ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old 5th June 2019, 06:57 PM   #1321
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
2:178 O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
On the bright side I do not think anyone here believes I am at all religious - and if they do they have not been playing attention.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2019, 07:01 PM   #1322
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Examples:

Quran 50:38 We have created the heavens, the earth and what is between them in six days, and no fatigue touched Us.

Quran 7:40 Those who have denied Our signs, and reacted to them with arrogance, the gates of the sky will not open for them, nor will they enter paradise until the camel passes through the eye of a needle. It is such that We recompense the criminals.


1- God is not tired. You added an incorrect e in that last word.....and he is at best not being an existent thing, just a wet dream.

2- Not rich people, the disbelievers/bad peoples will go to hell.
Fixed point one for accuracy and proper descriptiveness...….
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 04:03 AM   #1323
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"Why the term “We“ is mentioned in Quran?



Since it is not understood why the term “we“ is used in some verses of the Quran, many questions are asked regarding this matter. This subject may be handled as follows; Allah uses the first person singular term “I“ as well as the first person plural term “We“ for himself. This is something related to the linguistic structure of Arabic.



In Arabic and in some other languages sometimes the person may use the first person plural term “We“ for himself in order to express his sovereignty and greatness. However in Turkish ad in some other languages also we sometimes use the second person plural “You“ instead of the second person singular “You“ to emphasize respect and greatness. But it is not as widespread as using the second person plural “You“ for a single person we talk to.



Shortly, Allah is not humble; humbleness is a feature of the human beings. Allah uses this term to express his greatness, sovereignty and mightiness. Quran has been sent in Arabic and therefore there are linguistic features and expressions of Arabic in Quran. The oneness of Allah is the main message in the whole Quran and it is obvious in hundreds of verses in Quran.



Let us underline another point. Allah mentions about himself in Quran using both of the terms; the first person singular term “I“ as well the first person plural term `We“ especially to underline his greatness, sovereignty and mightiness. But when mentioning about Allah as the second person, the second person singular “You` is used instead of the second person plural “You“ or the third person singular “He“ is used, third person plural “They“ is never used. On the other hand it is mentioned about Allah in Quran maybe a thousand times as second or third persons. Even one of them is not second person plural or third person plural. Just as we stated in the beginning; this proves that it is a feature of the Arabic language."



https://thereisnocontradictioninqura...oned-in-quran/


Can someone who knows Arabic weigh in? I know from long exposure to Christian apologetic that claims about the original languages made by people with no understanding of those languages can easily morph into a muddled mess of theology by gossip. The bald faced lie that Jerusalem had a small gate called the “Eye of the Needle” is my favorite example of excuse minded fools putting what they wish the text said ahead of what it actually says.
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 03:44 PM   #1324
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 775
"Errancy; In an affront to 99% of humans world wide, the Bible makes an incongruous declaration that only a certain race, and certain gender, and certain marital status will be in front of God;


“the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth XE "earth" . These are they which were -not defiled with women XE "women" -; for they are virgins.” (Revelation 14:3-4)


Excuse; None available.


Correction: The Holy Quran corrects this limitation of those who have the opportunity to go to Heaven by bluntly stating that Heaven is open for all and any who strive for it:


“If any do deeds of righteousness, - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.” (Quran 4:124)


Furthermore, being with a woman in a marital relationship is actually a blessing, not a defilement:


“Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments.” (Quran 2:187)"


https://quranbible.org/english.htm#_Toc96948618
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 04:24 PM   #1325
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Southern hemisphere
Posts: 7,206
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"Errancy; In an affront to 99% of humans world wide, the Bible makes an incongruous declaration that only a certain race, and certain gender, and certain marital status will be in front of God;


“the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth XE "earth" . These are they which were -not defiled with women XE "women" -; for they are virgins.” (Revelation 14:3-4)


Excuse; None available.


