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21st December 2018, 10:18 AM | #81 |
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In this context, “to believe” means “to accept something as true in the absence of evidence.”
When I see the visibly religious walking around, say orthodox Jews in funny hats and hairdos, or Muslim ladies bundled to the eyes in 90F weather, or Catholics (sometimes Hindus) bowing down to wood and stone, and reflect on what I know about their other practices – all those prohibitions and observances and deprivations and inconveniences – I feel a sinking sensation: They do that to themselves all out of belief, out of faith in something that’s entirely in their heads; literally, inside their skulls and nowhere else. That may not be insane, but it sure & hell is crazy. |
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21st December 2018, 11:13 AM | #82 |
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21st December 2018, 11:13 AM | #83 |
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To me, this sounds like you are describing sympathy, and an attempt/desire for empathy that you can't quite achieve. I think you can rightfully claim to be sympathetic purely on your say so, but empathy has to bear-out, and in the eyes of the recipient no less. It's a high bar and not easy and I appreciate your openness that it's a struggle in this instance. That's totally understandable. And your openness about your perspective and experiences helps me to (hopefully) empathize with you such that I don't take offense at your use of the word affliction. You've helped me see where you're coming from, which allows me to adjust my reaction and thinking accordingly.
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Hard for me to comment on specifics here, but if this is consistent with what he has been taught and it has been reinforced by his perception of his experiences, it doesn't surprise me that there is a significant barrier for him to critically question it. Or perhaps he has, but his evaluation of the weight of the evidence has lead him to different conclusions than you. Perceptions of experiences tend to be more persuasive than logical reasoning for most people, which is inevitably irksome if you're trying to debate, but not evident of any affliction other than that of being a typical human.
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(also, "strike a 'chord' - musical reference". Sorry, I clearly have a problem)
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21st December 2018, 02:11 PM | #84 |
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Thank you attempt5001 and I hope you enjoy your break while you celebrate the birth of the
Happy New Year also. |
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21st December 2018, 02:21 PM | #85 |
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21st December 2018, 04:18 PM | #86 |
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You think not being able to distinguish between fantasy and reality isn't a significant negative impact on anyone's quality of life? Boy . . . have I got a deal for them!
You think there aren't mental disorders that don't have a significant negative impact on quality of life? Destitute god-believing parents giving 10% or more of their income to their god sect every week has a significant negative impact on the quality of their (and their children's) life. By your "logic", that means these parents therefore have a mental disorder. Perhaps we agree there . |
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22nd December 2018, 03:12 AM | #87 |
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The cause of a belief matters a lot when determining if it's mental illness or not. Someone having actual auditory hallucinations and delusions as a result of clinical psychosis is different from someone whose beliefs, "crazy" as they may be, originate from the beliefs being ubiquitous in their society.
If we had better technology, and we were able to "see" brain disorders like schizophrenia on brain imaging scans, this probably wouldn't even be a matter of debate here. I actually doubt it's a matter of debate among psychiatrists. When neurological malfunction is the cause of the bizarre belief, it's usually not just a few nutty beliefs - the person's entire cognition is generally noticeably off. That said, religious beliefs often probably are similar to mass psychogenic illness and Folie à deux. It's all a form of emotional and cognitive "contagion". Relevant science: https://www.researchgate.net/profile...hy.pdf#page=11
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(MNS = "mirror neuron system") http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
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22nd December 2018, 09:47 AM | #88 |
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If you're looking for Christmas reading, I would recommend Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World:
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted.../dp/0345409469 To forestall a really common objection, it's not about demons at all. "Demon-haunted" was medieval jargon for "this just isn't working right now, I don't know why." Science is about finding out why, and the book is about why science is about finding out why and why it works better than the alternatives. Unlike Dawkins, Hitchens et al, Sagan is much more respectful of religious beliefs, partially because he assumes his religious readers will comprehend the very polite savaging he gives them, an assumption that later writers came to understand was far from universal. |
22nd December 2018, 01:23 PM | #89 |
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For a mind to be able to believe god(s) are actually real, it essentially has to be in a mental state in which paranormal/supernatural have become normal/natural. A mental state that conflates fantasy and reality (irrational and rational). Regardless of the emotionally charged political correctness of defining this mental state as being “mad, stupid, silly, crazy, deluded, insane, etc.”, it certainly can’t be credibly defined as being mentally healthy.
