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14th February 2019, 01:38 PM | #801 |
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14th February 2019, 01:40 PM | #802 |
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14th February 2019, 02:00 PM | #803 |
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14th February 2019, 02:40 PM | #804 |
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14th February 2019, 02:51 PM | #805 |
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On the Catholic in free fall thread I posted:
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To which arthwollipot replied:
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So if arth agrees this is pathological (well bordering on) how about those who practice self flagellation? We can progress down the scale of self harm and even into the field of self denial. Where is the dividing line then when we are not over the pathological threshold? Just above or below eating meat on Friday perhaps? |
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14th February 2019, 05:24 PM | #806 |
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Nice slippery slope you've got going there. What about pierced ears? After all, those practicing crucifixion in the Philippines are putting holes in themselves, why shouldn't we define piercing your earlobe, or lip, or tongue, to be self-harm as well?
Obviously there are always going to be serious problems with predefining a firm and exact cutoff between pathological and nonpathological. Each individual is going to be different and will receive a different diagnosis if examined by a mental health professional. Personally, since I know you're curious, and I'd like to stress again that I am not a mental health professional, if you're deliberately damaging your body - by crucifixion or self-flagellation, since those are the methods you bring up - I think it's possible that it's pathological. Self-harm can be a symptom of several different mental disorders including bipolar disorder, body dysmorphic disorder and major depressive disorder. If the Philippine crucifees were to voluntarily undergo a mental health assessment, they might be diagnosed with one of these. But then again, they might not. |
14th February 2019, 06:20 PM | #807 |
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I think it was part of the "Satanic Panic" stuff in the 80's and 90's. They were trying to immunize us (via information) against joining cults, satanic or otherwise.
See: http://weekinweird.com/2016/07/19/wa...occult-crimes/
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ETA: They used to also bring in people who claimed to be experts on subliminal advertising..."apostates" from the ad industry who said they used to put subliminal sex messages in their ads. Also, they'd bring in people who claimed to be adult aborted fetuses who survived abortion and were rescued out of dumpsters outside of abortion clinics by prolifers. Seems in retrospect there was a whole circuit of people who made a living touring private Christian schools, "teaching" kids about the evils of the outside, non-christian world. |
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15th February 2019, 06:06 AM | #808 |
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15th February 2019, 01:28 PM | #809 |
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Interesting bit of a screw up here. You show the post material you are responding to as coming from dann but it was my little gem.
Apart from this you are doing the same thing others have done before that I find tiresome and have responded to elsewhere. It's the "But look, these other guys are doing the same thing" line. They may well be but this thread is about examining whether religious observance is insane. None the less there are many types of self harm that folk do from putting plates in their lips to extending necks. There can be a fuzzy line between religious and other cultural reasons for this but to me it is insanity all the same.
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16th February 2019, 05:07 AM | #810 |
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Actually, that's not a slippery slope at all, unless it is claimed or implied that one thing leads to another. The progression mentioned in Thor's message was about an observer going along the spectrum and deciding where they draw the line between ok and not ok, not some natural progression from doing one type of self harm to doing another.
This is a slippery slope argument: "For if once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination. Once begin upon this downward path, you never know where you are to stop. Many a man has dated his ruin from some murder or other that perhaps he thought little of at the time." -- Thomas De Quincey (Chosen for explicitly mentioning that downward path and not knowing when you'll stop, though it would have been a slippery slope argument even if I ended that quote before that sentence.) This is not: "Both murder and robbery are criminal acts." Same for piercings, self-cutting, and whatnot. Unless there is an explicit or implicit claim that if you start with piercing your ears, you end up getting yourself nailed to a cross, then it's not a slippery slope argument at all. |
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16th February 2019, 01:32 PM | #811 |
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Thanks for the clarification Hans. Must be careful my verbal conflict with the faithful doesn't lead to the blowing up of churches.
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17th February 2019, 06:22 PM | #812 |
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I have no idea how I managed that. My apologies for the messup.
My close friend (remember me mentioning her upthread) informs me that Australian law prevents religious observance from forming the basis of a mental health diagnosis. It is actually illegal to diagnose someone as mentally ill based on nothing more than a religious belief. I have a pierced ear and a tattoo. Would you say that I am insane? If the diagnosing guy is non professional, then the diagnosis is worthless. Worse than worthless, in fact, since it is likely to be directly counterproductive. |
17th February 2019, 06:23 PM | #813 |
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20th February 2019, 02:21 PM | #814 |
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No sweat.