Correction: The Holy Quran corrects this limitation of those who have the opportunity to go to Heaven by bluntly stating that Heaven is open for all and any who strive for it:


“If any do deeds of righteousness, - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.” (Quran 4:124)


Furthermore, being with a woman in a marital relationship is actually a blessing, not a defilement:


“Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments.” (Quran 2:187)"


https://quranbible.org/english.htm#_Toc96948618
My fairy tale is better than your fairy tale.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2019, 05:37 PM   #1326
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"Errancy; In an affront to 99% of humans world wide, the Bible makes an incongruous declaration that only a certain race, and certain gender, and certain marital status will be in front of God;


“the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth XE "earth" . These are they which were -not defiled with women XE "women" -; for they are virgins.” (Revelation 14:3-4)


Excuse; None available.


Correction: The Holy Quran corrects this limitation of those who have the opportunity to go to Heaven by bluntly stating that Heaven is open for all and any who strive for it:


“If any do deeds of righteousness, - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.” (Quran 4:124)


Furthermore, being with a woman in a marital relationship is actually a blessing, not a defilement:


“Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments.” (Quran 2:187)"


https://quranbible.org/english.htm#_Toc96948618
As to bible and quaran (etc., etc.) they were all made up to help convince the
weak minded followers who needed something to cling to and wuv!!!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2019, 05:49 AM   #1327
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"Errancy; In an affront to 99% of humans world wide, the Bible makes an incongruous declaration that only a certain race, and certain gender, and certain marital status will be in front of God;


“the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth XE "earth" . These are they which were -not defiled with women XE "women" -; for they are virgins.” (Revelation 14:3-4)
Yet again you need to lie about the theology surrounding a verse in order to criticize it. This passage is not about who will and will not go to Heaven, but about the composition of a single heavenly choir. What you've done is comparable to claiming that the Koran says only people who are violently martyred for Islam will get to paradise.
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2019, 09:13 AM   #1328
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Excuse; None available.
You have no excuse for refusing to answer my question. You claimed this thread has Christian missionaries in it. Who are you accusing of being a Christian missionary? Name them so they can defend themselves against your lies and defamation.
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2019, 09:53 AM   #1329
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Excuse; None available.
The "excuse," as usual, is that you are wildly misrepresenting the views of people who follow the Bible as their religious text. This appears to be a bad habit followed by many religious people who consider themselves authorities on the other guy's religion.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th June 2019, 01:16 PM   #1330
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,287
[quote=Emre_1974tr;12718801]

Correction: The Holy Quran corrects this limitation of those who have the opportunity to go to Heaven by bluntly stating that Heaven is open for all and any who strive for it:


“If any do deeds of righteousness, - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.” (Quran 4:124)
[quote]

The key words there are "and have faith"

Meaning only believers in Muhammad can be saved. This is what the Quran says, over and over again. Unbelievers are cursed.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 7th June 2019 at 01:17 PM.
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 03:13 PM   #1331
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 775
"Errancy; The Bible allows and even promotes self amputation;

“For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (Matthew 19:12)

"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee: cut them off, and cast them from thee." Matthew 18:8

Excuse; The Bible was speaking figuratively

Rebuttal: Thousands throughout Christian history have become eunuch monks based on the motivation from the Bible. Earlier Christians believed those passages to be speaking literally, thus followed the literal advice. Furthermore, (Matthew 19:12) emphasizes the meaning is literal because it gives the example of those who are born eunuchs and then states those that become like them will have paradise. Although modern Christians may have secularized out of this early Christian norm, self amputation is still a well documented Christian phenomenon.

Correction: The Holy Quran teaches us to preserve and love ourselves:

“And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.” (Quran 2:195)

“O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! (Quran 4:29)

Islam teaches to pray and perform fasting to avoid temptations, rather than the horrid self amputation taught in the Bible.

