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14th February 2019, 06:09 PM | #41 |
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14th February 2019, 06:55 PM | #42 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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14th February 2019, 06:57 PM | #43 |
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14th February 2019, 07:06 PM | #44 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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14th February 2019, 07:11 PM | #45 |
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No I mustn't. But I did, and didn't find it translated very well and the content I could decipher didn't make any coherent sense.
Perhaps you might like to offer a (short) English version here? If you do, a bit of friendly advice - Infinity isn't a number so having an infinite number of lottery tickets isn't possible, and random is merely "too complicated to fully observe, understand and predict". ETA - I tried reading it again and here's my brief understanding of it (please explain if and where I got it wrong) . . . "If you win a lottery with odds of 1 trillion to one you have been extremely lucky. I you win the same lottery every draw with the same ticket however, there must be a god controlling things". A far more credible and obvious explanation would be that the lottery is fixed and the winning is the result of a cheat controlling things (no god required). |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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14th February 2019, 07:59 PM | #46 |
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For your first, when theprestige offered you an explanation, you immediately found a reason to dismiss it. That's not a genuine inquiry. If you are genuinely curious, and that is a perfectly reasonable reason to enquire, then the appropriate response is "Hmm, that's interesting", not "that's invalid because reasons".
For your second, what gives you the authority to decide what someone should or shouldn't believe? For your third, well, I have an inkling that's not a serious reason. And you know what my pick of what should be? I don't understand that bit of your post. |
14th February 2019, 08:04 PM | #47 |
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14th February 2019, 08:11 PM | #48 |
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This ticket consists of six numbers:
111111 |
14th February 2019, 08:16 PM | #49 |
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But in my example, the lottery ticket has a trillion digits.
13857543356654433445433245453454534656778808897868 33727327.......................................... ............................ |
14th February 2019, 08:19 PM | #50 |
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To determine the winning ticket, a full trillion times the ball draw will be made.
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14th February 2019, 08:21 PM | #51 |
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So the numbers of on the lucky ticket that are going to win must come out of a trillion times in a row.
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14th February 2019, 08:23 PM | #52 |
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If the draw of each ball lasts for a second, a trillion draws will last for centuries.
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14th February 2019, 08:25 PM | #53 |
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And every second of the centuries, that lucky ticket will always win. Without a hitch even once...
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14th February 2019, 08:30 PM | #54 |
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If you try to run a machine a trillion times, it breaks.
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14th February 2019, 08:31 PM | #55 |
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But this ticket wins a trillion times without a hitch.
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14th February 2019, 08:35 PM | #56 |
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It's an impossible event with luck. It can't be spontaneous.
There's no such thing as luck. Even in games of chance... |
14th February 2019, 09:11 PM | #57 |
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I think the propensity to believe may have a genetic component.
Beyond that, God belief is not necessarily linked to Bronze Age goat herders. If I say I believe in God and you start talking about Noah's ark, we are talking past each other. I don't know if there's a rational reason for believing God exists, but I believe there may be advantages to acting as if God exists. I've had some personal experience with this. At times in my life I have prayed, only to have some aspect of that prayer realized. Is there a magical being listening to me? I seriously doubt it. But if I ask for insight resolving a dilemma, it's not unusual that I will later find the dilemma sorting itself out, seemingly without conscious effort on my part. > Snipped long example< So, tl/dr: Acting as if I believed in prayer improved my ability to cope with tough situations. It's one reason (for me) to at least give it a shot when all else fails, IMO. |
14th February 2019, 09:14 PM | #58 |
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If there is a probability at all, then it is possible. If it were impossible, the chances of it happening would be zero.
E.g., your dad ejaculated anywhere between 100,000,000 and 500,000,000 sperm cells on the occasion you were conceived. The chances of YOU happening are beyond improbable. Yet we apparently drew the short bus... err... straw anyway. Additionally, if you make an argument from probabilities, you must first show what the probabilities are. What we usually get is various versions of "I'm too stonking stupid to understand probabilities, therefore God", which is not entirely making the case. And I mean, not just for the probabilities. But can't even an omnipotent God that wants us to receive the Word find some 'apostle' who is smart enough to actually make the case for that Word? |
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14th February 2019, 09:22 PM | #59 |
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Seriously - What a total load of incoherent babble, unnecessary posted over nine posts. I'm not going to waste my time trying explain to you why it's incoherent babble.