Quote:
Forgive my skepticism but if some shrink has a patient who is convinced his garage is overrun by dragons, (dragons in garages strikes a cord with some), said shrink is prevented by law from diagnosing insanity, if the dude says it's part of a religious belief?
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20th February 2019, 05:12 PM | #815 |
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I'm only reporting what my girlfriend - a recognised expert in the field who happens to be speaking at another mental health conference next week - is telling me. I'm qualified to judge neither mental health nor law, especially for random hypotheticals. It is illegal to base a mental health diagnosis on religious belief alone.
Again, you appear to have completely failed to understand what I said. This is getting to be a pattern. Is anyone else failing to understand what I say? Is it me? Am I explaining things badly? I think I'm being pretty clear. Again, I am not a mental health professional. I do not attempt diagnosis. Unless you are a mental health professional, you should not attempt diagnosis either. |
21st February 2019, 02:21 PM | #816 |
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You can see how my example given does point at the silliness of the supposed legal constraint though ..... can't you?
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Yes well perhaps it does illustrate a lack of clear expression. As I saw it your example was just another of those "Oh, these other guys (or me) are doing it too" thingy. This thread is about religious belief possibly being being madness and some illustrations demonstrating this.
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21st February 2019, 06:31 PM | #817 |
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Doesn't change the law. In Australia, you cannot use religious belief as the basis of a mental health diagnosis. It's illegal. If someone really is mentally ill, the diagnosis will be based on other criteria. And I repeat - it is entirely possible to be mentally ill and religious.
Okay, here's what I said: Apparently you interpreted that as me "guardedly" saying that yes, they're crazy. Despite the fact that I said "they might be diagnosed" with one of a range of mental disorders, and "they might not". I said "I think it's possible that it's pathological". That doesn't mean that I think they're crazy, guardedly or otherwise. It very distinctly and explicitly means that they might be. Or they might not. And that they would have to voluntarily undergo a mental health assessment to find out. Is that a bit clearer? Please indicate your understanding of what I am saying. I'll find it difficult to say "body dysmorphic disorder" if I have to use words of two syllables or less. |
22nd February 2019, 02:01 PM | #818 |
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24th February 2019, 04:32 PM | #819 |
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24th February 2019, 05:15 PM | #820 |
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25th February 2019, 11:36 PM | #821 |
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26th February 2019, 12:06 AM | #822 |
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26th February 2019, 12:23 AM | #823 |
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26th February 2019, 12:45 AM | #824 |
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26th February 2019, 10:03 AM | #825 |
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Can we get Medicare to cover it?
(I realize that major players in this thread are not Americans.) You've qualified your position with more than eight words in this thread, so I know you aren't saying that people with religious beliefs are clinically insane and need social attention. I agree that beliefs in the existence of supernatural, mythological beings is an impairment to the total health of the psyche. (Especially fundamentalist beliefs) Please qualify as well for people like me. When I was in the hospital three weeks back (Nasty kidney stone), I was asked what my religious preferences were. I could have said "none", but that wouldn't have been quite accurate. I said "Buddhist" not just that it would spare me the padre or pastor whoever coming round to wake me up for some unnecessary encouragement and salvation for my soul, but that I do derive a lot of purpose in my life from the Buddhist context. As a Secular Buddhist I don't believe in Reincarnation. I take the various Buddhas, bodhisattvas, wisdom kings, and what not of esoteric Buddhism as metaphorical only for use in the context of certain meditation practices and rituals. I emphasize that Classical Buddhism was a deconstruction of metaphysical beliefs, and that the later "Mahayana" reworking moves Buddhism closer to an affirmation of Human existence. But since the basic Buddhist philosophy of life and meditation practice inform how I live, one could say (and people do) that I'm religious about Buddhism. I have a mystical side about me as well, and it's Buddhism that helped me understand how to ground that in empirical reality. Also if location permitted, I would be weekly attending a Unitarian-Universalist Church. One more thing I've demonstrated in this thread. If I get talking matters of life philosophy, it very soon gets religious (not in the sense of Bible thumping with do's and don'ts. A core thing with me is no dictating to others. I do not like being dictated unto me.) Religion is a tad more than gods and after-life venues. Happily it's more than fundamental dogmas and adherence to legalistic