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Old 1st June 2019, 03:26 PM   #361
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
And I suppose if they were Muslims knocking on your door you would cover them with big sloppy kisses.
Nope, they'd get the same response Mormons do - "Please don't call here again, we're atheists who detest religion."

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have known some Jehovah's Witnesses quite well from a wife's family. Pretty harmless lot actually,...
Harmless to others, I agree.
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:48 PM   #362
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Anyone rubbing shoulders with the gods, believing to hear their commands, and also failing to understand they themselves are not gods, is primed for advocating unyielding totalitarianism. That can take the form of individual acts of terrorism, or state-sponsored terror. Iranian shenanigans in Iraq/Syria, or US Red states and their slavery-loving ways, share the same madness from such shoulder-rubbing.

So what about Islam in particular? Among the Abrahamics, it alone claims universal application by violent imposition. Judaism is violent, but at least geographically circumscribed in its claims. Christianity is historically the worst in terms of body counts, yet illustrates clearly how even formally "good" philosophies quickly get twisted into hammers of god whenever and wherever some fool, church of fools, or nation of fools, gets a whiff of the holy greatness they think would apply.

If fair representation of Islam in its many facets and sects is the goal, we have the 1990 Declaration of Islamic Rights, signed by virtually all Muslim majority nations, as an expression of commonly held core beliefs, and official position with respect to political governance in society. Without, then, making any claims about the nature of this or that aspect of Islamic thought, we have what is its truly lowest common denominator. As the saying goes, read it and weep.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 01:17 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Anyone rubbing shoulders with the gods, believing to hear their commands, and also failing to understand they themselves are not gods, is primed for advocating unyielding totalitarianism. That can take the form of individual acts of terrorism, or state-sponsored terror. Iranian shenanigans in Iraq/Syria, or US Red states and their slavery-loving ways, share the same madness from such shoulder-rubbing.

So what about Islam in particular? Among the Abrahamics, it alone claims universal application by violent imposition. Judaism is violent, but at least geographically circumscribed in its claims. Christianity is historically the worst in terms of body counts, yet illustrates clearly how even formally "good" philosophies quickly get twisted into hammers of god whenever and wherever some fool, church of fools, or nation of fools, gets a whiff of the holy greatness they think would apply.

If fair representation of Islam in its many facets and sects is the goal, we have the 1990 Declaration of Islamic Rights, signed by virtually all Muslim majority nations, as an expression of commonly held core beliefs, and official position with respect to political governance in society. Without, then, making any claims about the nature of this or that aspect of Islamic thought, we have what is its truly lowest common denominator. As the saying goes, read it and weep.

Read it and throw up more like it. Lots of double talk stuff in there, non more stark than the words about equal rights for women. Equal rights for women but the authority is Shariah. Yes right.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 02:34 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Theists please note - Atheism is simply a lack of belief in all those other religions (and to be consistent, yours too). That is the only thing that defines an atheist, and it's not our aim to be dickish about it. This poster who calls himself 'The Atheist' does not in any way represent us.

Many things are idiotic and harmful to some degree (eg. drinking coffee) but they are not harmful enough to worry about. I was taught religion as a child and I certainly do not consider it abuse. In fact, learning about religion is what turned me into an atheist! And neither did I turn away the Christians who came preaching at my door. I listened to their arguments, read their booklets, and made an informed decision about what (not) to believe.
Yes but children are not capable of making 'informed decisions' about what to believe are they? Teaching them that an invisible sky fairy made the world and in Islams case teaching them that this particular version of it is the last and final revelation is child abuse if you are teaching it as if it is true.

In the way for example you teach them 2+2 = 4 is a truth.

As said before, there is no such thing as a (insert religion here) child, only a child of (insert religion here) parents/guardians.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 02:54 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Theists please note - Atheism is simply a lack of belief in all those other religions (and to be consistent, yours too). That is the only thing that defines an atheist, and it's not our aim to be dickish about it. This poster who calls himself 'The Atheist' does not in any way represent us.

Many things are idiotic and harmful to some degree (eg. drinking coffee) but they are not harmful enough to worry about. I was taught religion as a child and I certainly do not consider it abuse. In fact, learning about religion is what turned me into an atheist! And neither did I turn away the Christians who came preaching at my door. I listened to their arguments, read their booklets, and made an informed decision about what (not) to believe.
Originally Posted by Stee View Post
Yes but children are not capable of making 'informed decisions' about what to believe are they? Teaching them that an invisible sky fairy made the world and in Islams case teaching them that this particular version of it is the last and final revelation is child abuse if you are teaching it as if it is true.

In the way for example you teach them 2+2 = 4 is a truth.

As said before, there is no such thing as a (insert religion here) child, only a child of (insert religion here) parents/guardians.


Must be somewhat exceptional our Roger Ramjets I think. Being indoctrinated into Learning about a religion as a child and being able reject it and become an atheist (as a child?) is quite an achievement.

Not to many others manage this in those countries with high levels of religiosity.

How to stop parents indoctrinating their kids? Now that is a hard one.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 06:15 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The issue I have with this glib generalisation is that it feeds the false perception that the West is engaged in a war with Islam.
But we are. Right here in this thread.

Quote:
This brings me to your other point about why this is a problem of Islam, rather than ISIS or takfiri.
This is why:
1. The presence in the Quran of numerous verses explicitly calling for violence against non-believers.
2. The body of Muslim scholarship supporting these ideas.
3. The lack of a centralised structure in Islam. There is no Islamic version of the Pope.
A problem of Islam? No, it's problem of cults (religious and others). In the US we have a similar situation, except it's fundamentalist Christians who are trying to force their biblical laws down our throats - with far more success than any Muslim scholars ever had in the West - and many of them believe in violent means of achieving their goals. Not that long ago our president, a 'born again' evangelical Christian, embarked on a crusade against Muslims. And the majority of the country cheered on his murderous rampage - which continues to this day.

In the US, radicalized Christians murder doctors and bomb clinics, burn down Mosques and shoot up synagogues. etc. - yet strangely no one calls out Christianity as being the cause, or chastises Christian leaders for not doing more to prevent it (and why would they - after all many of them agree with it).