But hey, let me/us know if you ever find an actual, regular lottery (merely millions to one odds) that has been won merely ten times in consecutive draws, and it has been conclusively proven that no cheating was involved, then we can discuss what other possible normal/natural reason the cause was rather than jumping to the conclusion it was something paranormal/supernatural like a god. You can't credibly reverse-engineer an actual god out of philosophical arguments and ancient texts, and you can't do so using incoherent babble either. |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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14th February 2019, 09:38 PM | #60 |
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Not a gene I have then.
It's not possible to post to simultaneously suit the over 40,000 versions of Christianity, let alone all the other god belief versions. That only explains why you act as if a god exists, not why you believe one does (if you do).If you only act as if a god exists do you consider yourself to be a theist? I can't see any evidence that theists enjoy any practical advantages over atheists, unless you want to define gaining emotional comfort by way of delusion as an advantage. I'm sure you're aware people also take mind-altering drugs to "improve" their ability to cope with tough situations. Are drugs an advantage for them? |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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14th February 2019, 09:42 PM | #61 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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14th February 2019, 09:42 PM | #62 |
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14th February 2019, 09:47 PM | #63 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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14th February 2019, 09:48 PM | #64 |
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14th February 2019, 09:56 PM | #65 |
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"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." Voltaire
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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14th February 2019, 10:03 PM | #66 |
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14th February 2019, 10:07 PM | #67 |
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Well, is it actually even comfort?
Because it seems to me like, yeah, the comparison to drugs is actually apt. I'm a smoker myself, and I can tell you that while I could say that puffing on a cig makes me feel better, in reality by now it just removes the discomfort of the nicotine withdrawal. I.e., the only comfort it offers is from the problem that it created in the first place. And it seems to me like the same can be said about religion. Even the angst alone I see among many believers about how everyone who doesn't get their morals from the same religion is a potential threat, is itself not exactly something comforting. Then they go pray to feel safe from the problem that religion put in their head in the first place. |
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14th February 2019, 10:13 PM | #68 |
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Agreed. The only rational reason to go theistic is if you're a mystic. On the other hand, mystics are (probably) crazy. I suppose another rational enough reason to go theistic would be if you yourself believed the claims of some mystic, about their visions and revelations, without yourself having experienced those visions. (Whether that -- your belief itself -- is rational, is a separate discussion.) |
14th February 2019, 10:21 PM | #69 |
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I don't consider myself anything. I think it was you who responded to me once saying agnostics were actually atheists. That's not exactly what you said. But something along those lines.
I think it may have, or maybe once had, practical advantages, from an evolutionary standpoint. Otherwise I don't see why it would have become so prevalent. Probably, at least temporarily. Just about every culture that has ever existed has had relationships with mind-altering drugs, so there's a good chance we have an inborn drive to experience altered states. There must be positive aspects or the drive would not have taken hold. Similar to the phenomenon of religion. |
14th February 2019, 10:31 PM | #70 |
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14th February 2019, 10:37 PM | #71 |
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I looked into Scientology a few years back, and I saw a parallel between it and Christianity. Each of them tells you that you have a problem. Scientology has engrams. Christianity has sin. Both are concepts that are unique to the religion. You could say that they were made up by the religion. The religion pulls you in by telling you that you have these problems, and that they have the only solution. Scientology has auditing. Christianity has prayer. Religion only solves problems of its own making. If engrams aren't real, there's no need for Scientology. And if sin isn't real, there's no need for Christianity.
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14th February 2019, 10:39 PM | #72 |
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14th February 2019, 10:40 PM | #73 |
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Did it? There are plenty of things in you that didn't as much evolve as any particular advantage, as really there was no pressure the other way. E.g., the fact that humans can't produce their own vitamin C, while most other mammals can. It's not that said broken gene was an evolutionary advantage, it's that it could be mitigated by eating lots of fruits, which primates did anyway.
