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7th January 2019, 01:34 PM | #241 |
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To my embarrassment when reviewing the posts, I found I had interpreted arth's claim of "causes significant distress ......" with causing causing harm. Not quite the same - my bad. On the other hand I would like to suggest to you arth that your approach of "I know what I am talking about so listen up." is not a good one. You have been posting on this forum for some time now, how has this approach panned out for you before? |
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7th January 2019, 01:36 PM | #242 |
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7th January 2019, 01:36 PM | #243 |
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If Ted thinks he's Napoleon that's a mental issue because one cannot leave thinking they are Napoleon without severe hardship and difficulty in day to day life.
So if society where just to start going along with Ted, telling him "Sure, you're Napoleon" and making it so he stops having to deal with the consequences of thinking he's Napoleon, would it suddenly stop being a mental illness? |
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7th January 2019, 01:42 PM | #244 |
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Saved from what, though? The starting point, before worrying about getting saved, is to show that there's something threatening you/me/us to be saved from.
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7th January 2019, 01:43 PM | #245 |
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7th January 2019, 01:45 PM | #246 |
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And that's why the whole "It's a problem when it becomes a problem" standard.. doesn't really work for me. It's dependent on a third factor that's not a cause or symptom.
It's... like calling something a disease only after the treatment doesn't work. |
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7th January 2019, 01:49 PM | #247 |
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Hi JoeMorgue. Don't think we've had too much interaction on the site yet, but I've appreciated many of your posts. (I find myself frequently looking for a "Like" or "LOL" button like the kids do on this site).
Anyway, apart from the bit about being baited (Religion is crazy is basically the premise of the OP - yes, yes, there is a question mark there, but only after the exclamation point), I agree with you and I think you make the important point that in the context of modern society, some religious thinking and practices can/do seem "crazy". I think that's an accurate, nuanced, and fair point. Just for "journalistic balance"(or some forum equivalent), perhaps we need another thread as well ... something along the lines of "okay, so apart from religion, what else strikes you as crazy". Repeating the same action and expecting a different response could be one sub-thread, though I fear participating in at least some ISF threads (not this one of course) might end up on that list upon reflection. |
7th January 2019, 02:05 PM | #248 |
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Hi Delvo. Yes, good point. I prefer the thinking that there is an opportunity to be involved in something great, ("the Parable of the great feast" sort of idea - eg. Luke 14:15), or even to be involved in the building/establishing of something great (just my own thinking).
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7th January 2019, 02:06 PM | #249 |
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7th January 2019, 02:12 PM | #250 |
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I don't think this analogy quite hits the mark unless your theist "Ted" is living in a society of oddly pandering atheists.
Perhaps it fairly accurately describes what might happen if a theist attempted to exist in the "society" of ISF and everyone was nice to him despite thinking he was quite nuts ... (keep it up though, I appreciate the kindness) |
7th January 2019, 02:14 PM | #251 |
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7th January 2019, 02:17 PM | #252 |
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Normal is subjective.
Factual and non-factual are not. |
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7th January 2019, 02:19 PM | #253 |
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7th January 2019, 02:24 PM | #254 |
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7th January 2019, 02:25 PM | #255 |
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7th January 2019, 02:25 PM | #256 |
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Question is when does holding an irrational belief pass the line into madness.
I think everybody has irrational beleifs in one way or another....including those who claim to be 100% rational....which is an impossibility for a human being anyway. We are humans,not Vulcans. I am a skeptic when it comes to religion, but am not willing to call everybody who believes n a Supreme Being crazy. Frankly, it is that kind of thing that gives atheists a bad rep with many peole who are not particulary religious. |
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7th January 2019, 02:27 PM | #257 |
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7th January 2019, 02:30 PM | #258 |
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7th January 2019, 02:34 PM | #259 |
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Yes I think many Christians struggle with that one together with the camel and eye of the needle thing. The prosperity gospel folk just throw it in the bin I think. The best counter to it I have heard is Jesus was just demonstrating how inadequate man was in getting over the high bar of absolute morality. (How did I do there. Think I would make a good preacher? )
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"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." Always had trouble with the idea of being commanded to love. From my experience love is something that wells up inside you, when the loved has earned it somehow. Jesus (as God) certainly didn't endear himself to the multitude in the following chapter when you unleashed about Hellfire and such. Interesting that Jesus struggled with the multiple wives thing. Possibly hadn't thought it through perhaps.
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7th January 2019, 02:40 PM | #260 |
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7th January 2019, 04:04 PM | #261 |
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7th January 2019, 04:06 PM | #262 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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7th January 2019, 04:30 PM | #263 |
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And while I'm on it, if I'd just said "I know what I'm talking about, you should believe me" then you would have even less reason to trust what I say. Instead, I explain why I have some knowledge in the field. Apparently that still isn't good enough.
Look, if you don't believe me, that's your problem. There are good reasons to pay attention to what I'm saying, but if you don't want to hear me, then fine. Whatever. Just make up whatever **** makes you happy. Just don't come near anyone with a genuine mental health diagnosis. |
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7th January 2019, 04:53 PM | #264 |
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I don't get why people are acting as if the definition of mental illness having personal distress or life-impairment as a component were at all doubted or controversial or just one forumite's personal opinion or such. It's the standard in psychology & psychiatry, and it has been for ages, as shown by the links that have already been given and any other source you care to bother checking. In any basic introductory psychology class at any college, that definition is not just first-day stuff; it's first-minute stuff. It's like having a "debate" or "dispute" over whether or not meteorology involves air.