Think I am being overly dramatic? Only by a little bit, or perhaps not all. Cut through all the rhetoric and just look at the body count. We Christians - with the full might of the West's war machine on our side - are easily winning this war against Islam. But just killing people is not enough. We must continue the war with words, as we bleat about the largely non-existent terrorist threat that we created (when not complaining about the 'War on Christmas', putting gays through 'conversion therapy', denying Global Warming or trying to stop those godless liberals from committing 'fetal genocide').

And then we have so-called atheist 'skeptics' wringing their hands over Islam while they ignore the real threat from Christian cults in their own neighborhood. Which is hardly surprising, since despite their supposed rejection of Christianity it's still a big part of their culture. Truth is they are a lot less 'atheist' than they think they are.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 06:27 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Must be somewhat exceptional our Roger Ramjets I think. Being indoctrinated into Learning about a religion as a child and being able reject it and become an atheist (as a child?) is quite an achievement.
Not at all. Note I never said that I was indoctrinated. Rejection was simply a matter of reading the Bible and asking - does this make sense? Of course it helped that I was allowed to read other books as well, but that is the difference between learning and indoctrination.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:20 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But we are. Right here in this thread.

A problem of Islam? No, it's problem of cults (religious and others). In the US we have a similar situation, except it's fundamentalist Christians who are trying to force their biblical laws down our throats - with far more success than any Muslim scholars ever had in the West - and many of them believe in violent means of achieving their goals. Not that long ago our president, a 'born again' evangelical Christian, embarked on a crusade against Muslims. And the majority of the country cheered on his murderous rampage - which continues to this day.

In the US, radicalized Christians murder doctors and bomb clinics, burn down Mosques and shoot up synagogues. etc. - yet strangely no one calls out Christianity as being the cause, or chastises Christian leaders for not doing more to prevent it (and why would they - after all many of them agree with it).



Think I am being overly dramatic? Only by a little bit, or perhaps not all. Cut through all the rhetoric and just look at the body count. We Christians - with the full might of the West's war machine on our side - are easily winning this war against Islam. But just killing people is not enough. We must continue the war with words, as we bleat about the largely non-existent terrorist threat that we created (when not complaining about the 'War on Christmas', putting gays through 'conversion therapy', denying Global Warming or trying to stop those godless liberals from committing 'fetal genocide').

And then we have so-called atheist 'skeptics' wringing their hands over Islam while they ignore the real threat from Christian cults in their own neighborhood. Which is hardly surprising, since despite their supposed rejection of Christianity it's still a big part of their culture. Truth is they are a lot less 'atheist' than they think they are.


You must be living on a different planet if you think Christians in the USA are posing just as big a threat to people all over the world as Islamic fundamentalists from IS and Al-Qaeda. The comparison is utterly bonkers.

What acts of Christian terrorism in the USA over the last 20 years have been comparable in any way at all to what happens on 9-11 when Islamic fundamentalists from Al-Qaeda flew 4 airliners full of ordinary passengers into buildings where thousands of office workers had just turned up for the days work?

In Syria over the last 7 years or so, IS (Daesh) has probably slaughtered around 100,000 people, inc. publicly beheading people, nailing murdered people to crosses erected in the town centres, and stoning women to death in a public display for all sorts of claimed crimes against the religion. Which Christian terrorist attacks in the USA have been comparable in way at all to what happened in the London Tube bombing in which 52 people were killed and over 700 injured (many with arms and legs blown off) or the Madrid train attack in which 200 were killed and over 2000 injured?

In Syria, until only a couple of months ago, ISIS (Daesh) had also taken military/political control of about 60% or more of the country and imposed fundamentalist religious rule everywhere. Can you tell us which parts of the USA are no longer governed by the USA elected government, but instead completely ruled by Christian fundamentalists patrolling the streets with machine guns and hatchets and stoning women to death for not wearing the right sort of clothes?

Your comparison is frankly a whopping great delusional insult to the hundreds of thousands of people who have now died at the hands of Islamic fundementalists since 2001.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 11:34 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But we are. Right here in this thread....

And then we have so-called atheist 'skeptics' wringing their hands over Islam while they ignore the real threat from Christian cults in their own neighborhood. Which is hardly surprising, since despite their supposed rejection of Christianity it's still a big part of their culture. Truth is they are a lot less 'atheist' than they think they are.
Somebody skipped my post, made a sweeping generalization, and has yet to demonstrate having done any real homework. Why not, say, start with the article in The Atlantic, What ISIS Really Wants, no alt-right rag by any account.

One eye-opener is that ISIS is classic and scriptural, no radical break at all; rather, quite orthodox. But I'll leave the reading to you.

So what does make for moderate Abrahamics of any sect/stripe? Creative apostasy and basic human regard for one's fellows.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 12:14 PM   #370
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I'm not sure if Islam really is worse than the other two Abrahamic religions, which is really to say, I don't think they're any better. It's just that in the West we started not taking the book very seriously.

And it's not because the book was more permissive in this aspect, but because of the horrors we did to each other when we did take it seriously. The 30 years war in Germany for example halved the total population of Germany within just 30 years. We're not talking army losses, but that's mostly civilian losses, including starvation, disease, etc. And by "starvation" I mean, after one army or the other looted your seed grain, after brutally torturing you to tell them where you hid it. And by "disease" I mean often after being basically waterboarded with hot feces to tell them where you hid that seed grain.

That was an extinction rate per year and capita that rivals the Holocaust. And it was Xians doing it to other Xians.

When the USA separated the church from the state, well, some of the founding fathers may have been more enlightened, but most people who supported it were just afraid that the Catholics and/or fellow evangelicals of a different sect would start oppressing them. In fact, all the way to the 20'th century, people were scared that immigrant Irish and German Catholics would impose religious law if enough of them get to be in one place anywhere. (Sorta the catholic sharia law scare, if you will)

Yeah, nowadays you'd think that Catholics and evangelicals in the USA are BFFs. Fellow moral Xians and all that. It's a very recent thing.

But at any rate, it ultimately boils down to the people, not on what's in a particular chapter of a particular book. A particular religion may say X, but it only matters if people take it serious about that. I mean, you don't even have to look at the Islam. The Norse religion for example was big on human sacrifice, but none of its modern followers would touch that with a ten foot poleaxe. Hell, even Himmler, who was obsessed with it and otherwise as murderous a bastard as they come, even he didn't think "yeah, what we need is to sacrifice people to Odin under a big tree."