Additionally, a lot of things didn't evolve for THAT purpose. E.g., there's nothing in human evolution that specifically made us like icecream or a chocolate bar. What evolution actually primed us for was fat from seeds and lean meat, and sugar from fruits and again meat. Then someone discovered that they can freeze a bunch of fat and sugar, and it will appeal to those preferences that evolution tuned for entirely different stuff. In fact, it will taste better than the actual things that evolution built you for. And really the same seems to be the case with religion. There is mental wiring like the Hyperactive Agency Detection or the way the brain deals with, and in fact prefers, Minimally Counter-Intuitive stuff to organize information. But none of that was evolved for religion. For example, our preference to assume agency behind random stuff is more like because the guys who assumed there's a tiger in the bushes when the wind rustled the leaves, well, they only got a scare; the guys who made the opposite assumption got to be lunch. Then some shysters discovered that they can use that for something entirely differen, just like people use your evolutionary tuning for fat and sugar to sell you chocolate instead of seeds and fruit. The tendency to assume agency, for example, was turned from the "if the leaves rustle, there's probably a tiger in the bush" that it evolved for, to some version of "if X, Y and Z happened to you, it's because gods/spirits/magic/whatever." (And, oh, btw, you must give me stuff or it'll happen again) |
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14th February 2019, 10:44 PM | #74 |
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Yes, but what I'm saying is: are you more comforted than if you weren't into religion, or does it really just offer comfort from the bogeymen that it created itself?
The comparison to nicotine wasn't supposed to be just a random example of other discomfort, but a (possible) analogy. Every single smoker can tell you that they feel a lot happier, less stressed, etc, after they smoke a cigarette. But does that mean they're happier than someone who doesn't smoke at all? Well, no. The addiction lowered their mood baseline, so when when they smoke, it's just getting them to where a non-smoker was in the first place. Is that an analogy for religion? Well, I'm very strongly inclined to say it is. |
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14th February 2019, 10:51 PM | #75 |
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14th February 2019, 11:52 PM | #76 |
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I may just be passing through, but... I figured that this might be worth comment. At last check, the biological aspect is based on the tendency of humans to seek agency in events. It would actually be quite abnormal for you *not* to have that "gene." "Propensity to believe" is a reasonably accurate way to have said it, bearing in mind that propensity means a natural inclination, not something notably further, like your answer suggested that you assumed. With that said, that deals with the reality and origins of why a number of people actually believe, rather than whether the justifications are viable and valid. You seem to be asking for viable justifications, though, which... there really aren't any of, in my opinion.
There are half-hearted excuses, though, like "it's easy and comforting to just accept this set of relatively simple and understandable self-fulfilling/bias confirming answers to my questions, and it will help me fit in with people that I want to fit in with." Oh, and for the fun of it... Makes me think of...
Quote:
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15th February 2019, 12:19 AM | #77 |
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But there was still an original evolutionary drive to consume grease, salt and carbs - high-energy foods that helped people stay alive to reproduce. It just became a problem when an abundance of food and lack of activity turned out to have serious health consequences in the long term.
I don't know the earliest manifestation of religion, but I don't think it started out as a power grab. I wonder, who were the first humans to bury their dead, and why? Why did we begin to fear death and bereavement, to the point that we invented immortal souls and an afterlife? We generally assume that animals do not share these views - that humans invented dualism. And I wonder why. As civilization developed and division of labor took hold, then perhaps a priestly class developed to exploit god beliefs and consolidate power, but what was the original impulse? The example you give of "our preference to assume agency behind random stuff" probably does indeed have the evolutionary underpinnings you mention. So, too, may the drive people have to follow leaders, which we do have in common with animals. But who came up with the idea that people go somewhere when they die? |
15th February 2019, 12:27 AM | #78 |
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You don't need a whole organized institution for it to be a power grab. One individual guy getting fed for playing shaman for a tribe of 150 people or so (which is what Dunbar's number allows without ANY further form of organization) is just as much a power grab.
And I should know, I've done it myself. I may have mentioned it before, but when I was fourth grade or so, my parents sent me to a summer camp. Well, before the train even started in that direction, I got mistaken for some kind of wizard or such, for prophecizing that the train will start moving. Well, it was a bit more complicated, actually. The train had a bit of a delay, and I think I made the other kids drink water to make the train start, just so they'd shut up about it. But, hey, the ritual worked and the train started, so here I am, a proper prophet even by the OT rules. Lemme tell you, I abused that... well, about as much as you'd expect a 10 year old to |
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15th February 2019, 01:02 AM | #79 |
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I was never a Christian, as far as I can remember. But emotionally I understand that verse of "Amazing Grace." I went through a lot of trials 20 years ago that left me understanding the feeling of redemption. I felt cleansed, like my soul had been taken apart, steam-cleaned and rebuilt, and not through my own efforts. I don't need to attribute this to any supernatural entity but I understood what people meant when they talked about grace.
I can't give anyone a reason to believe, but I do understand how someone - how I - could become a believer, and it's not something I can communicate well with words. However, I've never come across a religion that I can completely buy into, and really can't imagine what that feels like. |
15th February 2019, 01:09 AM | #80 |
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