec. 13, 2018)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 03:53 PM   #100
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Good thing I didn't do that .

Yes, there are differences, I don't disagree. But those differences are of degree, not type. They exist because the cult leader is long dead, it's socially accepted, etc. AS to variations, yes, there are, and I was speaking generally. It doesn't matter exactly where they are on the scale for the different traits, all of them are somewhere on there. Jesus may be long dead, but try telling a Christian that the red text in his Bible says something wrong
For me, I think that if a sect survives the death of its leader, that makes it no longer a cult.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 03:59 PM   #101
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For me, I think that if a sect survives the death of its leader, that makes it no longer a cult.

Not even if the leader is still there as a spirit?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 04:57 PM   #102
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Not even if the leader is still there as a spirit?
No, because as I understand it, the existence of a charismatic leader is one of the defining features of a cult. Spirits and ghosts aren't real, obviously, so even if they still believe in the leader it's not the same thing.

And yes, I realise that this makes Scientology not a cult by this definition.

In my opinion, if you say that Christianity is a cult, you are changing the meaning of the word "cult" to mean the same thing as "religion". A cult is a specific thing - it's not a synonym for religion in general.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 05:07 PM   #103
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
I've been able to walk away from every church I've been a part of.

Every cult I've heard about, it's almost impossible to get back out once you've got in.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 05:30 PM   #104
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I've been able to walk away from every church I've been a part of.

Every cult I've heard about, it's almost impossible to get back out once you've got in.
Not impossible, as there have always been people who have escaped, but another of the defining features of a cult is that they make it difficult to do so, they set up social pressures that discourage it, and sometimes they punish people who attempt it.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 05:38 PM   #105
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 39,057
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Thus I wouldn't describe the Church of Denmark (Wikipedia) as a cult...
You've gotta admit, though, that picture of the head guy in the Wiki article makes him look like some sort of Doctor Who villain.
I'd describe the current adoration of Trump by the American right as cult-like.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 06:59 PM   #106
MEequalsIxR
Muse
 
MEequalsIxR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 536
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
[snip]
I'd describe the current adoration of Trump by the American right as cult-like.
I'd add in the tenacious adherence to the word of Trump no matter how far it parts with reality is cult like as well. So that's two right off the top.
__________________
Never trust anyone in a better mood than you are.

It's a sword they're not meant to safe.
MEequalsIxR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2019, 08:26 PM   #107
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 11,680
But that, again, doesn't really separate cults from religions. In particular, I'm reminded of a specific thing some Trumpers had done that, I commented at the time, was a lot like one of the world's biggest religions.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2019, 07:43 AM   #108
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For me, I think that if a sect survives the death of its leader, that makes it no longer a cult.
I'd say that's a part of it. Basically, once it loses it's initial focus (usually the death or removal of the initial leader), it'll follow one of two paths: it either fizzes out and dies away, or it will start the process of "mellowing" and becoming more socially acceptable/integrated, turning into a religion.

Well, to be honest, there is the occasional third option of remaining a small-scale fringe movement for a long time

But, likewise, you have the reverse processes with religions, as well. A religion can get a charismatic leader that pushes it (or a part of it) back to cult status, or can adopt increasingly socially unacceptable practices to follow the same type of route.

It's a continuum along the same scale. There is a difference between cult and religion, but it's like the difference between a wind and a tornado; same thing, just the concentration and strength make one a lot more dangerous
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2019, 07:54 AM   #109
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Again: It's about what a group will be willing to call itself. Religions call themselves Religions without any problem. Cults don't. They deny that they are a "cult". That implies that there's something about cults that even cults themselves know is bad, and so, they want nothing to do with it.
Meh, mainstream religions also deny being a cult, I'm not sure denying that you're a cult is indicative of much.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2019, 07:56 AM   #110
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,024
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Meh, mainstream religions also deny being a cult, I'm not sure denying that you're a cult is indicative of much.
Try reading what I wrote next time.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2019, 09:32 AM   #111
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,986
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Again: It's about what a group will be willing to call itself. Religions call themselves Religions without any problem. Cults don't. They deny that they are a "cult". That implies that there's something about cults that even cults themselves know is bad, and so, they want nothing to do with it.
No all that implies is that the word cult is viewed as a word which has a negative connotations.
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2019, 01:51 PM   #112
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Again: It's about what a group will be willing to call itself. Religions call themselves Religions without any problem. Cults don't. They deny that they are a "cult". That implies that there's something about cults that even cults themselves know is bad, and so, they want nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No all that implies is that the word cult is viewed as a word which has a negative connotations.