THAT said, I think the whole thing does illustrate the whole problem with the proponents of giving religion magisterium over morals. They may say "religion", but they really mean specifically theirs. I believe that if you told one of the guys droning on about how you need "religion" to get any morals, and that you need the 10 commandments in front of some legislature or courthouse, that yeah, let's put a few lines from traditional Islamic jurisprudence next to that, you'd discover very quickly that they don't really mean the umbrella term "religion" when they use it.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:15 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Not at all. Note I never said that I was indoctrinated. Rejection was simply a matter of reading the Bible and asking - does this make sense? Of course it helped that I was allowed to read other books as well, but that is the difference between learning and indoctrination.

This is what happens when you make a silly statement, and when you are caught out, won't just pull your head in and slink away.

The Atheist posted:

"I firmly believe Dawkins' rating teaching children religion is a form of child abuse is correct."

You respond with the following silly statement:

"I was taught religion as a child and I certainly do not consider it abuse."

Thus dismissing the notion that teaching religion, (otherwise known as indoctrination), is abuse because you were smart enough to shrug it off. Given that the overwhelming majority of kids, raised by religious parents in religious communities, do not have your remarkable ability to suss it out for themselves, sort of speaks for itself doesn't it? In some of these communities you would be killed for possession of such an ability.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:28 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But we are. Right here in this thread.
Really? Is that what you think this is? Because I think we are discussing Islam. If you consider legitimate debate and criticism of Islam to constitute being 'at war' with it, then I think you need to reacquaint yourself with the principles of freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
From a purely personal perspective, I am not 'at war' with Islam, and I thought I had made that perfectly clear in my posts thus far. In case you're in doubt: I am not at war with Islam.


Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
A problem of Islam? No, it's problem of cults (religious and others).
No, it isn't. You are attempting to argue semantics, and not doing it very well.
From the Wiki article:
Quote:
Sociologist Max Weber (1864–1920) found that cults based on charismatic leadership often follow the routinization of charisma. The concept of a "cult" as a sociological classification was introduced in 1932 by American sociologist Howard P. Becker as an expansion of German theologian Ernst Troeltsch's church–sect typology. Troeltsch's aim was to distinguish between three main types of religious behavior: churchly, sectarian and mystical. Becker created four categories out of Troeltsch's first two by splitting church into "ecclesia" and "denomination", and sect into "sect" and "cult". Like Troeltsch's "mystical religion", Becker's cults were small religious groups lacking in organization and emphasizing the private nature of personal beliefs. Later sociological formulations built on these characteristics, placing an additional emphasis on cults as deviant religious groups "deriving their inspiration from outside of the predominant religious culture". This is often thought to lead to a high degree of tension between the group and the more mainstream culture surrounding it, a characteristic shared with religious sects. In this sociological terminology, sects are products of religious schism and therefore maintain a continuity with traditional beliefs and practices, while cults arise spontaneously around novel beliefs and practices.
I am afraid that scholarly opinion does not agree with your attempt to redefine sects or denominations as cults. Neither do the sources I linked to in my earlier post, showing how fundemantalist and jihadist-leaning denominations of Islam dominate Britain's mosques, representing as they do a significant percentage of Muslims in the UK.
This is nothing more than apologetics, and it does nothiing to answer the content of my earlier post.
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
In the US we have a similar situation
No, you don't, as has been eloquently pointed out by IanS.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
, except it's fundamentalist Christians who are trying to force their Not that long ago our president, a 'born again' evangelical Christian, embarked on a crusade against Muslims.
Please quote Bush saying this.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
And the majority of the country cheered on his murderous rampage - which continues to this day.
Can you also link to some details of the places where GW Bush is currently rampaging murderously?

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Think I am being overly dramatic? Only by a little bit, or perhaps not all. Cut through all the rhetoric and just look at the body count. We Christians - with the full might of the West's war machine on our side - are easily winning this war against Islam.
Citation needed for the highlighted part. Please demonstrate the existence of a war against Islam being conducted by the West.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But just killing people is not enough. We must continue the war with words, as we bleat about the largely non-existent terrorist threat that we created.
Citations needed. Please explain the current wave of jihadist attacks in the light of your claim that they are non-existent. I'm sure the Sri Lankan government, among many others, will be enormously relieved.
Please also indicate how you think the West created this terrorism. That's quite a charge to make without providing any supporting evidence.


Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
And then we have so-called atheist 'skeptics' wringing their hands over Islam while they ignore the real threat from Christian cults in their own neighborhood. Which is hardly surprising, since despite their supposed rejection of Christianity it's still a big part of their culture. Truth is they are a lot less 'atheist' than they think they are.
In case you hadn't noticed, this is a thread about Islam. If you want to discuss the "threat from Christian cults" in our neighbourhoods (and, given that I'm living in Kuwait, how serious do you think that threat is in my particular neighbourhood?), then go right ahead. This would give you an opportunity to see what I, and others, think, instead of constructing strawmen about what you think we actually might think.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:57 AM   #373
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Yes, but conversely I'm living in Germany, where I feel less threatened by Islam than by the neighbour's large housecat. If I run into a group of muslims, chances are the worst they've ever done was a really hot kebab

In Germany since WW2 there have been more terror attacks by the communists than by Islamists. Even funnier, there have been more terror attacks by right wing extremists -- who, supposedly, want to protect us from those foreigners -- than by Islamists. Hell, even the IRA is a strong contender there, and that was in the name of Catholicism.

Even broadening it from just "Islamist", in the attacks that were done by Muslims or in the name of some Muslim groups, most were by Muslims protesting other Muslims over something rather non-religious, rather than trying to bring us sharia law or whatever nonsense. E.g., Kurds against Turks, and such.

Also, strangely enough, out of the millions of Turks we seem to have gotten over time, none of them seem to want sharia law or to put women in Burqas or whatever. Presumably because they're from Turkey where that doesn't happen. So there goes the whole bullcrap talking about "Islam" as if it's some homogenous group from the Atlantic to the Pacific. No, as it turns out, not all of them are Taliban.

