|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
31st January 2019, 05:02 PM | #121 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
Being a cult is not about weirdness of belief, but about how it works as an organization.
What makes Sceintoogy so dangerous is not it beliefs, as wacked out as they may be, but the way it exploits it's followers and the way it attacks it's enemises. Take away those and it's just another fairly harmless UFO nut group. It's it widespread use of coercion and it's behavior that makes it dangerous.' Once again the standard definition of cult is more about behavior as an organization then it is about religious beleifs. |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
31st January 2019, 05:11 PM | #122 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
Historian Michael Burleigh has written a lot about what he calls "Secular Cults"" Political movements that take on all the emotional features of militant religious beliefs except they don't require a belief in the Supernatural.
(In fact one of the biggies in this category, Communism, was violently opposed to belief in the Supernatural). Burleigh points at the Nazis and the Communists as two extremely successful (at least for a while) secular cults which did incalculable damage to the world in the 20th Century. Burleigh has commented on the Trump followers, thinks they are a version of his Secular Cult ( paritularly a belief in an all powerful always right leader) but although they have the potential for mischief,thinks they do not have the potential for massive damage the way that the Nazis and the Communist did. |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
31st January 2019, 07:44 PM | #123 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
|
|
1st February 2019, 07:16 AM | #124 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
1st February 2019, 07:33 AM | #125 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
|
I think Dudalb is correct, and these posts pretty well sum up my understanding of the current distinction between "cult" and "religion".
One of the reasons I think Trumpism is less of a threat than NAZIism/Fascism and Communism is that it lacks any sort of coherent philosophy. There's nothing to latch onto other than Trump!
|
1st February 2019, 01:33 PM | #126 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
I agree generaslly , but not sure that is why the Trump movement is less dangerous then the Nazi movement. Nazism really lacked a cohrenet philoopsy as well. In the end it boiled down to two things;worship of Adolf and hatred of anything it sawe as "UnGerman".
Burleigh main reason for thinking that Trump and his followers, however despicable they might be (and Burleigh has nothing but contempt for them) is the circumstances they are in are totally different;That the US has a strong tradition of Democracy, and the countries where the secular cults took over did not.And Burleigh also thinks Trump is not nearly as clever a politician as Hitler was. |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
1st February 2019, 01:43 PM | #127 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,632
|
When the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement was announced some of the propaganda ministry staff expressed surprise, given the prior attitude of Germany to the USSR. One of them asked how the accord could be reconciled with Nazi doctrine, Goebbels responded: "Nazi doctrine is whatever Adolf Hitler says it is."
|
2nd February 2019, 10:25 AM | #128 |
Satan's Helper
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,024
|
That's the point: Why is "Cult" already a label with negative connotations? In our culture, the label Cult has negative connotations to everyone, both cult members and outsiders, but in the case of Religion this is not the case, even though Religions and Cults are both very similar (to the point that this thread needed to be created to try to figure out their differences) It means there's something fundamentally "wrong" to our eyes with the concept of "cult" that even a cult itself admits is not something worthy of adopting the label. But in the case of Religion, a lot of this "wrongness" is also present, and yet all Religious people are proud to call themselves a religion. Almost as if there was no negative connotation with that label. But a lot of atheists and agnostics and posters here in general would also find it insulting if they were told they're behaving as a Religious person. There's an awareness of the negative connotations in the word "Religion" that they have, and it is sometimes used in forums and discussions as a passive aggressive attack.
I think this has to do in part with the fact that Religion is a more culturally acceptable term, that has earned a sort of respect out of the mere tradition, from all the centuries that it has existed. The fact that Religions and Politics are sometimes closely intertwined (in non-secular cultures for instance). There's something "Diplomatic" about Religion that makes it seem more acceptable in our culture, than a cult. And I'm not suggesting that all Religions are toxic, nor that they are all as toxic as a cult... But our culture seems to ignore the fact that generally, Religions and Cults are very similar and yet, the label "cult" is universally perceived as negative, and the word "Religion" is just a cultural tradition that we just have to respect even if we disagree with it (This explains the whole controversy against people such as Sam Harris criticizing Islam. "No, you're not allowed to criticize Islam. That's their culture and you have to respect it, etc etc") |
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan |
|
2nd February 2019, 03:33 PM | #129 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 536
|
Of course religion is not usually found to be an insult. It is a generally accepted concept found among pretty much all groups of people. Cult may have at one time meant one thing but over time it's use has been shifted to become almost a pejorative. Cult now usually means religion gone bad. If you start from the standpoint that religion itself is not good or religion is bad then the distinction between religion and cult might be hard to discern.