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7th January 2019, 10:25 PM | #265 |
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Back in the day most explanations would pretty much have to be paranormal/supernatural. And not all that long ago really. I'm not an expert, but I don't think there was some cabal of astrophysicists peddling woo to the masses. I also think religion predates the profit motive.
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7th January 2019, 11:02 PM | #266 |
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I would think that the medical definition of mental illness is pretty important for the subject - unless you just want to use the terms "crazy" and "mad" colloquially which would make for rather imprecise language and concept. I mean I fully think that die hard Trumpists (I guess about 30% of American voters) are "mad" while I certainly don't believe that the majority of them are mentally ill.
Anyway, I would think that religion can be a highly effective personal survival mechanism and it can surely have benefits for communities too. But if that comes with a price of having to deny obvious and self-evident empirical facts, then the price would be giving up reason and that's way too high a price for me (and I think ultimately for humanity too). |
8th January 2019, 01:34 AM | #267 |
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Perhaps motivated by this thread, I've begun to follow my very own online apostle. Very important topic covered in latest sermon. Much relieved!
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8th January 2019, 08:19 AM | #268 |
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8th January 2019, 01:26 PM | #269 |
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8th January 2019, 01:34 PM | #270 |
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It doesn't matter because there response is just going to be a "But.. but not all religions!" to the point we're talking vague hypothetical religions that nobody actually believes in.
Like I said earlier (or in the other thread they are starting to run together a bit) it's like the vague God of vague vagueness doing vague things vaguely in a vague way that we're supposed to be arguing against in every discussion about God. |
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8th January 2019, 02:18 PM | #271 |
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I think we were talking about whether religion/belief is normal, which, in my opinion, is a question that depends on context and is therefore subjective.
You're right that the idea of God as a being is inherently outside the scope of "normal", but I don't really think that advances the discussion much [vide infra]. [in my best "boss-from-office-space" voice] Hmmm...riiiight...gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Pretty sure the "guy with the deluded beliefs" was meant as a parallel to the theist/religious person and the people who could perceive the delusion were the sage atheists. No? Gonna stick to my guns on that one too. Paranormal "lies beyond normal experience or scientific explanation" (wiki). I hold that "normal experience" is inherently subjective and scientific explanation is a growing and changing field. I'll accept though that you could alternatively define paranormal as "in apparent breach of established physical laws", in which case it becomes less subjective. Still not sure how that advances the discussion except to say that people believe in stuff that is not normal, which I don't think anyone is contending. I feel like you might be walking more of a tight-rope that me with that one ... and that's saying something Appreciate the discussion as always ynot. Cheers. |
8th January 2019, 02:49 PM | #272 |
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Nice, yes, you have potential for sure And yes, I think that's a reasonable explanation I have heard too. It resonates with the idea that Christ (and the Holy Spirit thereafter) were meant to be a help, not a condemnation.
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Last edited by attempt5001; 8th January 2019 at 02:50 PM. Reason: messed up separating the quotes and responses. :/ |
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8th January 2019, 03:24 PM | #273 |
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Well you might be talking about that but I’m definitely not. I’m talking about a god being a normal (as opposed to paranormal) being, not a normal (as in usual or common) belief. How can you miss that when you directly quoted it? . . .
The idea of gods is well within the scope of “normal” when defined as “usual or common”. I’m not talking about the idea or belief of gods however, I’m specifically talking about the being (existence) of gods, and whether that existence is normal (as in factual) or paranormal (as in fantastical). Might get time to respond to the rest of your post later - Cheers |
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8th January 2019, 03:40 PM | #274 |
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Again, what you colloquially consider "insane" is not the same thing as being a diagnosable mental disorder. The OP is asking whether religion is a mental disorder, not whether religious people can be colloquially called "insane". If you just want to insult religious people, you are free to do so - I think it's more than a little petty, but you're free to do so. Perhaps start a thread in Humor titled "The insane thing religious people do".
Don't mix that up with diagnosable mental health conditions. Take mental health seriously. |
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8th January 2019, 03:54 PM | #275 |
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It seems like several different conversations are going on. Some are about the vaguest religion you discuss and some are about the real, concrete and quite crazy extremes that are hardly representative of the vast majority of religious people.
I could easily be conflating multiple posters but there seems to a line of argument to the effect of, "Here's a crazy version of religion, there for all religion is crazy." That's more of an example than a definition. I agree, its insane to think prayer will cure your meningitis, that says nothing about believing a god exist that metes out justice at the end of the universe or what ever silly notions people believe in. I don't think anyone is denying that some religious people are or can reasonable be called insane. The Op seems to be asking where we draw the line personally. Some folks seem to think that any religious belief is insane. I don't think anyone here his defending the notion that no religious beliefs are insane though. |
8th January 2019, 04:00 PM | #276 |
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Here’s the post . . .
No! I’m pretty sure the "guy with the deluded beliefs" was meant as a parallel for all guys with all deluded beliefs. The point of the analogy as I interpret it was that JoeMorgue was using it to ask you if any deluded belief has less negative social consequences is it less of a mental illness? Less negative social consequences in this case because society goes along with the delusion. Mental illness cured by social lying. I think the point is less negative social consequences don’t make for less mental illness. Perhaps JoeMorgue might care to clarify? |
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8th January 2019, 04:24 PM | #277 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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8th January 2019, 05:38 PM | #278 |
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8th January 2019, 06:08 PM | #279 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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8th January 2019, 06:34 PM | #280 |
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