In fact, if there is some group who's been trying to give me religion and argue that that's where you get the recipe for a moral life, it's not the Muslims, strangely enough. I keep running into groups of older ladies who've set up some kind of market stall, for lack of the better word, to promote Xianity. There's one at the railway station, one at the supermarket where I shop most of the time, one by a bank, and a couple more. And they're invariably Russian.

Not that there aren't groups of idiots like Pegida and such, who try to build up some fantastic story of Muslims coming over to displace the local Xians and whatnot. Funnily enough, where those kinds of guys did get some political support is not where the Syrian refugees and such went in the first place. So the most butthurt are the kind of idiots that are actually least exposed to the "problem" they preach about.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:13 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
You must be living on a different planet if you think Christians in the USA are posing just as big a threat to people all over the world as Islamic fundamentalists from IS and Al-Qaeda. The comparison is utterly bonkers.
Not in terms of absolute numbers but the US fundamentalist support of anti LGBTQ rhetoric in Africa is astounding, say in Uganda. Then there is all the vitriol and hatred they promote in the US and the continuing push back on LGBTQ rights in the US

Much less all the silly moralizing they force on young women in the US.

They are awful and do many evil things, just because they do less than some others does not excuse there evil and meanness of spirit
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:21 PM   #375
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Timely news about just how entirely overthrown a mind can become when righteousness is taken as a personal trait, transcending whatever the teachings.

Quote:
I love you Pastor John and Pastor Aventer. I believe in you,” Carpenter said. “I’m praying for you. I’m rooting for you!”

Then, her monologue took an abrupt, violent turn.

“I cut people. I got a knife right in that pocketbook,” Carpenter said, gesturing toward her seat. “Greenville News, come on. We done went through this. I’m still here, and guess who else is still going to be here?” She pointed to John Gray, who nodded in agreement.

The crowd roared once again.
Christians in the US are slandering, self-righteous bastards who wouldn't know what to do with a Good Samaritan, if not lock him/her up as a left-wing, atheist anti-Christian who probably deserves death.

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Old 4th June 2019, 02:39 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Yes, but conversely I'm living in Germany, where I feel less threatened by Islam than by the neighbour's large housecat. If I run into a group of muslims, chances are the worst they've ever done was a really hot kebab
Well perhaps you have been lucky thus far in Germany - not so a short distance away in England. Then again perhaps the housecats in Germany are particularly dangerous and adept at bomb making.

Quote:
In Germany since WW2 there have been more terror attacks by the communists than by Islamists. Even funnier, there have been more terror attacks by right wing extremists -- who, supposedly, want to protect us from those foreigners -- than by Islamists. Hell, even the IRA is a strong contender there, and that was in the name of Catholicism.
Yes well the right wing extremist threat is the flip side of this, as so clearly illustrated in Christchurch. The Muslims are an ideal target for their hatred and groups like this desperately need those targets.

What I am suggesting is a softly softly approach to reducing Muslim numbers, by concentrating on religious education/indoctrination in general. Increase religious education as a history subject, and try to eliminate religious indoctrination.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:18 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Please quote Bush saying this.
Quote:
We need to go back to work tomorrow and we will. But we need to be alert to the fact that these evil-doers still exist. We haven't seen this kind of barbarism in a long period of time. No one could have conceivably imagined suicide bombers burrowing into our society and then emerging all in the same day to fly their aircraft — fly U.S. aircraft into buildings full of innocent people — and show no remorse. This is a new kind of — a new kind of evil. And we understand. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while. And the American people must be patient. I'm going to be patient. But I can assure the American people I am determined, I'm not going to be distracted, I will keep my focus to make sure that not only are these brought to justice, but anybody who's been associated will be brought to justice. Those who harbor terrorists will be brought to justice. It is time for us to win the first war of the 21st century decisively, so that our children and our grandchildren can live peacefully into the 21st century.
Source

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I want to tell you something, we've got no better friends than Canada. (Applause.) They stand with us in this incredibly important crusade to defend freedom, this campaign to do what is right for our children and our grandchildren.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:52 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
So he didn't say it was a crusade against Muslims. Thank you for confirming my point.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:11 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So he didn't say it was a crusade against Muslims. Thank you for confirming my point.
Who was the crusade against, then?
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:33 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm not sure if Islam really is worse than the other two Abrahamic religions, which is really to say, I don't think they're any better. It's just that in the West we started not taking the book very seriously.

It's immeasurably more dangerous at this present time in our history.

You might feel perfectly safe in Germany. But you should not have done if your were in that Christmas street market in Berlin (December 2016). You should not have felt safe if you were in any of the 3 tube trains or the bus bombed in London on the morning of 7th July 2005. Or if you were taking the train to work in Madrid on the morning of 11th March 2004. Or if you were at the rock concert in Paris in November 2015.

Those attacks, and hundreds of other attacks and intercepted plots are real incidents in which real people were horribly slaughtered in public. They were not just stories in someone else's news.

We are not just talking about a few isolated incidents with a few unfortunate occasional victims. We are talking about tens of thousands of ordinary unsuspecting members of the public all over the world who have been blown to pieces since the attacks of 9-11. And you should be very concerned indeed about that … we should all be very concerened about it.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:51 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Not in terms of absolute numbers but the US fundamentalist support of anti LGBTQ rhetoric in Africa is astounding, say in Uganda. Then there is all the vitriol and hatred they promote in the US and the continuing push back on LGBTQ rights in the US

Much less all the silly moralizing they force on young women in the US.

They are awful and do many evil things, just because they do less than some others does not excuse there evil and meanness of spirit

Of course fundamentalist Christians in the USA (and to a lesser extent all over Europe) are a danger and a big drain on society. All of us here (and myself as much as anyone) have said in many threads that their attempts to teach children creationism instead of science & evolution, their attacks on abortion clinics, and their belief that prayers should be used instead of medical care to heal the sick etc., those things and many other aspects are all a serious problem in highly Christian societies such as the USA.

But that is million miles from being comparable at all with the hundreds of thousands of people who have been deliberately slaughtered in the persuit of religious fundamentalist Islam since 2001 (ie, 9-11).