perspectives. And one can be "spiritual" without the supernatural. (Please note that I put the word "spiritual" in quotes.) So I confess to being religious and holding some functional beliefs specific to the Buddhist tradition that aren't supernatural. I would laugh if someone declared me mentally unfit for in anyway identifying with religion. But have I been mentally unfit, especially in my youth when I was a Christian Theist? Yes. Here's the context: I'm not physically fit. The unhealthy drinking of sodas and colas was likely a contributing factor to my kidney stone. A not so healthy diet keeps acid reflux as an issue. In the same sense, beliefs can keep a person mentally unfit to varying degrees up to even clinical illness. But belief can go both ways. As I said in a previous comment, one of my college friends is kept from going off the rails by his belief in Jesus Christ. Yes. He's substituted another type of addiction for drugs, alcohol, and negativity. But it's not as harmful an addiction for him. I don't think he'll ever be able to walk without his crutch or maybe it will become just a cane. But I have no reason to try to reform him. Beliefs not rooted in empirical reality can keep a person psychologically unfit up to even, but not necessarily, a clinical illness (1. I'm dammed long-winded. 2. I'm still drinking diet sodas.) |
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26th February 2019, 11:07 AM | #826 |
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26th February 2019, 01:44 PM | #827 |
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Looks like a statement given with authority to me rather than an argument. Your argument to back up this statement consisted of references to a manual, (the authority of which was questioned by others), and references to the opinion of another who had some, not clearly specified, authority. You also indicated non professionals should not be making diagnosis, while identifying yourself as being in that number, and simultaneously giving us the benefit of your knowledge, about the nature and identification of mental disorder. |
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26th February 2019, 01:59 PM | #828 |
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Belief that an invisible, magical, all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, paranormal/supernatural super-wizard (aka - a god) actually exists when there isn’t a single piece of credible evidence that such a thing does, could or should exist, is a form of mental insanity (not a sane belief). No less a form of insanity than a mind that believes fantasy characters like Harry Potter or Merlin actually exist.
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26th February 2019, 02:16 PM | #829 |
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26th February 2019, 02:46 PM | #830 |
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26th February 2019, 05:25 PM | #831 |
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10th March 2019, 12:36 AM | #832 |
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For the record, it's not just Christians who engage in such pathological, misdirected piety. During the nine-day Phuket Vegetarian Festival, some pious Buddhists torture themselves in order to redirect bad luck and misfortune away from their communities and ensure a year of prosperity.
https://www.phuket101.net/phuket-vegetarian-festival/ |
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10th March 2019, 06:38 PM | #833 |
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Religious self-harm is uncommon, but hardly unique to any specific region or sect.
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11th March 2019, 01:37 PM | #834 |
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Certainly there are nutters in every religion. Having lived in Thailand for over 6 years, I noticed that most people were not very serious, about reverent observation. Luck and merit do command the attention of most however. Bad luck to do or say this and good luck to be had, if this or that is said or done. Being high on merit will secure good luck, and doing things like giving food to the monks when they pass your door, gets you lots of merit. Talking about road safety issues is sure to bring you bad luck, and most likely an accident will result from it. Road accidents are because of bad luck, which in turn is the result of the unfortunate being low in merit. The road toll in Thailand is horrendous. |
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11th March 2019, 01:39 PM | #835 |
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11th March 2019, 06:01 PM | #836 |
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11th March 2019, 06:29 PM | #837 |
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Do you really think that nailing an immortal son of a God that can perform magic and miracles would actually cause that son/god any harm? Hell, the guy wasn’t even adversely affected by death. And given it was the will of this God to have his son sacrificed in the first place, then it couldn't have been “against their will” in the slightest. Exactly the opposite in fact.
If you believe the silly JC fantasy myth has any basis in reality, are you still claiming to be an atheist? |
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11th March 2019, 06:39 PM | #838 |
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11th March 2019, 06:41 PM | #839 |
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11th March 2019, 06:54 PM | #840 |
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