Those afflicted by this unhealthy mental state will obviously disagree (such is the emotionally cloistered nature of the affliction). Merry Winter/Summer Solstice to all . |
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22nd December 2018, 01:44 PM | #90 |
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22nd December 2018, 01:46 PM | #91 |
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Myth can be very instructive, at times profoundly insightful, and provide ethical guidelines in an accessible form, having the benefit of enhancing social cohesion through a common reference frame. For that reason, of late I've become convinced we need a return to statues and columned temples. Time for the the Greek and/or Roman gods to make a comeback. With all their foibles and faults, the protagonists of fable are more accessible and easier to relate to. The Abrahamic god(s) is/are too DC Comic, too overpowered to serve as role model(s).
Brave Helios, wake up your steeds, Bring the warmth the countryside needs... |
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22nd December 2018, 01:54 PM | #92 |
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I'm sure you know the logical fallacy of "everyone believes".
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs aren't in the same category as normal/natural beliefs. These days most "believers" choose misinformation over information. Saying some people ("99.9%"?) have a particular mentally unhealthy belief isn't saying those people are mentally unhealthy per se. Why do these points have to be pointed out again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, . . . ? |
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22nd December 2018, 02:00 PM | #93 |
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So what? What's ever instructive and/or profoundly insightful about conflating myth and truth? That's what I'm actually talking about.
Myths can also be very destructive, especially at times when they are believed as being truths. I have no problem with myths as long as they are recognized as being purely myths. |
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22nd December 2018, 02:14 PM | #94 |
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Yes a jolly celebration of Natalis Solis Invicti to all in the Northern Hemisphere, and I suppose a Mors or Funus Solis Invicti to us down South. Brisbane these last few days has been uncomfortably hot, so I think we're glad to see the demise of the Sun. Of course Jesus did not have a birthday until 350 AD when Pope Julius made December 25 the one. Given his infallibility it was made so I suppose - in Heaven as well as here on planet Earth.* I suspect many non Catholic Christians would be uncomfortable, if they knew the Jesus birthday they celebrate with such enthusiasm, was defined by a Pope.... Best we don't tell them. * Provided he made the announcement ex cathedra that is. Just to clarify for the nit pickers here. |
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22nd December 2018, 02:23 PM | #95 |
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22nd December 2018, 03:18 PM | #96 |
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Last night as I arrived at the arena for my Friday evening game of ice hockey Santa Claus came striding out the door with a jolly "Ho, ho, ho!" I wished him a merry Christmas and went in to get changed. Now I didn't see his sleigh but I heard that he travels by said conveyance and mostly parks on the roof top. The arena having no chimney would account for his use of the same automatic doors we all use. I'm not sure how he was going to get up to the roof to continue his travels but I do know there is nothing in that arc of a story that changes my belief in the existence of Santa.
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22nd December 2018, 03:33 PM | #97 |
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22nd December 2018, 07:50 PM | #98 |
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22nd December 2018, 08:03 PM | #99 |
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Well that’s a total evasion of the question.
If you were watching a crucifixion play or Easter nativity scene you would see Jesus as much and in the same way you saw Santa. If you were at Disneyland you would see Mickey Mouse. So what? Care to actually answer the question? I suspect not . You didn't see Santa at all, you merely saw a person dressed up as, and playing the part of, a purely fantasy character called Santa. Why is that so difficult for you to admit? |
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23rd December 2018, 12:46 AM | #100 |
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I'm not entirely convinced that the belief that most other people are afflicted by an unhealthy mental state is a particularly mentally healthy belief.
