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Old 17th February 2019, 06:48 AM   #241
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On the Facebooks, I posted an article about Trump’s declaration and pointed out that there is no security crisis on the southern border. An old high school classmate’s response was, “So you’re for open borders?”

To my mind, this is a false dilemma bordering on (no pun intended) non sequitor. Why would no border wall over terrain that few, if any, make the attempt to cross necessarily equate to open borders? It’s a solution in need of a problem, so Trump merely imagined one.
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:52 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
On the Facebooks, I posted an article about Trump’s declaration and pointed out that there is no security crisis on the southern border. An old high school classmate’s response was, “So you’re for open borders?”

To my mind, this is a false dilemma bordering on (no pun intended) non sequitor. Why would no border wall over terrain that few, if any, make the attempt to cross necessarily equate to open borders? It’s a solution in need of a problem, so Trump merely imagined one.
I'm for open borders. You go tell them that someone who is actually for open borders doesn't think you are.
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:38 AM   #243
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You know what would work? A fence. Patrolled by tigers.
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Old 17th February 2019, 08:03 AM   #244
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In case any of y'all missed Trump's sing-songy routine during the emergency announcement, prepare to cringe with embarrassment and/or laugh your ass off, take your pick.

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Old 17th February 2019, 06:26 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
On the Facebooks, I posted an article about Trump’s declaration and pointed out that there is no security crisis on the southern border. An old high school classmate’s response was, “So you’re for open borders?”

To my mind, this is a false dilemma bordering on (no pun intended) non sequitor. Why would no border wall over terrain that few, if any, make the attempt to cross necessarily equate to open borders? It’s a solution in need of a problem, so Trump merely imagined one.
When I think about it, the term open borders has at least two different meanings.
1. It could refer to a physical barrier that would distinguish between the border of two different countries. Lack of a barrier would make that space open.
2. It could also refer to two different nations whom view every humans as sovereign, thereby some or all of those nations allow free and uninhibited travel from one territory to another.

Do you support either of the definitions I provided for open borders?

When Obama was president he declared a humanitarian crisis at the border. Very very few took issue with that statement. The major media platforms backed him up. Trump also believes that there is a crisis at the border. There is no debate on whether or not there is a crisis at the border; the debate is whether the US citizens should be concerned for themselves or non-citizens. The answer is the US should be concerned for both.

Do you know the story of Mexican Texas? While I was visiting the Arch in St Louis they had a slide show that taught me all about it.

A couple hundred years ago, Mexico owned the territory known today as Texas. The Mexican government did not control immigration to this Mexican territory. When Mexico realized that they were loosing this territory to US citizens they enacted a law that forbid US immigrants, but it was too late. A war ensued and Mexico Texas because a US territory and was renamed to Texas (It would have been just as easy for the inhabitants living in this territory to have taken the peaceful route of voting their allegiance to the US. God Bless Democracy).

This is a cautionary tale; the US took ownership of Texas due to Mexico's lack of control of US immigrants into their territory.
This completely transformed the lives of the people whom lived in this territory. Concern for uncontrolled immigration into a country isn't automatically racist or bigoted, sometimes it's a realistic concern that has been proven possible by historical examples.
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:34 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
When I think about it, the term open borders has at least two different meanings.
1. It could refer to a physical barrier that would distinguish between the border of two different countries. Lack of a barrier would make that space open.
2. It could also refer to two different nations whom view every humans as sovereign, thereby some or all of those nations allow free and uninhibited travel from one territory to another.

Do you support either of the definitions I provided for open borders?

When Obama was president he declared a humanitarian crisis at the border. Very very few took issue with that statement. The major media platforms backed him up. Trump also believes that there is a crisis at the border. There is no debate on whether or not there is a crisis at the border; the debate is whether the US citizens should be concerned for themselves or non-citizens. The answer is the US should be concerned for both.

Do you know the story of Mexican Texas? While I was visiting the Arch in St Louis they had a slide show that taught me all about it.

A couple hundred years ago, Mexico owned the territory known today as Texas. The Mexican government did not control immigration to this Mexican territory. When Mexico realized that they were loosing this territory to US citizens they enacted a law that forbid US immigrants, but it was too late. A war ensued and Mexico Texas because a US territory and was renamed to Texas (It would have been just as easy for the inhabitants living in this territory to have taken the peaceful route of voting their allegiance to the US. God Bless Democracy).

This is a cautionary tale; the US took ownership of Texas due to Mexico's lack of control of US immigrants into their territory.
This completely transformed the lives of the people whom lived in this territory. Concern for uncontrolled immigration into a country isn't automatically racist or bigoted, sometimes it's a realistic concern that has been proven possible by historical examples.
I don't think any US citizen have a legitimate concern for the wellbeing or future of US citizens. Heck, mathematically there is a chance getting rid of illegal immigrants could raise their chances of US citizens being the victims of violent crime.
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:36 PM   #247
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What seems to be forgotten is that the net flow of "illegals" (for want of a better word) is FROM the USA TO Mexico nowadays. Far more people leave the USA via the southern border than arrive.

So let's say this wall is indeed impenetrable. What it would be doing is stopping these "illegals" from actually going back home. You would be forcing them to stay in the USA, where they would presumably shoot thousands of sweet American babies with wild abandon, consume trillions of dollars of social services, pay zero taxes, and all vote for Hillary and her emails.