"And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones" (Quran 2:45)"

https://quranbible.org/english.htm#_Toc96948618
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 04:09 PM   #1332
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"Errancy; The Bible allows and even promotes self amputation;



“For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (Matthew 19:12)



"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee: cut them off, and cast them from thee." Matthew 18:8



Excuse; The Bible was speaking figuratively



Rebuttal: Thousands throughout Christian history have become eunuch monks based on the motivation from the Bible. Earlier Christians believed those passages to be speaking literally, thus followed the literal advice. Furthermore, (Matthew 19:12) emphasizes the meaning is literal because it gives the example of those who are born eunuchs and then states those that become like them will have paradise. Although modern Christians may have secularized out of this early Christian norm, self amputation is still a well documented Christian phenomenon.



Correction: The Holy Quran teaches us to preserve and love ourselves:



“And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.” (Quran 2:195)



“O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! (Quran 4:29)



Islam teaches to pray and perform fasting to avoid temptations, rather than the horrid self amputation taught in the Bible.



"And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones" (Quran 2:45)"



https://quranbible.org/english.htm#_Toc96948618


Still running away from my questions I see. What does the Koran say about cowardice?
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 04:26 PM   #1333
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 20,298
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"Errancy; The Bible allows and even promotes self amputation;

“For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (Matthew 19:12)

"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee: cut them off, and cast them from thee." Matthew 18:8

Excuse; The Bible was speaking figuratively

Rebuttal: Thousands throughout Christian history have become eunuch monks based on the motivation from the Bible. Earlier Christians believed those passages to be speaking literally, thus followed the literal advice. Furthermore, (Matthew 19:12) emphasizes the meaning is literal because it gives the example of those who are born eunuchs and then states those that become like them will have paradise. Although modern Christians may have secularized out of this early Christian norm, self amputation is still a well documented Christian phenomenon.

Correction: The Holy Quran teaches us to preserve and love ourselves:

“And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.” (Quran 2:195)

“O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! (Quran 4:29)

Islam teaches to pray and perform fasting to avoid temptations, rather than the horrid self amputation taught in the Bible.

"And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones" (Quran 2:45)"

https://quranbible.org/english.htm#_Toc96948618
Except in 5:33 and 5:38 where barbaric amputation is enforced.

Quote:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Some religion of peace you have going on there.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 04:49 PM   #1334
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 775
Again:

Everyone is free to believe what they wish, according to Quran. This is the goal of the test world. To confront yourself.

Quran only allows a war of defense.

If you read the full of the verses, you will always see the struggle with the attackers in the defense battle.

Example;

2:190 Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.

2:191 Fight them wherever you meet them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. Do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then fight them. Thus is the reward of those who do not appreciate.

2:192 If they cease, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

2:193 Fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

***********

Here again, He says, fight with the attackers.

But if you pull out a single verse. You make it look like saying the opposite.

And look at:

49:9 And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with the command of God. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.

As you can see saying, if the attackers are Muslims, stop them too.

***

In past , the assailants killed the Muslims, pulled them out of their vatas, or cut them in cross/X shape.

In the past, other spiritualist pagans, such as Pharaoh, did the same.

And this verse about self defense and retaliation.

5:33 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger and seek to corrupt the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off on alternate sides or that they be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this world. In the Hereafter, they will have a great retribution.

In short, crossing is about self defense and retaliation to attacker pagans (Who cuts the Muslims in X shape).

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609989.0
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 02:55 PM   #1335
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Everyone is free to believe what they wish, according to Quran.
But that's not really an operative promise. You claim that you interpret the Qur'an correctly. Others who claim to believe in the Qur'an have interpreted differently and come to different conclusions than you do on many subjects. Clearly there is no one correct way to read the Qur'an. Unless, of course, you're willing to explain -- with evidence -- why your way to read the Qur'an is the only one that's right.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 05:39 AM   #1336
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
You have no excuse for refusing to answer my question. You claimed this thread has Christian missionaries in it. Who are you accusing of being a Christian missionary? Name them so they can defend themselves against your lies and defamation.
Richard Dawkins interviews Saudi Arabian atheist author Rana Ahmad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zncB6hngZg
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2019, 08:17 PM   #1337
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,112
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Again:

Everyone is free to believe what they wish, according to Quran. This is the goal of the test world. To confront yourself.