You have to keep some sense of proportion and reality in what you say when you compare these things. And there is absolutely no comparison at all between the danger that Christianity is currently posing to the general public vs. the war that is being waged by fundamentalist Islam.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:51 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Who was the crusade against, then?
Well, Bush said it was against terrorism. Now, I have very little respect for Dubya, but if you want to prove it was actually against Muslims in general, then you need to provide some evidence.
If it was really against Muslims, then why haven't we seen something like we saw in WWII, when US citizens of Japanese origin were interned?
Why does the US still enjoy good relations with so many Muslim countries if it is engaged in a crusade against them?
Again, you seem to be making the same mistake as others here, in buying into a narrative that is simply untrue, and by doing so actually fuelling jihadism by validating this idea.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:58 AM   #383
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Perhaps it's also worth making this very basic point – No Christians were involved in plotting or executing the 9-11 attacks. No Christians were involved in the formation of Al-Qaeda or ISIS or in carrying out any of their religious wars or in any of their killing of hundreds of thousands of people. No Christians were involved in the 2004 Madrid train bombing, or in the 2005 London Tube bombing, or in the murder of the Charlie Hebdo staff or the Rock concert attack in Paris etc. etc …

… we are talking about those Islamist attacks and all those hundreds of thousands of deaths … none of that has involved any Christians at all.

What Christian fundamentalists may do in the USA or elsewhere, and what dangers radical Christians might pose, are not what we are talking about … that's a different subject – they are not taking part in what fundamentalist Islam has been waging as a religious war for the last 20 years.

However, there is of course a great similarity between Islam and Christianity in so far as they are both worldwide religious beliefs with billions of adherents. And they both believe almost exactly the same things from the exact same God and the exact same belief that actual words of the God are given in sacred religious books that must be obeyed.

That's something I commented upon either at the start of this thread or else in several other recent threads. Namely – in the days directly after 9-11, when the press interviewed people in the USA or in the UK or all around the world, many of those people were appealing to God to ease the situation with prayers and saying things like “we must all pray for the victims of this awful attack”. They did not seem to realise that as Christians, they were appealing to the exact same God that had motivated the beliefs of the Islamic attackers. They did seem to realise, or perhaps didn't care, that their own Christian beliefs are actually 99% the same as the Islamic beliefs of the attackers. It never seemed to occur to any of them that if the beliefs of Islam could drive it's faithful to do things like this, then their own very similar Christian religious beliefs were almost certainly dangerous in exactly the same way, and for almost identical reasons.

9-11 was a wake-up call for everyone in the Western world. But it should have been a wake-up call telling all Christians that if Islam could motivate attacks like this, then it was far from impossible that Christianity could also become equally militant in pursuing a religious war for it's beleifs.

However, at the present time the fact is that there is no such threat from Christianity. But there is instead, not merely a massive threat, but the actual reality of Islam currently perusing an enormous worldwide religious war.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:59 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
It's immeasurably more dangerous at this present time in our history.
No. Certain people are. Some of which happen to be Muslim. But not only they don't represent Islam as a whole, most of those dangerous people aren't even Muslim.

And is it really? I'll come back to this.

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
You might feel perfectly safe in Germany. But you should not have done if your were in that Christmas street market in Berlin (December 2016). You should not have felt safe if you were in any of the 3 tube trains or the bus bombed in London on the morning of 7th July 2005. Or if you were taking the train to work in Madrid on the morning of 11th March 2004. Or if you were at the rock concert in Paris in November 2015.
And there comes the telltale sign of BS: you had to mash up events from several countries to even seem like it's a threat. Because in any one of those countries, you'd be far more likely to be killed by a local run-of-the-mill Xian.

That is the flip side of the information age. Events get thrown at you from all over the world, and it creates an impression as if they're all happening in your back yard. This is the same phenomenon that causes the fear of crime to be on the rise, while crime itself is actually going down.

But then there's also a level of bigotry and dishonesty involved in filtering out only <insert minority> as examples. Religious ones included, but not only.

Because if we were just doing an HONEST mashup of every terror attack ever in the western world, then we'd also tally up stuff like

- the Christchurch mosque shootings, which had more than FOUR TIMES the fatalities of the 2016 Berlin truck attack

- the 2017 Finsbury Park attack in London

- the 2017 Quebec City mosque shooting

- the 2011 Norway attacks, with an even more staggering death and injury count than even the Christchurch one

Etc.

And that's just in the west. If you go to other places, you can find outright attempted pogroms.

So even as scare tallies go, we're not even doing an honest one, are we? It's conveniently filtered so only the Muslims are the bad guys

Edit: ffs, even the language is skewed to tell a certain narrative. When it's a Muslim it gets reported as a terror attack, while if some guy drives a car into people leaving a mosque, it gets reported as an "islamophobic incident."
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Old 5th June 2019, 07:21 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Who was the crusade against, then?
It's your citation. It's up to you to provide the appropriate context to interpret it.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:30 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
No. Certain people are. Some of which happen to be Muslim. But not only they don't represent Islam as a whole, most of those dangerous people aren't even Muslim.

And is it really? I'll come back to this.

"No"! ... those "certain people" have all told the world thousands of times over, that the justification for the atrocities comes to them from a devout religious belief that their God commands them to do such things from his words in their holy book.

It's not debatable. Because the terrorists themselves have made insistently clear that their Islamic religious faith is their main motivating factor.



Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
And there comes the telltale sign of BS: you had to mash up events from several countries to even seem like it's a threat. Because in any one of those countries, you'd be far more likely to be killed by a local run-of-the-mill Xian.

That is the flip side of the information age. Events get thrown at you from all over the world, and it creates an impression as if they're all happening in your back yard. This is the same phenomenon that causes the fear of crime to be on the rise, while crime itself is actually going down.

But then there's also a level of bigotry and dishonesty involved in filtering out only <insert minority> as examples. Religious ones included, but not only.

Because if we were just doing an HONEST mashup of every terror attack ever in the western world, then we'd also tally up stuff like

- the Christchurch mosque shootings, which had more than FOUR TIMES the fatalities of the 2016 Berlin truck attack

- the 2017 Finsbury Park attack in London

- the 2017 Quebec City mosque shooting

- the 2011 Norway attacks, with an even more staggering death and injury count than even the Christchurch one

Etc.

And that's just in the west. If you go to other places, you can find outright attempted pogroms.