Just as in religious circles the term atheist is not usually met with approval. I know a guy who is one of the mainstream Baptist sects (to me almost an oxymoron) and when informed of Stephen Hawkings passing basically blew it off - he ignored Hawkings and his work because he felt Hawkings had not only insulted religion but worse was antireligious. He's not alone by any means. Is that cult like behavior or sticking your head in the sand up to about the waist? I worked at one time with a very religious guy in his early 20's Holy Roller type and he had all these NOTW stickers all over his car - something I did not know about. He explained it to me day and to me it seemed he had crossed over from very religious deep into whack country. He was a smart guy but very very lazy and completely unmotivated except for reading the bible. He even ognored his wife much of the time in favor of reading the bible unless they read together. I asked him about it one day and his answer was (I am paraphrasing) as far as he was concerned life here was just a holding pattern till he got to heaven so he wasn't putting any effort in. Even if you believe all that it seems an insult to waste whatever talent you were given and not make full use of your given potential. So to me he picked the parts he wanted and ignored the rest. |
__________________
Never trust anyone in a better mood than you are. It's a sword they're not meant to safe. |
|
2nd February 2019, 03:49 PM | #130 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Exactly But even though every possible distinction throw in by the "there is a difference" brigade has been addressed and debunked the "debate" rolls on in a monotonous monologue. Nothing new is added just the same crap repeated, with a decorative frill being added here or there. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
2nd February 2019, 04:15 PM | #131 |
Quester of Doglets
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sunny South Australia
Posts: 6,803
|
I think the single charismatic leader, as discussed by Arthwollipot and others is a distinctive feature.
However, that leads to comparisons with the Catholic church and popes. IIRC, when my former partner was studying theology, one of the distinctions she mentioned, is that the charismatic leader does all of the interpretation of the founding text/s. The followers are strongly discouraged from performing any exegesis of their own. |
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato. |
|
4th February 2019, 07:39 AM | #132 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
Hmmm. Thinking about it, perhaps the best designation between cult and religion is the ratio of fanatics/true believers to casual believers? As this ratio moves towards 1, it is more cult-like.
|
4th February 2019, 07:46 AM | #133 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
|
|
4th February 2019, 12:39 PM | #134 |
Satan's Helper
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,024
|
Yeah, that's a good parameter of differentiation. Cults are definitely more fanatic about their belief. To the point that the word "cult" is also used to define a group of people who are huge fans of a movie or book. The Star Wars Cult Following, the Lord of the Rings Cult Following, etc.
|
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan |
|
10th February 2019, 05:48 PM | #135 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
|
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
11th February 2019, 07:51 AM | #136 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
|
11th February 2019, 05:27 PM | #137 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
It's easy to recognise the far ends of the spectrum - Heaven's Gate vs Unitarian Universalist for example, but there's a lot of wiggle room in the middle. I linked upthread to one set of indicators, others have suggested others. All we can really do is tick off boxes until we reach a critical number.
|
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
13th February 2019, 02:37 PM | #138 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
|
Well, they are three that are actually one that, something something ...
Oh hell, the Trinity never made any sense to me in my childhood, when I was (sort of) a believer, and it still doesn't make any sense to me. Nor could I really nail down exactly what the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit, if you will) is supposed to be. |
13th February 2019, 05:18 PM | #139 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
|
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
|
14th February 2019, 11:37 AM | #140 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22,331
|
I don't think that's what it boiled down to for most people. As in, I don't think anyone thought, "I'll vote for this Adolf fellow because he's so in love with himself and hates Russia." (The anti-semitism part was actually throttled the hell down for the elections.)
The more immediate need the average idiot has, and I really mean idiot, is for a simple solution to everything. He or she doesn't want to hear stuff like, if we want to stop the inflation, then unemployment will rise at least at first (cf the well known curve), and then we'll need years anyway until we balance our trade deficit, and so on. He needs something simple and which solves everything. Or at the very least doesn't affect anything negatively, if it doesn't solve that. This can be "bring back the caliphate, and God will solve everything for us". Or it could be "vote for this Adolf fellow, he'll fix everything. Make the economy awesome with his autarky ideas, feed everyone with his de-industrialization ideas, etc." That it doesn't usually have that effect, is usually of no consequence. The average idiot is also always willing to believe that the problem are other people than him. HE is totally pulling his own weight and then some. It's those other guys over there who are totally dragging everyone behind. Hell, even basic human rights, it's those other guys who don't deserve them, or giving it to them is just a burden on everyone else. So any ideas about some strong state (be it secular, or see the caliphate again) putting those other guys in their place is very popular among the idiot demographic. Now it may not mean outright killing them, but you know, stop giving THOSE deabeats medical care, unemployment benefits and whatnot. Hell, cut mine too, as long as THOSE guys get a cut. He's also more than willing to believe that things were much better in the past. Turning back the clock a century or two is always a plausible solution to everything for a certain demographic. Now the exact details may vary, I don't see a huge difference between any such phenomenon in history. Be it Trump, or Il Duce, or Al Ghazali's return to a religious dumbassery that never actually existed in the first place, or you name it, the underlying catering to idiots with simplistic solution is the same. Will America's tradition of democracy save it? We'll see. The caliphate has a longer tradition of tolerance and enlightenment when Al Ghazali and his followers turned it into institutionalized religious dumbassery, but it happened anyway. But we'll see. But otherwise the underlying phenomenon is the same, and it doesn't really matter if it's a cult or a religion. It was a religion in Al Ghazali's case, and it worked the same, didn't it. |
__________________
Springfield Heights Institute of Technology poster child |
|
16th February 2019, 07:42 AM | #141 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,710
|
|
16th February 2019, 12:51 PM | #142 |
Satan's Helper
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,024
|
Cults also seem to operate on a more local level, whereas Religions operate on a broader level (which is why they typically tend to associate with the government in non-secular countries)
So in that way, cults are more like the private enterprise, and Religions are like Government Agencies. Cults tend to, in fact, criticize Religion, thus trying to differentiate themselves from it. A good example is Osho, who was a strong critic of Religion and of the concept of God. The ironic thing is that while I find Osho and his cult really repulsive (especially after watching Wild Wild Country), if you take a lot of what he said about Religion in isolation, it actually is a very sound and coherent critique of Religion. It's just that he wasn't precisely leading the example on how to lead a life based on critical thinking and individuality. |
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan |
|
16th February 2019, 03:21 PM | #143 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 536
|
|
__________________
Never trust anyone in a better mood than you are. It's a sword they're not meant to safe. |
|
18th February 2019, 06:55 AM | #144 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
Yeah, but I think that's more a symptom. That sort of "must contribute" type behavior will increase as the percentage of fanatics increase.