Quran only allows a war of defense.
Really? Only a war of defense? Let's see...

Quote:
If you read the full of the verses, you will always see the struggle with the attackers in the defense battle.

Example;

2:190 Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
So far, so good

Quote:

2:191 Fight them wherever you meet them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. Do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then fight them. Thus is the reward of those who do not appreciate.

2:192 If they cease, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

2:193 Fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
(bolding added) So they take your land, but you take it back? That's an offensive battle.

Quote:

***********

Here again, He says, fight with the attackers.

But if you pull out a single verse. You make it look like saying the opposite.

And look at:

49:9 And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with the command of God. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.

As you can see saying, if the attackers are Muslims, stop them too.
Wait, you just said the Koran says to fight defensibly. Specifically you said, "Quran only allows a war of defense." The verse you provided states one of the is aggressor. You can't have two groups of people both fighting a defensive battle. So the Muslims who are attackers are either not Muslims or they are breaking the Koran, or we should ignore Mohammad. Which is it? Your own verse shows you're wrong.

Quote:
***

In past , the assailants killed the Muslims, pulled them out of their vatas, or cut them in cross/X shape.

In the past, other spiritualist pagans, such as Pharaoh, did the same.
From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharaohs)
"Achaemenid rule over Egypt came to an end through the conquests of Alexander the Great in 332 BC, after which it was ruled by the Hellenic Pharaohs of the Ptolemaic Dynasty. Their rule, and the independence of Egypt, came to an end when Egypt became a province of Rome in 30 BC. Augustus and subsequent Roman Emperors were styled as Pharaohs when in Egypt up until the reign of Maximinus Daia in 314 AD.

Mohammad was born appx 580.

Wrong about Pharaoh.

Quote:

And this verse about self defense and retaliation.

5:33 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger and seek to corrupt the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off on alternate sides or that they be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this world. In the Hereafter, they will have a great retribution.

In short, crossing is about self defense and retaliation to attacker pagans (Who cuts the Muslims in X shape).

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609989.0
Retaliation? That doesn't sound defensive.


rec·om·pense
/ˈrekəmˌpens/

verb
1.
make amends to (someone) for loss or harm suffered; compensate.
"offenders should recompense their victims"
synonyms: compensate, indemnify, repay, reimburse, pay money to, make reparation to, make restitution to, make amends to
"the Home Secretary contended that offenders should recompense their victims"
noun
1.
compensation or reward given for loss or harm suffered or effort made.
"substantial damages were paid in recompense"
synonyms: compensation, reparation, restitution, indemnification, indemnity;

So the "reward" fighting against God is to have opposite appendages cut off.

Please provide proof that "attacker pagans cut Muslims in an X".

Last edited by Little 10 Toes; 18th June 2019 at 08:22 PM. Reason: added bolding annotations
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2019, 05:11 PM   #1338
Rincewind
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,337
Rincewind has a birthday
Hi Emre,

Are we supposed to believe that when the Muslim Armies spread through Egypt along North Africa, into Sicily and Spain, crossing into France, and also through Anatolia into the Balkans that it was all DEFENSIVE?

Yeah - pull the other one...
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat...
Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2019, 05:51 PM   #1339
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Yeah - pull the other one...
Emre adamantly warns us not to judge Islam by what Muslims do, but what he says. If he says the Qur'an allows only defensive wars, then we can be sure that's true Islam. And on the other hand, "true" Christianity or Judaism is whatever addled notion he ekes out of scripture according to the exegeses spoon-fed to him by pro-Islam web sites, combined with every heinous practice from history he thinks he can pin on non-Muslims. Sectarian turmoil goes in only one direction for him.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:50 AM   #1340
Parsman
Muse
 
Parsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 716
Possibly good news on the religion front.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...-ire-on-the-us

