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8th January 2019, 07:26 PM | #281 |
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8th January 2019, 07:46 PM | #282 |
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Alright, I'll suspend my presumptions about the interpretation and consider yours. I'm thinking it through as I type here, but I suppose if there are degrees of negative consequence, then it follows that there are degrees of severity of mental illness. JoeMorgue's post imagines a scenario where the severity of the consequence is diminished by societal acquiescence (or as was suggested above, by the society being persuaded to believe the delusion). I think his purpose was to highlight the apparent strangeness of the potential relativity of mental illness. Strange as it may seem when presented that way however, I think the logic holds.
You guys seem to like giving Arth quite the ribbing, but I think he has a good point that there is a bit of an underlying sense to this thread of "okay, most religious people don't fit the official definition of mentally ill, but it would make me feel better if we could just agree it's okay to call them crazy". |
8th January 2019, 07:54 PM | #283 |
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The other trouble with this post is that it is self-contradictory. It first describes a scenario in which "severe hardship and difficulty" are unavoidable, then presents a recourse by which those negative consequences are alleviated. (c'mon, you've got to concede that small point at least)
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8th January 2019, 08:32 PM | #284 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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8th January 2019, 08:39 PM | #285 |
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When I was a teen m woul
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8th January 2019, 09:13 PM | #286 |
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8th January 2019, 10:30 PM | #287 |
So far, so good...
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Attempt5001, think of the Napoleon example or the Ted example as if it were the Emperor's new clothes fable. The emperor goes right on ruling, making fine decisions, notwithstanding his delusion. If the delusion begins to affect his ability to rule, do we then begin to call it a mental illness or similar?
Similarly, we had a user here some years ago who firmly and fervently believed that John Edward gave her a message* from her father. Many members of this forum tried to explain exactly how Edward used cold reading. Despite this, she was -- as far as I could determine by evidence within her posts and by evidence otherwise available on the Internet -- a functional member of society, who raised her kids decently, held a good job, contributed to her community, etc. I would certainly not call her mentally ill or insane in the clinical sense. On the other hand, on that one topic, I would say she was "nuts," obsessed, convinced of unreality, whatever other way you want to express it. You may remember my describing an ex-friend who had experienced being born again via a personal experience. He became incensed when I said that his experience was not sufficient evidence for me, and he in effect cursed me with John 3:18, although he didn't use that exact reference. For me, the three situations are analogous. If you prefer to say that the emperor was duped, the person who believed in John Edward's contact with "the afterlife" is nuts, and my ex-friend is religious.... *The proof of the presence of her father? John Edward said that Dad told him that she'd bought a new refrigerator. |
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Over we go.... |
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8th January 2019, 11:24 PM | #288 |
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I think mentally ill is a pretty non-fuzzy medical concept (though there can be some gray areas). Most people holding irrational beliefs (or for that matter people proclaiming very rational but personally highly dangerous beliefs in primitive theocratic societies...) just don't fit into this category.
Btw, I kind of like that second case - I would be very tempted to call a person in Saudi-Arabia or Afghanistan proclaiming publicly that there is no god and that Quran is pure fiction totally bonkers... I mean he/she would be quite right and rational, but at the same time totally suicidal and dangerous even for his loved ones. |
9th January 2019, 06:29 AM | #289 |
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Irrespective of whether Joe meant it that way -- and I think he did -- it seems to me that the starting point of most religions (most, or at least many, although probably not all) would be some kind of delusion. Either that, or some bona fide mystical experience. Given that we don't have evidence of the latter, I'd suggest the former. (In the discussion in the thread you started, there was a suggestion, as you may have seen, of a third possibility: epilepsy!) Of course, around that core (of epilepsy-fueled visions, and/or delusion, and/or bona fide mystical experience) a whole host of other factors coalesce, to get a religion up and running and flourishing. Or so it seems to me. [Although, thinking about this, I suppose any kind of visions, whether epileptic or narcotic-induced or simply a dream or whatever -- unless it were some kind of bona fide mystical experience which somehow does connect us to something outside of us, of which of course we do not have any evidence -- would qualify as delusion, if the 'seer' took his visions to be part of the outer reality, as opposed to recognizing it as simply a manifestation of his brain and nerves.] |
9th January 2019, 07:55 AM | #290 |
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Technical issues overcome...