Yes well that just about nails it. The word, and how we view it, is the problem. We all need to think positively about there word "cult" and all the religions will embrace the word as their own.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2019, 03:11 PM   #113
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Try reading what I wrote next time.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No all that implies is that the word cult is viewed as a word which has a negative connotations.
Seem like Darat and I garnered the same or similar meaning from what you wrote.
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Again: It's about what a group will be willing to call itself. Religions call themselves Religions without any problem. Cults don't. They deny that they are a "cult". That implies that there's something about cults that even cults themselves know is bad, and so, they want nothing to do with it.
I apologize if I misunderstood, perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain what you meant. It still looks like it just means "cult" is seen as a pejorative.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2019, 01:12 PM   #114
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,024
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No all that implies is that the word cult is viewed as a word which has a negative connotations.
Sure, I'll grant you that that alone does not constitute the entirety of what differentiates a Cult from a Religion, and I'm not saying that that's the only criteria to consider... but it is an important and interesting difference, because why is that? Why is the concept of a Cult perceived (both by outsiders and by members) as something negative, but Religion isn't? That is something worth studying. It hints that there's a difference in how our cultures, worldwide, view cults and how they view Religions. If we didn't think they were different, we wouldn't think of one as negative and the other one as, at least, socially acceptable generally speaking.

Other more easy to nail-down differences:

* Cults have a living human being as a leader. Religions have an omnipotent God
* Cults are very secretive and possessive about their members, and they're typically not allowed to leave as easily as in Religions
* Because of their secretiveness, Cults behave more like Spying Agencies, monitoring everything about their members and sometimes their closed ones. Religions operate more like social communities where, generally speaking, members are not being monitored and scrutinized.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan

Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 30th January 2019 at 01:16 PM.
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2019, 01:21 PM   #115
wasapi
Penultimate Amazing
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 14,555
Do all religions have one, omnipotent God?


And yes, really, I am that stupid.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2019, 03:18 PM   #116
ahhell
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Do all religions have one, omnipotent God?


And yes, really, I am that stupid.
No. Even among extent religions. Shinto is more about nature spirits and ancestor worship. Hindu's have many god's though I think some versions view them all as manifestations of the one god. Buddhism is sort of agnostic. Buddha basically said gods don't really matter in terms of human salvation(reaching Nirvana) though a lot of Buddhist worship various gods.

There's a strong argument for Christianity not really being monotheistic. What exactly are angels and saints?

And most of the old pagan religions don't have anything remotely like an omnipotent gods, even the chiefs of the pantheons had somewhat limited power and knowledge.

In modern usage, I think cults are distinguished primarily by having one or rarely more than one living charismatic leader, isolating members from society(often including family member who aren't part of the cult and often by relatively extreme means), teachings that are kept secret from the outside world and often the lower level cult members and often a strong "Us vs the rest of the world" world view.

Last edited by ahhell; 30th January 2019 at 03:24 PM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2019, 03:44 PM   #117
Magrat
Mrs. Rincewind
 
Magrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,341
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Personally I find the main problem I have with most religion is the desire for uniformity and the desire to impose it on the members. That has little to do with whether or not they are a cult.
My issue with religions or cults is the desire to impose it on nonmembers. As in, you can't do that because my religion says so.

IMHO the difference between a cult and a religion seems to be the number of adherents, and longevity. The longer a cult survives, and more people who believe it, the more likely it is to be called a religion. Christianity started as a Jewish cult.
__________________
Non ergo nothi tere vos usque.

Magrat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2019, 04:43 PM   #118
xjx388
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,360
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, because as I understand it, the existence of a charismatic leader is one of the defining features of a cult. Spirits and ghosts aren't real, obviously, so even if they still believe in the leader it's not the same thing.



And yes, I realise that this makes Scientology not a cult by this definition.



In my opinion, if you say that Christianity is a cult, you are changing the meaning of the word "cult" to mean the same thing as "religion". A cult is a specific thing - it's not a synonym for religion in general.


I’m the case of Scientology, when L Ron died, David Miscavige stepped right in. He is in total control of the Church and is probably worse than L Ron was. IOW, there is still one singular charismatic figure that everyone is supposed to bow down to.

I would say that what defines a cult, taking a cue from the Latin root, is how closed off a particular group is to the outside. Scientology and JWs, for example, still encourage and enforce disconnection/disfellowship. Your life as a member is heavily dictated by the Church’s rules. Then again, the members of these organizations still live and work in the secular world. But I’d still classify them as cults because they maintain a degree of segregation from the secular world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2019, 04:48 PM   #119
xjx388
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,360
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I’m the case of Scientology, when L Ron died, David Miscavige stepped right in. He is in total control of the Church and is probably worse than L Ron was. IOW, there is still one singular charismatic figure that everyone is supposed to bow down to.

I would say that what defines a cult, taking a cue from the Latin root, is how closed off a particular group is to the outside. Scientology and JWs, for example, still encourage and enforce disconnection/disfellowship. Your life as a member is heavily dictated by the Church’s rules. Then again, the members of these organizations still live and work in the secular world. But I’d still classify them as cults because they maintain a degree of segregation from the secular world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also, again referencing the Latin root, cults tend to have a claim on hidden knowledge that only they (their spiritual leader) know or understand. David Koresh, for example claimed to be able to interpret the Bible stories about the seven seals (and the Bible in general) in a very particular way that was not available to normal people. He was God’s prophet and only he could establish God’s new kingdom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2019, 04:59 PM   #120
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
The standard definition of cult is not so much about belief but practice and how the religion is ran.
I think the "all religions are cults" is pretty much at attempt to discredit all religions with cheap shot.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.