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28th January 2019, 08:00 PM | #201 |
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I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that a living body is no better than a dead one when it comes to free will. The they both essentially lack personhood due to just being a substance like a rock. That free will must ultimately come from things that are people and that thus, to have free will a body must have a soul.
I don't know of any way to prove the existence of free will. The best I have to offer right now is that if there's no other way for a series of events to get started other than the use of something that sounds a lot like free will, then free will or something like it must exist. |
28th January 2019, 08:03 PM | #202 |
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28th January 2019, 08:04 PM | #203 |
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28th January 2019, 08:18 PM | #204 |
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When something is logical it is self-consistent. It should be self-evident that things that are self-contradictory have no way of existing. I don't know how to make it more self-evident than that. The universe must be entirely self-consistent, and since this self-consistency is what is logical, then you could say that reality can't not be logical. And I'm talking the correct logic, not when one falsely formulates a logical relation.
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28th January 2019, 08:19 PM | #205 |
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28th January 2019, 08:21 PM | #206 |
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28th January 2019, 08:27 PM | #207 |
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When I say reality must obey logic, what I'm saying is is that reality must be self-consistent, where illogical amounts to self-contradiction.
Here are some self-contradictory ideas: 1. A square circle. 2. A married bachelor. 3. The largest number. 4. A ball that is all white and all black at the same time. 5. Something that is infinitely large which also has a shape. 6. A straight line that is not the shortest path between two points. 7. A line that is the longest path between two points. Just by examining these ideas you can see that they are self-contradictory, hence incoherent, and therefore impossible to actualize. Meaning reality must be entirely self-consistent/logical. |
28th January 2019, 08:33 PM | #208 |
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29th January 2019, 01:46 AM | #209 |
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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29th January 2019, 05:48 AM | #210 |
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We all hate poverty, war, and injustice Unlike the rest of you squares. Tom Lehrer - Folk Song Army |
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29th January 2019, 07:20 AM | #211 |
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i notice something about the way you reason:
- When someone points out something that seems illogical or impossible in your argument (such as the above) you describe it as a problem that will be figured out - When you find something to be illogical or impossible you assume it must be so and therefore that the opposite must be true. Does this seem like a reasonable way to arrive at sound conclusions to you? So far you have introduced a host of things that are unlikely, unproven and not reasonable. You assert that free will requires a soul and yet neither free will nor the soul have been shown to exist. |
29th January 2019, 07:21 AM | #212 |
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29th January 2019, 07:59 AM | #213 |
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29th January 2019, 09:57 AM | #214 |
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IF your "god" caused the universe at some point, then there must have been a point where god had not yet caused the universe. There must also be a point before that, and before that, onwards to infinite regress. If god is subject to infinite regress, yet can still act, then eternal universes are not contradicted by infinite regress.
Saying god is "outside time" or "timeless" is just an apologetic to try to shoehorn a solution into a problem you created. This particular instantiation of a universe could have popped into existence within a larger cosmos container, even causelessly. As you cannot rule that out, your necessary god......is not "necessary". |
29th January 2019, 10:26 AM | #215 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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29th January 2019, 01:14 PM | #216 |
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29th January 2019, 01:31 PM | #217 |
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Wonder 234, to make your reasoning solid go back beyond the first point.
Prove god/eternal being Without this factually evidenced the rest cannot stand. It is the foundation of everything you want to prove. |
29th January 2019, 03:33 PM | #218 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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29th January 2019, 04:28 PM | #219 |
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Yes. If it was demonstrated that the best explanation for the existence of the Universe was an act of free will then that would also be a demonstration of the existence of a universe creating intelligence.
I have seen a few attempts to do this, none even remotely convincing. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk |
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29th January 2019, 04:37 PM | #220 |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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29th January 2019, 04:38 PM | #221 |
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So to use the cart and the horse analogy .
We see a cart. A horse must also be present somewhere close. Unless the cart was brought by a truck or it had been made recently as lawn decor and no horses were ever required to be near it. But we should choose to ignore all but one option? |
29th January 2019, 05:07 PM | #222 |
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We all hate poverty, war, and injustice Unlike the rest of you squares. Tom Lehrer - Folk Song Army |
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2nd February 2019, 04:43 PM | #223 |
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It's clear that this argument is too problematic to prove anything. I'll set it aside.
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2nd February 2019, 11:39 PM | #224 |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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3rd February 2019, 07:43 AM | #225 |
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3rd February 2019, 07:54 AM | #226 |
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3rd February 2019, 08:00 AM | #227 |
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3rd February 2019, 08:11 AM | #228 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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3rd February 2019, 09:09 AM | #229 |
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Occult theology teaches we have several higher bodies and the soul and consciousness originate in the highest body. The soul body is a formless bubble of divine energy sealed off from the Godhead. Like a bubble in the ocean.
There are also the mental and astral bodies, and the etheric counterpart which channels consciousness down into the brain through the chakras, or energy centres. |
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God. Sri Ramakrishna Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six. Leo Tolstoy |
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3rd February 2019, 09:29 AM | #230 |
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3rd February 2019, 09:33 AM | #231 |
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3rd February 2019, 02:27 PM | #232 |
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It also teaches (although one has to dig a little deeper into the material to find it) that no one can actually perceive or understand the true nature of reality. That is to say, narratives of spirits and planes and karma and vibrations and the Ring-Pass-Not and all the rest are not ultimate truth. They are narratives. They're mental models by which we try to make sense of our experiences and explore different ways of engaging with the world. Some of us, that is. You can navigate successfully by observing and understanding the movements of the Celestial Sphere, but that doesn't require any such sphere or its movements to actually exist as anything other than a mental concept. Have you considered that the etheric, astral, mental, and spiritual bodies, and even the Godhead itself, might all take place within the functioning of the physical brain? It wouldn't be the first time occult theology has proven to be mistaken about what is layered inside of what. |
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4th February 2019, 02:44 AM | #233 |
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"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen |
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4th February 2019, 03:14 AM | #234 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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4th February 2019, 10:24 AM | #235 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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4th February 2019, 10:25 AM | #236 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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4th February 2019, 12:15 PM | #237 |
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Don't 'set it aside'. Trash it. It's completely broken.
You've defined "determinate" and "indeterminate" in ways that exclude everything else. According to your definitions of those words, there's no room for anything else. All events or actions or whatever either 'determinate' or 'indeterminate'. You then later redefine 'indeterminate' as being something that can only lead to random events so you shoehorn in 'free will' as something that leads to non-random events, thus altering your argument mid-stream and blatantly contradicting yourself. At this stage, it's not clear to me at all what you actually mean by determinate, indeterminate and free will. Not only are you not using any standard or common definitions for those, you're using your own definitions that you're changing on the fly in order to argue something or other, and the argument doesn't hold water even if your ever changing premises somehow lead to your conclusion. That's only one example (and which many others have already pointed out) of what's wrong with your argument. It's just a mess of made up definitions, changing definitions, ad hoc arguments, etc. that doesn't go anywhere. Instead of having a conclusion that you're trying to construct an argument around, why not just examine the evidence and see what conclusion it leads to? That's the way logic is meant to work. |
9th February 2019, 05:37 AM | #238 |
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10th February 2019, 07:31 AM | #239 |
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Why must a body or "person" have a soul? What do you mean by a “soul”? Whereabouts in a human body is the “soul”? Why does the exercise of what seems to us like our “free Where did the “soul” come from? For example – we know where the body comes from (ie through a process of sexual reproduction etc.), but where and how did any “soul” appear? |
10th February 2019, 10:45 PM | #240 |
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