Mom would drag five of us to confession Wednesday nights. There was one older woman always present and took forever to do her turn. She did mass every day and never missed on any event. Yet she was not social. She was a recluse curtain peeker and only went for food and Church stuff. I look back now and see she did all her social at the church. As I do most of mine online and have limited contact with most locals for lack of common interest. I simply cannot drink that much cheap beer and talk sports. A form of mental illness if your norm is to be social. A new way to fill that need and get the same results and be normal while looking alone and lonely on the surface. She found her normal in a closed group of people that centered on church. Mine is chatting with folks around the globe on common interests . People I will never see in person yet miss some dearly when they check out. Yet Juan the drunk and his five unnamed buddies I pass daily could vaporize tomorrow and I may not notice. When we all are mentally ill in the eyes of another mindset it becomes a question of how much tolerance we choose to display. |
9th January 2019, 07:59 AM | #291 |
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The starting point of religions wasn't delusion. They started as attempts to make sense of the world and our place in it. That ancient people hadn't developed scientific methods to do that in the manner we approve is hardly something we can fault them for. Being mistaken is not the same as being delusional.
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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9th January 2019, 08:18 AM | #292 |
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9th January 2019, 08:21 AM | #293 |
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We're stuck in a loop.
"It can't be insane because it's socially acceptable" doesn't leave us anywhere to go. Mental... offness whether you wish to define it literally as an illness or colloquially as just... insanity exists both in groups and individuals. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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9th January 2019, 12:40 PM | #294 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a gods existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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9th January 2019, 01:09 PM | #295 |
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Who needs proof when the very belief is so strong?
The sun shining and a good crop on the field is enough proof for many. A good portion of the population goes an entire lifetime not questioning any woo as long as life is good. When war or drought hit home then faith steps up again as a diety saves or punishes them. Both warring tribes will proclaim god is on their side going in but the loser rarely blasphemes the same god later. Even if both sides know the same god.. No one ever notices that little dilemma. |
9th January 2019, 01:47 PM | #296 |
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Okay so here's a question.
If it's not "crazy" (technically or colloquially) to hold the opinion that "Insert Religious Belief X Here* why is it is crazy to act on that opinion? Why isn't "God told me to kill him" not a valid defense in our courts? Why isn't "God hates gay people" an actual factor in how we as a society should decide how to treat gay people? Why should we teach that universe was poofed into existence 5,000 years ago along side... what actually happened? This is all just the myth of Wishy-washy equal nice. Not holding people to standards and never telling them they are wrong doesn't make you a better person. *And actual religious beliefs that actually exist in actual meaningful numbers in the actual real world, not hypothetical cotton candy versions that are so unsubstantial as to be meaningless or tiny minority exception that don't hold social and political power and influence. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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9th January 2019, 02:09 PM | #297 |
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This is something that I find intriguing also and perhaps attempt5001 (As our resident theist albeit evolving) may have an insight into this phenomena. I started a thread about it some time back and little was offered as explanation. After Hurricane Katrina caused so much destruction and death in Florida just a few years back, some of the faithful who survived claimed their faith had been strengthened! Churches experience a high incidence of lightening strikes ( Their spires and location at the top of hills may have some bearing on this.), but the faithful go on undaunted. It seems so contrary to the theme of a loving caring god but the impact on belief is just not there. |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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9th January 2019, 02:20 PM | #298 |
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To believe something kooky is OK. To act on that belief is not ..... yes, a hard one to figure. Mind you in some parts of the World, where religion has the strangle hold, acting on it is Ok. Easy to point the finger at Islamic countries who have Sharia law enforcement but what about a Catholic country like El Salvador? |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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9th January 2019, 02:23 PM | #299 |
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And here's the thing. It's not just hard to figure, it's unfair.