Doesn't everyone have irrational beliefs and a perception of reality that is based on their own modelling and understanding that could be arguably conflating fantasy and reality? And what's to say that some paranormal beliefs might not bring mental comfort that another perception of reality doesn't? How could we know that we if we could truly understand reality as it actually is that it would be in any way mentally healthy for humans? |
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23rd December 2018, 01:01 AM | #101 |
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Well no. If I saw a short Arab dude being nailed to a cross with real nails, nail holes, real blood, and a real Roman soldier sticking a real spear through him, I might consider I saw Jesus.
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Black belt and boots? ✔ Long white beard? ✔ Sack full of toys? ✔ A merry "Ho, ho,ho"? ✔ Sliding down the chimney? Building had no chimney. Sleigh and 8 tiny reindeer? Couldn't see up onto the roof from my angle in the parking lot. Based on the available evidence there is a better than average chance I saw Santa. |
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23rd December 2018, 02:57 PM | #102 |
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Why do you require a higher degree of evidence for an acted Jesus character than you do for an acted Santa character? Why is a person merely dressing and acting as a Santa character not also good enough for a Jesus Character? Seems you apply double standards. I wonder why?
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23rd December 2018, 03:20 PM | #103 |
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I think you are mistaken. I used the major historical claims about Jesus to determine what evidence I would accept just as I used the major historical claims about Santa to determine what evidence would suffice. That's not a double standard but it does make the point I was trying for. I also think your inability to comprehend said point is a good illustration of another point pertinent to the crazy that is religion/religious people.
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23rd December 2018, 04:40 PM | #104 |
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Obvious retort - I think you are mistaken.
You only require a person dressing and acting like Santa to be “the existence of Santa”, but you require more than a person dressing and acting like Jesus to be “the existence of Jesus”. Why is this so? Could it be that you believe Santa is purely a fictional fantasy character, but Jesus is an actually real person/god? If you agree and accept that Santa is purely a fictional fantasy character why didn’t you simply and honestly answer this question . . . with - “ fantasy entertainment existence”? |
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23rd December 2018, 04:42 PM | #105 |
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According to the definition, which I posted upthread, if it causes significant negative impact on someone's quality of life, then it is a mental disorder. That's literally the diagnostic criterion.
Or rather, it might be a mental disorder, depending on what other diagnostic criteria are present. Remember, I'm not pulling this out of my ass. I literally copied the definition from the DSM-5. Go back and read it, because you appear to have significantly misunderstood what I have been saying. |
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23rd December 2018, 04:48 PM | #106 |
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Nope. Both require a match to their individual historical description. Your feeling that Jesus is getting a raw deal obviously stems from your hatred of Santa Claus and your perception that he is obviously more real than your Lord and Saviour who is losing this challenge. Your bias shows. How do you live with yourself?
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23rd December 2018, 05:01 PM | #107 |
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Where is your "match to their individual historical description" for the flying sleigh and reindeer? You think an obviously false beard and artificially padded fatness is a "match to their individual historical description". You appear to be indulging in a dishonest game for you own entertainment. I'm not going to play with you - So there! .
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23rd December 2018, 05:08 PM | #108 |
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23rd December 2018, 05:20 PM | #109 |
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Covered that. I am off to hockey again in 15 minutes so I will pay closer attention should I run into Santa again. I'll be sure to seek out the reindeer and sleigh if he makes an appearance.
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23rd December 2018, 05:21 PM | #110 |
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Since they display no other diagnostic criteria, probably not.
Let me be a little more clear. You can be as delusional as you like. You can believe the Queen is a shapechanging reptile, but if it doesn't cause you significant distress, then you probably won't be diagnosed with a mental disorder. On the other hand, if a parent in your hypothetical family is suffering significant distress because of their financial situation, then they may be diagnosed with a mental disorder - but that disorder will be depression or anxiety, not religion. Look, diagnosis of genuine mental disorder is hard. There are a lot of things to consider, and people who are good at it get paid the big bucks. Their job is not helped by spurious armchair diagnoses by amateurs. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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23rd December 2018, 05:23 PM | #111 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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23rd December 2018, 06:02 PM | #112 |
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Delusions are a form of mental disorder. Delusions don’t always cause significant distress.