Again, I think this is more the function of a cult needing to be filled mostly with fanatics. It's harder to find those who will go along with that level of extremism in most cultures, and that keeps them small and on the fringes of society, which in turn keeps them clustered in smaller groups. Thinking about this, though, could we consider something like ISIS as a cult? That would seem to be an example of a very cult-like organization that is not just local. |
19th February 2019, 08:47 AM | #145 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
|
The death of Linden LaRouche reminds me that there is such a thing as a secular cult.
Found this list: https://listverse.com/2015/04/09/10-...ligious-cults/ Amusing to note that there are two of those groups started by Maoists. Honestly, I think the local thing is a bit of a red herring. Its probably connected to cults' tendency to isolate its members from outsiders and that they generally start as a local branch of more established religions. That's easier to do if they are all in one place. There are a number of examples of fairly far flung cults. Children of God, Raelians, Solar Temple, Osha's group, etc. |
19th February 2019, 12:09 PM | #146 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 481
|
I tend to think of a cult as being a group one is not free to leave? Or even if free to leave there are significant potential consequences to doing so (or fears of such)?
While a cult will also typically call for cutting family ties, isn't it for the reason of discouraging leaving or alternative views being presented to the cult member? |
19th February 2019, 12:27 PM | #147 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
|
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34–39)
Sounds like a cult leader to me. |
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
19th February 2019, 01:22 PM | #148 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
|
|
19th February 2019, 04:34 PM | #149 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
|
19th February 2019, 04:48 PM | #150 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
Also, that passage doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. At the time, Christianity was illegal and subversive. Jesus was warning his disciples that establishing his kingdom would not be all roses and happiness. Families would be divided and his followers would be persecuted. But it would all be worth it in the end when the Kingdom of Heaven arrives. He was not advocating Christians pick up swords and cast out their own families, he was warning Christians that their families would cast them out.
Or so the standard interpretation goes. I'm sure you'll see variations. |
19th February 2019, 08:03 PM | #151 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 39,057
|
My religion is the one true faith. Yours is a cult, and you are going straight to heck.
|
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
|
20th February 2019, 02:46 AM | #152 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
20th February 2019, 04:59 PM | #153 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
|
20th February 2019, 07:25 PM | #154 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
20th February 2019, 08:59 PM | #155 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
You're essentially making a nonstandard, simplistic interpretation of a Bible passage, but claiming it's those who accept the regular interpretation who are tying themselves in knots.
Interpreting the Bible isn't simple. It's a vague and often confusing mishmash. Passages that on a simplistic reading seem to be saying one thing often say something different (*cough* Psalm 137:7-9 *cough*). It's more complicated than it seems. |
20th February 2019, 09:32 PM | #156 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
20th February 2019, 10:21 PM | #157 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
|
I linked to an article that showed how important it is to not take a simplistic approach to Bible interpretation. Sorry that it was paywalled. It wasn't for me. I'll see if I can find a different one.
ETA here are a couple: https://www.gotquestions.org/dashing...nst-rocks.html https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-...rocks%E2%80%9D |
21st February 2019, 03:07 AM | #158 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
21st February 2019, 06:45 AM | #159 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
Quite frankly, even with the interpretation it's still cult-like. "Your family members may turn against you, listen to me over them." Seems pretty much cult 101.
|
21st February 2019, 09:59 AM | #160 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,661
|
Sure, but its not exactly how most mainline modern Christian churches operate either.
In modern usage, the label cult is much more about the behavior of the organization than the beliefs. The christian bible says all sorts of crazy ****. Do former catholics get shunned by their families? Are former Lutherans threatened by their former co-religionionists? Do Anglicans require believers to turn over most of their wages or work in the church run restaurant? |
Thread Tools | |
|
|