I've brought this up before but I will not do my fellow human beings a disservice by expecting them hold these honest, deep beliefs and never act on them. That's not fair to them. It's too narrow of a rope to expect them to walk. So if I can't leave with them acting on their beliefs, I can't, without reservations at least, condone the beliefs themselves. I won't put people in the position to run full sprint at "the line" and get mad at them when they can't stop in time. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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9th January 2019, 02:24 PM | #300 |
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Some people are content being simple and letting woo guide them through life. Half of rural Mexico is dominated by them.
Most are not hearing voices telling them to hurt another. Others are ambitious and driven to know more and have more. They cannot rest until it is theirs. These folks change the world and achieve big things. For good and for bad. Who are we to change the lives of others with no such ambition and make them unhappy in what they can achieve and enjoy? My wife complains I am too content and I am a bit frustrated there are things I cannot achieve. But I do know how to do some of it. Just takes time and labor. We have a nice big home and eat well but she wants more. I do too just not big luxury items like she would have. It makes her miserable to not have stuff. Yet our poorer neighbors are not miserable. Poorly educated and faithful they somehow have something we do not. |
9th January 2019, 02:38 PM | #301 |
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Hi Guys. Sure. My two cents. I think what gets missed sometimes is that for many theists, the idea of a world without a God (at least one that is on their side) is fundamentally unappealing. So anything they perceive to be evidence of God (even awful tragedy) is encouraging to them as a reassurance that God exists. I think that's why we see the confusing juxtaposition. The idea that there is no God so unappealing that any premise that includes the existence of God, however awful, feels better than the alternative.
8enotto, I wasn't sure if you meant your post to be sarcastic, but you're quite right. If one has a belief system that he feels is "working for him", there is very little impetus to change it, or even to consider changing it. And even if it "doesn't hold" (e.g. the crops fail one year), it can be a lot easier to think "maybe next time" and move on that to try to reevaluate ones basic concept for understanding/succeeding in the world. I think some atheists might say "yes, but science has all the answers now so you don't need to believe in god anymore." presuming this is a more enticing option, which for many (for varied reasons) it is not. |
9th January 2019, 03:41 PM | #302 |
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[for example] A table with 8 adults sitting around, a firearm is placed in center of table. Person#1 picks up gun, checks chamber and clip to check if gun is loaded. Perhaps Person#1 repeats this check several times. Even after verifying weapon is not loaded, will not point weapon at anyone. Person#1 hands weapon to Person#2 . . . Person#2 also checks if weapon is loaded even though Person#1 just verfied it is unloaded, perhaps checks several times. Also will not point weapon at anyone.
Are the above belief and rituals insane or irrational? (to treat all weapons as though they are loaded even though all evidence points to a weapon being not loaded) No, because there are beliefs which go against all evidence (there is no evidence the gun is loaded), beliefs that are actually false, yet the beliefs and practices have positive outcomes. Personally I have no interest in demonstrating that religious beliefs have positive or negative outcomes - only to demonstarte that beliefs and rituals that have no evidence to support them are not necessarily irrational or insane. |
9th January 2019, 03:41 PM | #303 |
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No sarcasm intended. While not logical a "why change what works?" does keep many happier and they still function in society.
If the village needs a shoe maker does matter his faith? His shoes matter far more. |
9th January 2019, 05:27 PM | #304 |
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No, I don't, but I'm not qualified to diagnose mental health conditions. If a qualified mental health professional were to disagree with me, then I'd trust their judgement.
Furthermore, once again I would like to repeat that a religious person may suffer from mental illness, but their diagnosed mental illness would be depression, or anxiety, or schizophrenia, or something else. The diagnosis wouldn't be "religion". |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th January 2019, 05:30 PM | #305 |
Observer of Phenomena
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For the same reason that "aliens told me to kill him" isn't a valid defense.