Not being able to pay rent, buy food, clothing etc obviously causes significant distress. Tithing money you can’t afford every week to a religious sect is the CAUSE of that significant distress/depression/anxiety. I know a person that has an OCD mental disorder, and he doesn’t appear to suffer any distress (let alone significant) from it. |
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23rd December 2018, 06:26 PM | #113 |
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Yes, it can indeed be a cause of one of those things. That doesn't mean that the religion itself is a mental disorder. You don't diagnose someone with religion, you diagnose them with depression or anxiety or OCD or bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder or any one of many disorders listed in the DSM. You will not find religion on that list.
If your friend has been diagnosed with OCD, then a mental health professional with the appropriate knowledge has judged that his way of life is significantly impacted. Are you more of an expert than that person? |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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23rd December 2018, 06:46 PM | #114 |
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In the scenario I gave religion/religious belief IS the cause.
Religion is a deluded belief that conflates reality and fantasy. As such it's a delusion mental disorder. I'm not diagnosing the people as much as defining the disorder. "Significant distress" has become "significantly impacted", where did the distress go? That mild OCD is a mild mental health disorder that may have a mild impact/distress, doesn't make it any less a mental disorder other than by degree. I think your assessment of mental disorder is biased toward the extreme. |
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23rd December 2018, 07:50 PM | #115 |
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If I may but in here. I think this notion of arth's that you have to have a negative impact on you life as a result of you're craziness is a crazy idea - with all due respect to the shrinks arth claims have this theory.
If someone thinks a god, fairy, goblin or whatever is talking to him, he is clearly off his rocker. Even if it makes him feel all warm and fuzzy, and doesn't adversely effect his life, he is nuts. End of story. |
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23rd December 2018, 09:37 PM | #116 |
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25th December 2018, 08:26 AM | #117 |
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What if it weren't religious belief, but a strong belief in something else? Something irrational, with little evidence in favor but much evidence against, something that has tons of anecdotes and cultural expectations pushed upon every member of society from birth onward, something deemed by most cultures to be supremely important and something so widely believed it's taken for granted to be real, and those who say otherwise meet with criticism, scorn, and outrage? I speak, of course, of the concept of romantic love. It fits all the same descriptions of religious belief. It's just as irrational. Yet do we call "mad" the people who believe in it? On the contrary-- most are more likely to call mad those who don't believe in it.
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25th December 2018, 09:37 AM | #118 |
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25th December 2018, 11:23 AM | #119 |
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25th December 2018, 11:35 AM | #120 |
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Let us be more kind to faith, while insisting it not intrude where it should not. Science is a map of reality that is reliable and valid, and by design cannot extend past confirmed observation to remain so. Faith is the contrary, consisting of very little attachment to observables, if at all. What, then, the value? Ideally, to provide shared mythical narratives that provide shorthand for ethical issues, and for individuals, a personal sense of meaning and purpose. Madness? An anthropologist might call mythical thinking part of the human kit, a common trait to the species, perhaps the woo-ish side of the same curiosity and need to explain that science equally taps into. Helps with the "insignificant worm" philosophical issue, a common ailment absent mythically bestowed dignity and purpose.
The problem, of course, is the corruption religion brings to the human mind in the form of excess certainty. When in the world of science and fact we feel we can act on the evidence, such as for guilty verdicts, or more loosely, for deciding which theory best fits data, it is done cooperatively and in a purposefully consensual way to protect against personal and/or observer bias. No so for divine knowledge, such as rules and commands, which often brook no contradiction as stated, or can be taken so. The missing requirement to discuss judgment leads the sole individual, or sects of the like-minded but limited in the knowledge needed to make any such judgment, to an act of hubris, wherein a biased, limited judgment is taken as, OMG, divinely inspired. That bugs me a heck of a lot more than when religion goes anti-science, because in that case, all you need do is throw evidence at the perp and be done with it. |
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