So even as scare tallies go, we're not even doing an honest one, are we? It's conveniently filtered so only the Muslims are the bad guys

Edit: ffs, even the language is skewed to tell a certain narrative. When it's a Muslim it gets reported as a terror attack, while if some guy drives a car into people leaving a mosque, it gets reported as an "islamophobic incident."

Well the BS is all yours I'm afraid.

There is absolutely no comparison at all between the dangers and the deaths that Islamic fundamentalism has caused since 2001 vs. what any such Christian groups have done.

Afaik, there are no fundamentalist Christians or groups under surveillance by UK or EU anti-terrorist services (or if there are, then they are so few and so inconsequential as to never be mentioned by any of those security services). But as stated before, in total contrast, almost the entire workforce of the UK anti-terrorist security services (and afaik also the corresponding EU security services) has had be focused on tracking many thousands of such Islamic individuals all over Europe ... and that is a direct measure of the difference in threat posed by Islamic fundamentalism vs. any Christian or other terrorist-type group at present.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:33 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Of course fundamentalist Christians in the USA (and to a lesser extent all over Europe) are a danger and a big drain on society. All of us here (and myself as much as anyone) have said in many threads that their attempts to teach children creationism instead of science & evolution, their attacks on abortion clinics, and their belief that prayers should be used instead of medical care to heal the sick etc., those things and many other aspects are all a serious problem in highly Christian societies such as the USA.

But that is million miles from being comparable at all with the hundreds of thousands of people who have been deliberately slaughtered in the persuit of religious fundamentalist Islam since 2001 (ie, 9-11).

You have to keep some sense of proportion and reality in what you say when you compare these things. And there is absolutely no comparison at all between the danger that Christianity is currently posing to the general public vs. the war that is being waged by fundamentalist Islam.

So again "Their evil is a worse evil", how many women have to be battered and then have their abuser supported by their minister and church? How many will it take? One, three hundred a million?
Evil is evil, submit to your battering husband, is evil. How many domestic partners are battered every day and the evil is excused by the Christian church?

How many rapes?

Why do you insist that one type of evil is too small to matter, domestic partners are battered and raped every day and then the Christian churches and social groups condone the behavior.

How many around the world Ian? Before you stop saying that 'oh that one is so much worse' ?
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:17 PM   #388
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It gets even worse, I'm afraid, if we look outside the safety bubble that is the western world. Children in Africa for example are routinely killed or crippled (e.g., by putting acid in their eyes) as Xian exorcism.

Not that the western world is immune to it. There have been people killed by trying to exorcise them all over the world, including USA, England, Germany, you name it. While that isn't popularized, because the police take it seriously, traditional exorcism for as far as we have a written history of it routinely involves torturing the possessed in the name of hurting the demon inside so it would leave the body. But in some of the more brain-dead parts of the world, that is still the case.

And that, I might add, is determined by berks like, say, the late father Malachi Martin, who I mention only for the following quote: "Exorcism can be extremely violent. I have seen objects hurled around rooms by the powers of evil. I have smelt the breath of Satan and heard the demons’ voices - cold, scratchy, dead voices carrying messages of hatred." The guy is either schizophrenic or a liar. And if there were objects thrown around, and the possessed guy is tied to a bed, then you can guess who is doing the violence.

But even when it doesn't turn violent, it is used to encourage and enforce a certain religious stigma. One of the reasons actually cited for a rise in demand for exorcism in Mexico in the 21st century, is the increase in abortions. Yeah, if you're a woman and have (or try to have) an abortion, you may find that your family will tie you down and put you through some humiliating exorcisms. And the RCC is perfectly happy to take a part in this and encourage it. They'll happily tell your family that yeah, you were totally possessed by the devil.

Other reasons to find yourself tied down and put through an exorcism include joining some cult that the others don't like, like the cult of Saint Death (no, literally.) Or even the fact that there has been some crime in the neighbourhood and they're looking for some demonically possessed non-believer to blame it on. Quite literally, you can find yourself tied down and exorcised because there have been two or three murders in town recently, and you had nothing to do with them, but happened to be the guy who doesn't go to church. So, you know, surely you're the one who brought Satan there. Again, the RCC is still perfectly happy to take part and encourage this superstion. In the 21st century.

It's a softer campaign of terror (via humiliation) by any other name. They can't outright burn you at the stake like in the good old times for being a heathen or having an abortion, but by Jove, they can make it as uncomfortable as you wish. Until you get the idea that it's not safe to rock the Xian boat.

Etc.

Then there are the attacks on gays, abortion doctors, etc. And not all are just beating up one guy. Occasionally you have stuff like the 2016 attack on an Orlando nightclub. Which incidentally also surpassed the Berlin terror attack fatalities by a factor of four. Guess what is the #1 motivation cited for this kind of stuff? Yep, good ol' religion family values.

Of course here too the language doesn't help. If you shoot up a clinic or a gay club, it's some isolated hate crime, nobody should get worked up (except as an excuse to say they need more guns.) But if you happen to even look like a muslim, there comes the "terrorist attack" label. So it makes it look like only one side has the terror attacks. But remind me, how is the former not an act of terror, and intended as such?

Etc.

Is it worse than Islam on the whole? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But I do say that if you don't live in the Middle East, in any given year you're far more likely to be killed by one of these berks than by anyone motivated by the Islam.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:19 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
So again "Their evil is a worse evil", how many women have to be battered and then have their abuser supported by their minister and church? How many will it take? One, three hundred a million?
Evil is evil, submit to your battering husband, is evil. How many domestic partners are battered every day and the evil is excused by the Christian church?

How many rapes?

Why do you insist that one type of evil is too small to matter, domestic partners are battered and raped every day and then the Christian churches and social groups condone the behavior.

How many around the world Ian? Before you stop saying that 'oh that one is so much worse' ?

Absolutely classical BS of the "Look over there" kind.

We have threads about domestic violence - I started one myself. This thread is specifically about the problems generated by the Islamic religion ..... got it?
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:25 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
It gets even worse, I'm afraid, if we look outside the safety bubble that is the western world. Children in Africa for example are routinely killed or crippled (e.g., by putting acid in their eyes) as Xian exorcism.

Not that the western world is immune to it. There have been people killed by trying to exorcise them all over the world, .......

On and on.

........ far more likely to be killed by one of these berks than by anyone motivated by the Islam.