Not necessarily good news if you are American, but then I am not sure your image is any better in the rest of the world, always excepting Brazil, Hungary and Israel.
__________________
I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus

When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.
Parsman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 06:17 PM   #1341
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 775
14- …then created the chewed lump of flesh (mudga) into bones,
then covered the bones with flesh (lahm)…
(23- The Believers, 14)

259- Look further at the bones, how We construct them
and then cover with flesh (lahm).
(2- The Cow, 259)


http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...es-with-flesh/

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...lump-of-flesh/
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 08:47 PM   #1342
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
14- …then created the chewed lump of flesh (mudga) into bones,

then covered the bones with flesh (lahm)…

(23- The Believers, 14)



259- Look further at the bones, how We construct them

and then cover with flesh (lahm).

(2- The Cow, 259)





http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...es-with-flesh/



http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...lump-of-flesh/

If you’re going to post have a point. Ejaculating random verses does nothing to advance any narrative.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 12:01 AM   #1343
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5,850
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
14- …then created the chewed lump of flesh (mudga) into bones,

then covered the bones with flesh (lahm)…

(23- The Believers, 14)



259- Look further at the bones, how We construct them

and then cover with flesh (lahm).

(2- The Cow, 259)





http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...es-with-flesh/



http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...lump-of-flesh/
And your point is that the Quran miraculously knows that flesh sits on bones? We are truly amazed! How could the author of the Quran have known this?
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 06:04 PM   #1344
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
And your point is that the Quran miraculously knows that flesh sits on bones? We are truly amazed! How could the author of the Quran have known this?


Clearly it necessitated revelations from a space wizard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 06:28 PM   #1345
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
14...
As usual, no point.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 10:08 PM   #1346
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,112
Hey Emre_1974tr, when are you going to address the previous questions?

Found something interesting in wikipedia.

Early Muslim conquestsWP

Quote:
The early Muslim conquests (Arabic: الفتوحات الإسلامية‎, al-Futūḥāt al-Islāmiyya), also referred to as the Arab conquests[4] and early Islamic conquests[5] began with the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the 7th century. He established a new unified polity in the Arabian Peninsula which under the subsequent Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates saw a century of rapid expansion.
Expansion? Conquests? Why would "defenders" have expansion and conquests?
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 11:33 PM   #1347
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,284
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Hey Emre_1974tr, when are you going to address the previous questions?
Never!!!
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2019, 05:47 AM   #1348
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Hey Emre_1974tr, when are you going to address the previous questions?

Found something interesting in wikipedia.

Early Muslim conquestsWP

Expansion? Conquests? Why would "defenders" have expansion and conquests?
I predict Emre_1974tr will respond with one of the following tactics, listed in order of likelihood:
  1. Ignore your comment in an act of cowardice and deception.
  2. Insist he's already addressed this successfully on his Turkish blog.
  3. Claim the historical record about Muhammad engaging in conquest is a fabrication or misinterpretation.
  4. Copy and paste a wad of unrelated verses from the Koran as if they were relevant to the discussion.
  5. Copy and paste a tortured "justification" without proper attribution. (AKA, Plagiarize.)
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 03:50 PM   #1349
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 775
"The Bible makes the claim that God Almighty rested (and was “refreshed”) after creating the heavens and the earth:

It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. [Exodus 31: 17]

The original Hebrew word used for “refreshed” is ‘naphash’, which means “to take breath, refresh oneself”.

According to the Qur’an, God does not display these human attributes of weakness and fatigue, for He is truly Omnipotent. Hence, He does not need rest or to refresh Himself. This false claim is corrected in the Qur’an:

And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days, and there touched Us no weariness. [Qur’an 50:38].

Notice how the verse in the Qur’an matches, nearly word for word, the verse in the Bible. This surely must be considered a divine rebuttal."

http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.co...saQ8w_t5xBPJ3M
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 03:55 PM   #1350
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Southern hemisphere
Posts: 7,206
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"The Bible makes the claim that God Almighty rested (and was “refreshed”) after creating the heavens and the earth:

It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. [Exodus 31: 17]

The original Hebrew word used for “refreshed” is ‘naphash’, which means “to take breath, refresh oneself”.