A person who claims that God told them to kill someone, and then acted on that, may be referred to a mental health professional by the court. Their diagnosis would be schizophrenia (or some other psychosis), not religion. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th January 2019, 07:18 PM | #306 |
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9th January 2019, 07:34 PM | #307 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a gods existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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9th January 2019, 08:39 PM | #308 |
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That can go both ways
Our shoemaker imposes his beliefs upon the village and they get shoes from the next village. The village imposes upon his beliefs and he goes to another village to do business. Respect has to be on the part of all involved for best results. |
9th January 2019, 09:30 PM | #309 |
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Why do people tiptoe around the religious? In this day and age we should be calling them out for what they are. Ignorant bigots who hold medieval beliefs. The people who hold those ignorant beliefs will not be swayed by any argument, they should simply be mocked and left to get on with their delusions. The youth are, in every generation, far less inclined to believe in this rubbish. It wont be much longer (in the grand scheme of things) before we as a species can put this archaic nonsense behind us.
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9th January 2019, 09:45 PM | #310 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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9th January 2019, 10:15 PM | #311 |
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Most times these people are valuable to society in their other roles in life. The butcher, the baker and the mechanic that do the things you did not specialize in.
Their beliefs are or should not be an issue to the primary role they take in the community. Start openly mocking them in public places and watch how the services you need later on get more expensive and harder to contract. True, religion in general is less practiced but it's far too early to start burning bridges now. |
10th January 2019, 03:35 AM | #312 |
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The DSM is mostly a USA reference work, whilst it overlaps with other similar reference works it should not be used and quoted as *the* authority. There is some fair criticism of the DSM as being too USA culturally influenced, reflecting a culture that likes to label everything, that tends to over medicalise everyday life. Other countries such as the UK will primarily use something like the ICD as the primary go to reference authority. Ironically in this thread It appears you are using the DSM as the bible in regards to mental healthcare assessment, Id be very wary of doing that. To use it like that is to really miss what it strengths are. |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 03:49 AM | #313 |
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My familys primitive Methodism made it very easy to understand who was saved who would have eternity in the presence of god, everyone (even when pushed admitting that included the RCs). It was very simple God forgives us all of our sins. Whether we believe in him or not, whatever evil we have committed he has ultimate compassion. My infant and junior schooling was in a Methodist school (but not quite the same primitive Methodism my family was into) so it was strange when I was exposed to the beliefs say of some of my cousins who were equivalently CofE raised. I wonder if being exposed to such different views, I.e. that we were all sinners and god would forgive us all our sins v only the right sinners would be forgiven and some would be punished for eternity made me suspect something didnt quite add up with this religious malarkey. |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 03:58 AM | #314 |
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The multiple husbands thing is dependent on how a particular version of Christianity looks at what it means by heaven. None of the widespread and larger churches doctrines today have you living a life like we do on earth but with wings and compulsory harp playing, heaven is usually defined as being in the presence of god, more a gestalt thing. |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 04:00 AM | #315 |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 04:14 AM | #316 |
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No, at best it is how we practically have to deal with mental health issues at the moment. We really are a long way from having the necessary tools to diagnose and cure mental health issues. Just as none of us are in perfect physical health it is a matter of where we set a threshold for action. As a practical, pragmatic approach I understand it being used as probably the best threshold we can these days but I think it is a very poor threshold criteria. For instance I think it is possible to be very depressed but not trigger the subjective threshold so someone could go through their entire life and never be diagnosed as depressed. It is also possible because of where someone is in a society for as I said earlier for the same symptoms to be considered an illness or an eccentricity and so on. That should not be what determines if someone is unwell or not. That someone does not trigger the current threshold should not be used as a determinant as to whether they have a mental illness. |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 04:16 AM | #317 |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 04:19 AM | #318 |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 04:23 AM | #319 |
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Holding delusional beliefs is certainly part of many descriptions of a mental illness in the DSM. And because of the DSM being such a USA tome they of course have to find a way to exempt delusional USA mainstream religious beliefs from many of their diagnostic criteria. |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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10th January 2019, 04:32 AM | #320 |
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It goes beyond that, the it is that god exists and interacts with the world in ways we can comprehend and observe. The god in the majority of the religions followed in countries like the USA is not a hidden god, it is a god that the religions claim speaks directly to people, that physically alters the world around us in observable ways. The it is not some weird internet created god that no one actually believes in! |
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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