Start a thread about exorcism or any other topic you like then. All this crap is irrelevant to the subject at hand.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:50 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Start a thread about exorcism or any other topic you like then. All this crap is irrelevant to the subject at hand.
The argument here is that we cope with Islam the same way we cope with Christianity. That religion has much the same problems as Islam, and we can perhaps discover some way forward in the second case, by comparing it to the first case. Why do you reject this process of discovery?
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:47 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The argument here is that we cope with Islam the same way we cope with Christianity. That religion has much the same problems as Islam, and we can perhaps discover some way forward in the second case, by comparing it to the first case. Why do you reject this process of discovery?

That's not the argument I see as being presented.

I see the argument being presented by many here as - "Look we have all these deaths and such, for all these other reasons than Islam, so why aren't you looking at those instead?"

Some of these other reasons involve religion as a motivator and some not. Some of the atrocities just happen to be done by people of a certain religion, but the religion cannot be reasonably held responsible.

If some examples were given, of atrocities being propagated by some other religious driver and strategies used to lessen the problem, there may be some relevance to the discussion at hand. It may be useful to consider such strategies in our struggle with Islam.

I have made some suggestions, which do in fact impact on other religions than Islam simultaneously.
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:11 PM   #393
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The point literally was the one theprestige translated for you. Not that it needed much effort to translate, since I had already spelled it out in post #370: I don't think the Islam is any worse, nor any better.

So, yes, why do you need anything special to deal with it?

The point being that sure, it's easier to paint any one religion as the absolute worst, if nobody can even mention anything about the other ones. Then all the bad points go neatly in the column you want them in. It can be about Islam, Judaism, Atheism, whatever. Any one of those can be painted as the worst if the bad points can only be tallied for them, but not any other.


But ok, let's get back to the bigger issue then: Are you SURE you actually want to open the can of worms that one can single out a religion for special treatment?

I mean, for a change that doesn't even go against the spirit or interpretation of the 1st Amendment in the USA for example, but it goes against its explicit wording too. Not to mention article 18 the universal declaration of human rights.

And not even based on any comparison, at that, but just because some people feel threatened by it?

It seems to me like both of those are there for a reason.

Even more importantly it's the same freedom that lets you be an atheist. And especially if we were to decide what belief system is bad by how many people feel threatened by it, then I do believe that Atheism would top the list. You'd get both the evangelicals AND the Muslims agreeing with each other for a change, if it came to condemning those dangerous nutters who refuse to take their morals from any God.
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:39 PM   #394
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This is not getting any better Hans.

From being afraid of housecats we now progress to listing atheism, (with you spell with a capital "A" I notice..... interesting.) as a top of the list threat perceived by some. Would folk who collect stamps be threatened by the existence of those that do not?

Then you say:

"But ok, let's get back to the bigger issue then: Are you SURE you actually want to open the can of worms that one can single out a religion for special treatment?"

When that is precisely what I am very specific about not suggesting. You should read what I write, instead of making stuff up you can attack me for.
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Old 5th June 2019, 08:52 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's your citation. It's up to you to provide the appropriate context to interpret it.
Okay, I will.

In the first quote, GWB used the phrase "crusade" in a speech given in response to the 9/11 attacks, which were perpetrated by Muslim extremist terrorists.

In the second quote, GWB used the phrase "crusade" while he was drumming up support for his invasion of Iraq - a war that he claimed was against Muslim extremist terrorists and a rogue Muslim government that he claimed was developing weapons of mass destruction.

Furthermore, historically the Crusades were fought by Christians against Muslims, so whatever context you put it in, he's talking about Muslims.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:44 PM   #396
Lukraak_Sisser
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Absolutely classical BS of the "Look over there" kind.

We have threads about domestic violence - I started one myself. This thread is specifically about the problems generated by the Islamic religion ..... got it?
Yes, and in my country, the biggest threat is that the 'threat of Islam' is being used by a very conservative/christian values political parties to attempt to actively remove secular and liberal freedoms, whereas the chances of being actually hurt by a Muslim are virtually nil.

Now you and IanS keep claiming that that is irrelevant because the ones actually influencing policy are not using bombs, but to me the greater threat are the ones that are actually successful in altering society, and that is not the few Muslim terrorists.

And those negative consequences stem from a certain segment of the media who are over emphasizing anything negative associated with Muslims.
If a European does a murder suicide on his family its reported as a 'family tragedy', if a Muslim does the same we get three days of 'The muslims want to honorkill all their children and soon yours!"
If a European group of men on a festival gets drunk and harrasses/molests women it is either not reported at all, or gets 1 paragraph somewhere in a local paper. If a group of Muslims does this we get weeks of 'Muslim men target white women!!"
Etc etc.

And that hyperbole is what is abused in most of Europe by parties that would like to introduce laws that will or have curtailed freedoms gained post WW2.
No Muslim and no bombs involved.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:41 PM   #397
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay, I will.

In the first quote, GWB used the phrase "crusade" in a speech given in response to the 9/11 attacks, which were perpetrated by Muslim extremist terrorists.
So he did not use the word 'Muslim' at all: you inserted that. He declared a war against terrorism, in response to a terrorist attack. There is no justification in what he said to broaden this to mean a crusade against Muslims.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In the second quote, GWB used the phrase "crusade" while he was drumming up support for his invasion of Iraq - a war that he claimed was against Muslim extremist terrorists and a rogue Muslim government that he claimed was developing weapons of mass destruction.
Again, you have inserted the word 'Muslim' into the quote. Bush did not say that: you did.
Furthermore, the government of Iraq at the time was secular, not Muslim.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Furthermore, historically the Crusades were fought by Christians against Muslims, so whatever context you put it in, he's talking about Muslims.
The historical context of the word shows that Bush was a jackass for using it. However, it has long since come to mean a campaign for change, and it is probably this context that Bush intended.

Incidentally, the same argument could be applied to the term 'jihad'. The Quran is pretty clear that it is meant to be a military struggle, but many moderate Muslims today argue that it is more of an internal, spiritual struggle. Strange, then that the same kind of leeway is not allowed for the Christian version.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:48 PM   #398
arthwollipot
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Yes yes, you are technically correct, which we all know is the best kind of correct, but you cannot separate his statements from the context of the time. Anti-Muslim sentiment was at a high point after 9/11, and even if he used the word carelessly and without thought (which I can totally believe, by the way), it was very clear at the time what he was talking about.