According to the Qur’an, God does not display these human attributes of weakness and fatigue, for He is truly Omnipotent. Hence, He does not need rest or to refresh Himself. This false claim is corrected in the Qur’an:

And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days, and there touched Us no weariness. [Qur’an 50:38].

Notice how the verse in the Qur’an matches, nearly word for word, the verse in the Bible. This surely must be considered a divine rebuttal."

http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.co...saQ8w_t5xBPJ3M
My fairy-tale story is not the same as your fairy-tale story. Therefore fairies exist.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:17 PM   #1351
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The original Hebrew word...
No. You don't read Hebrew. You don't read Arabic either. But here you really stepped in it.

The words having to do with breath or breathing are some of the oldest and most nuanced words in the Semitic languages. The noun form of this root is translated to mean many different things.

Quote:
According to the Qur’an, God does not display these human attributes of weakness and fatigue...
Weakness and fatigue are not necessary interpretations of this root. As usual, you're latching onto only one meaning of the relevant words and pretending that's all they can ever mean. This is because you don't really have the knowledge you pretend to have. Do you believe you are serving Islam by making such obvious and elementary mistakes?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:23 PM   #1352
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 775
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
My .
No, it shows the logic error in the fake Bible.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:25 PM   #1353
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, it shows the logic error in the fake Bible.
No, it shows your ongoing inability to understand the Bible.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:49 PM   #1354
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,287
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
"The Bible makes the claim that God Almighty rested (and was “refreshed”) after creating the heavens and the earth:

It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. [Exodus 31: 17]

The original Hebrew word used for “refreshed” is ‘naphash’, which means “to take breath, refresh oneself”.

According to the Qur’an, God does not display these human attributes of weakness and fatigue, for He is truly Omnipotent. Hence, He does not need rest or to refresh Himself. This false claim is corrected in the Qur’an:

And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days, and there touched Us no weariness. [Qur’an 50:38].

Notice how the verse in the Qur’an matches, nearly word for word, the verse in the Bible. This surely must be considered a divine rebuttal."

http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.co...saQ8w_t5xBPJ3M
Yes, the Quran actually says the heaven and earth were created in six days.

In this it is obviously copying the bible, and both the bible and Quran are entirely wrong. That they say the same thing is proof the Quran is largely plagiarism from the bible. They both make exactly the same false statement.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 02:29 AM   #1355
Emre_1974tr
Muse
 
Emre_1974tr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 775
The age of the universe is three times the age of our Earth.

Quran 50:38. We assuredly created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and nothing of fatigue touched us.

Quran 41.9 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."

The verses say the universes and our universe have been created in 6 days/stages, and our Earth is in 2 days/phases.

So the age or creation phase of the universe means three times the age of our Earth or the stage of creation.

Today, science also gives a similar knowledge: Our universe is 13.5 billion years old and our Earth is 4.5 billion years old....

In other words, science indicates that the age of our universe is 3 times the age of our Earth(4.5 X 3 = 13.5).

I answer to those who object to me saying, "But this rate is valid only in our day": Our universe / universes are 6 days old, the Earth has 2 days of eviction, the age of the universe is three times the world's age, When the Quran landed.

And science is introducing us with a new miracle to say the same thing.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 03:14 AM   #1356
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 20,298
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The age of the universe is three times the age of our Earth.

Quran 50:38. We assuredly created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and nothing of fatigue touched us.

Quran 41.9 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."

The verses say the universes and our universe have been created in 6 days/stages, and our Earth is in 2 days/phases.

So the age or creation phase of the universe means three times the age of our Earth or the stage of creation.

Today, science also gives a similar knowledge: Our universe is 13.5 billion years old and our Earth is 4.5 billion years old....

In other words, science indicates that the age of our universe is 3 times the age of our Earth(4.5 X 3 = 13.5).

I answer to those who object to me saying, "But this rate is valid only in our day": Our universe / universes are 6 days old, the Earth has 2 days of eviction, the age of the universe is three times the world's age, When the Quran landed.

And science is introducing us with a new miracle to say the same thing.
Blatantly false.

Universe = 13.772 bn
Earth = 4.543 bn

ratio = 0.329

Furthermore, the age of the earth will be exactly one third that of the universe for precisely one and only one instant.

Take your superstitious numerology and shove it.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 04:42 AM   #1357
Scorpion
Master Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,287
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The age of the universe is three times the age of our Earth.

Quran 50:38. We assuredly created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and nothing of fatigue touched us.

Quran 41.9 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."

The verses say the universes and our universe have been created in 6 days/stages, and our Earth is in 2 days/phases.

So the age or creation phase of the universe means three times the age of our Earth or the stage of creation.

Today, science also gives a similar knowledge: Our universe is 13.5 billion years old and our Earth is 4.5 billion years old....

In other words, science indicates that the age of our universe is 3 times the age of our Earth(4.5 X 3 = 13.5).

I answer to those who object to me saying, "But this rate is valid only in our day": Our universe / universes are 6 days old, the Earth has 2 days of eviction, the age of the universe is three times the world's age, When the Quran landed.

And science is introducing us with a new miracle to say the same thing.

It is clear that the quran is echoing the bible on the matter of the six days of creation, and the bible also says that a day in the sight of God is as a thousand years to us. This means that both the bible and the quran are saying that God created the heaven and earth in six thousand years. As this is obviously not the case, I put it to you that the real source of the creation myth as it appears in the quran is in fact the bible.
We know the universe has existed for around fourteen billion years, and we have hubble space telescope pictures of the edge of the universe to prove it.
We also know that the age of the earth is around four billion years, so we know that the universe existed for ten billion years before the earth was formed. We also know that the earth is made of atoms that were formed in the first stars, and ejected into space after they exploded. So planets could not even have been created for the first few billion years of the universe, because there were no heavy atoms in existence. So the bible is wrong and the quran exactly repeats this mythology.

Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, sura 10.3 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, sura 11.7 And He it is. Who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, sura 25.59 Who created the heaven and earth and all that is between them in six days.

Quran, sura 50.38 And surely We created the heaven and earth, and all that is between them, in six days.

Quran, sura 57.4 He it is Who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

Quran, sura 32.4 Allah it is who created the heaven and earth, and that which is between them, in six days. The he mounted the throne. You have not beside him a protecting friend or mediator. Will you not then remember?

Quran, sura 32.5 He directs the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascends unto him, in a day whereof the measure is a thousand years of that you reckon.

Here are the bible sources for these texts.

Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 05:17 AM   #1358
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, it shows the logic error in the fake Bible.
Your attempts at a ham-fisted comparative religion discussion provide multiple excellent examples of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 05:38 AM   #1359
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,558
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
And science is introducing us with a new miracle...
No. Science dispels miracles. It does not create them. You understand neither science nor religion.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 10:46 AM   #1360
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The age of the universe is three times the age of our Earth.

Quran 50:38. We assuredly created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and nothing of fatigue touched us.

Quran 41.9 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."

The verses say the universes and our universe have been created in 6 days/stages, and our Earth is in 2 days/phases.

So the age or creation phase of the universe means three times the age of our Earth or the stage of creation.

Today, science also gives a similar knowledge: Our universe is 13.5 billion years old and our Earth is 4.5 billion years old....

In other words, science indicates that the age of our universe is 3 times the age of our Earth(4.5 X 3 = 13.5).

I answer to those who object to me saying, "But this rate is valid only in our day": Our universe / universes are 6 days old, the Earth has 2 days of eviction, the age of the universe is three times the world's age, When the Quran landed.

And science is introducing us with a new miracle to say the same thing.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.