Everybody hated Muslims for 9/11. GWB talked about going on a "crusade". You'd have to be an idiot not to put two and two together.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:27 AM   #399
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is not getting any better Hans.
And it's not going to get any better as long as you apparently don't want to actually evaluate whether Islam is better or worse than any other stuff we cheerfully allow, but apparently you just want the islamophobe thing of only tallying the 'sins' for Islam.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
From being afraid of housecats we now progress to listing atheism, (with you spell with a capital "A" I notice..... interesting.) as a top of the list threat perceived by some. Would folk who collect stamps be threatened by the existence of those that do not?
Comprehension problems much, or deliberately taking things out of context? Because I spelled out there what I mean: when you open the can of worms that you can need to "cope" specifically with one belief, and not based on any comparison, but by only allowing the 'sins' to be tallied for that specific one, then atheism will be at the top of the list of beliefs to deal with for the majority of Americans for example.

Unlike hypothetical dumbassery about stamp collectors feeling threatened by those who don't, the MAIN thrust against atheism is that those darned atheists can't be moral people because they don't have a god telling them what to do. They can murder and rape left and right with no fear of consequences. It's not some hypothetical, it's not even just implied, it's explicitly stated all over the place. It's even frikken billboards.

In fact what's being proposed is that atheists are actually even more dangerous than the taliban. For Muslims even the far right tends to at least give lip servince to the idea that 'we're not saying it's ALL of them, yada, yada' whereas the statement made about atheism and morals is a blanket one.

And it makes sense too, if you understand the social roles and needs that religion has. It being some (irrational) reassurance that the neighbour won't kidnap and kill your kid because he's a proper Xian and goes to church every Sunday is an important one.

And there are attempts to actually do something about it. E.g., one US state actually tried to eliminate secular marriage and mandate that you can only be married by a priest.

The ONLY thing that keeps that from actually happening is that it's unconstitutional to favour a belief system over another, or to restrict what people of a certain belief or lack thereof can do. The moment you open that door for any religion, be it Islam or whatever, then you opened the door to do something about Atheism too.

You want to mandate some deconversion course about the history of religion? Well, they'll be more than happy to teach theirs in which the world was a bloody mess until Moses gave the laws, Christianity is what caused the western civilization, atheism caused the likes of Hitler and Stalin, and the rise of atheism is to blame for everything perceived to be worse than in the good ol' days.

Anyway, that's the problem with silly arguments from analogy: they only hold any water if the relevant thing is actually shared. If the speeches about atheism given by theist ministers and priests were with the same attitude as that of stamp collectors about those who don't, then you'd have a point.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:37 AM   #400
IanS
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
So again "Their evil is a worse evil", how many women have to be battered and then have their abuser supported by their minister and church? How many will it take? One, three hundred a million?
Evil is evil, submit to your battering husband, is evil. How many domestic partners are battered every day and the evil is excused by the Christian church?

How many rapes?

Why do you insist that one type of evil is too small to matter, domestic partners are battered and raped every day and then the Christian churches and social groups condone the behavior.

How many around the world Ian? Before you stop saying that 'oh that one is so much worse' ?

You are talking about a totally different subject. Do you really not understand that?

You are now comparing a worldwide Islamic war that has killed hundreds of thousands of people, with domestic abuse/violence in US homes where you say that local Christian churches try to minimise and make excuses for such events. Those are two utterly different and unconnected things ...

... how many women do you think are subject to that same sort of domestic abuse in Islamic countries? The problem is almost certainly even worse there ... but that's a very different issue from why Muslims around the world form groups like ISIS or Al-Qaeda, why they the wage religious wars to control entire countries by all-out murderous force, and why tens of thousands of Muslims born and living in the UK and the EU, take it upon themselves to join that religious Jihad by murdering as many unsuspecting ordinary members the public as possible in the most appalling & barbaric ways (whilst shouting praise to the glory of God!).

You might just as well have tried the idiotic comparison that someone else tried here earlier by saying that more people in the US were killed by smoking or by car accidents!

By the way, we do try to reduce deaths from smoking, drinking, car accidents, and of course we do have laws against any such form of domestic abuse and we (western societies) do try extremely hard to prevent incidents of domestic abuse ... we have national laws against all those things, and we (society & the lawmakers) do try extremely hard to prevent anything like that. The church and it's officials may make excuses for it, just as the Catholic Church in Rome has tried for decades to cover-up and make excuses for child abuse within the church ... we all know that, and everyone condems it in the strongest possible terms... and society through the democratic law has tried to bring the church as a whole and the individuals to justice ... it's far from ignored, it's treated very seriously indeed ... but that's a completely different matter from Islamic fundamentalist religious wars that are currently being perused against virtually anyone who the Jihadists think is less than totally committed to belief in the Koran & Islam.

Final point on that – when you talk like that about other problems in the USA, you are really reacting as if what happened to people in other countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Nigeria etc. didn't really matter to you … or for that matter as if it did not really matter what happened to the victims of the numerous suicide bombings all over Europe … you are talking as if the only place that mattered, and the only lives that mattered, are in the USA.

Look – the bottom line is that we (as society) ought to be able to do far more to stop Islamic fundamentalist violence. We ought to be be able to educate people out of the beliefs that that persuading them into physical Jihad and a belief that Islam must rule as a Caliphate for God. We ought to be able to do much, much more, and do it quite easily to greatly reduce this problem, and especially in the UK and Europe that should really not be so difficult to achieve … though it does require everyone (the authorities in particular) facing up to the reality of the problem (which is fundamentalist religious belief … as the jihadists themselves have repeatedly confirmed).

It's much harder to do that in far away Islamic nations such as Afghanistan. But the way to do it is still through education rather than physical wars. However, the reason that the current wars are probably inevitable in the first place, is that you need to remove the ruling (or attempted ruling) groups like ISIS and Al-Q first, before the west can help the greater population of those countries with much better educational opportunities and far more “Aid” to improve all aspects of their lives with better healthcare, better schools, transport infrastructure, far more stable democratic governments and much better relations with their neighbours and the west.
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