Of course this is ridiculously exaggerated. According to Rush and Hannity, it would be millions of babies.
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:07 PM   #248
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Shouldn't we be putting every airport and land border on 12 on 12 off shifts and rushing everyone in CBP on the third shift to the Southern Land Border to patrol between the ports of entry? Shouldn't all those Homeland Security criminal investigators working intellectual property crime cases be sent South as well? If this is really an emergency shouldn't we be doing emergency stuff?
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:09 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Shouldn't we be putting every airport and land border on 12 on 12 off shifts and rushing everyone in CBP on the third shift to the Southern Land Border to patrol between the ports of entry? Shouldn't all those Homeland Security criminal investigators working intellectual property crime cases be sent South as well? If this is really an emergency shouldn't we be doing emergency stuff?
We all need to go on a golfing weekend at Mar-a-Lago, tax-payer-paid.
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:36 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In case any of y'all missed Trump's sing-songy routine during the emergency announcement, prepare to cringe with embarrassment and/or laugh your ass off, take your pick.

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Yes, SNL should have done their skit by simply recreating Trump's announcement verbatim. Let people have their laugh about it, then inform them that they did not add any exaggerations or lines to drive home the point of how crazy agent orange is.
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:38 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Concern for uncontrolled immigration into a country isn't automatically racist or bigoted, sometimes it's a realistic concern that has been proven possible by historical examples.
Agreed. However, in this case of Trump's wall, it is racist and bigoted. It's all about keeping the brown people out.

Nice try, but such deception and trickery doesn't really work in this forum.
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:47 PM   #252
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I don't think anyone seriously thinks that border security is a trivial subject nor that racism doesn't figure in some situations. The Dems have made that abundantly clear, and Obama was certainly not reticent in enforcing southern border security himself.

Just that the White House has gone full 700-foot ICE-wall mode as their actual one-and-only security model. Like seriously into it. For realz. Even stealing the TV logos to promote it! They are trying to make the TV series real life. Which sort of gels with Donny's justifications which seem to come straight from shoot-em-up fictional movies rather than real life. It's Fantasyland, but even Disney knew that wasn't really real. Donny can't seem to make the distinction, because he and/or his team of nasty acolytes are demented.
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Old 17th February 2019, 08:17 PM   #253
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As I mentioned earlier in another thread despite being the longest, arguably peaceful-est, and probably most boring border in the world, the US and Canada are both weirdly anal about making sure our border is really, really obvious to a degree a lot of other countries don't bother with, maintaining a ~20 meter long "dead zone" free of trees and brush along the entire length (not withstanding a few weird cases here and there various reasons) for... no real reason.

Not to give any ammunition to Trump's nonsense, but 6 billion for a secured border does sound a little less crazy in the abstract when you compare to the 1.5 billion we spend just on keeping the US / Canada border neat and tidy.
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Old 17th February 2019, 08:29 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Texas should be returned to Mexico .
I can work with that
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Old 17th February 2019, 08:44 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
I can work with that
Nah.
The Southern border should be extended all the way to the Panama Canal - much easier to secure.
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Old 17th February 2019, 08:46 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
When I think about it, the term open borders has at least two different meanings.
1. It could refer to a physical barrier that would distinguish between the border of two different countries. Lack of a barrier would make that space open.
Like the Canadian-American border.. oh hang on - Trump's not trying to keep brown people from crossing that border... my bad

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
2. It could also refer to two different nations whom view every humans as sovereign, thereby some or all of those nations allow free and uninhibited travel from one territory to another.
Yeah, an example of a meaning for something that doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Do you support either of the definitions I provided for open borders?
No

The definition that Trump is using is -
"3. A policy in which the party neither cares about people entering the country illegally, nor wants to do anything about it"
He says this is the Democrat policy - he is a pants-on-fire liar. The Dems want no such thing; what they want is an immigration policy that is fair to everyone, and border security that is sophisticated, and up to date for the 21st century, not some dumb, worthless medieval wall that is no more than a vanity project for Dear Leader.

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
When Obama was president he declared a humanitarian crisis at the border. Very very few took issue with that statement. The major media platforms backed him up. Trump also believes that there is a crisis at the border. There is no debate on whether or not there is a crisis at the border; the debate is whether the US citizens should be concerned for themselves or non-citizens. The answer is the US should be concerned for both.
When Obama was talking about a crisis at the border he was talking about a crisis where people were in physical and emotional distress.

When Trump talks about a crisis at the border, he is talking about too many brown people being allowed to enter the country

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Do you know the story of Mexican Texas? While I was visiting the Arch in St Louis they had a slide show that taught me all about it.

A couple hundred years ago, Mexico owned the territory known today as Texas. The Mexican government did not control immigration to this Mexican territory. When Mexico realized that they were loosing this territory to US citizens they enacted a law that forbid US immigrants, but it was too late. A war ensued and Mexico Texas because a US territory and was renamed to Texas (It would have been just as easy for the inhabitants living in this territory to have taken the peaceful route of voting their allegiance to the US. God Bless Democracy).

This is a cautionary tale; the US took ownership of Texas due to Mexico's lack of control of US immigrants into their territory.
This completely transformed the lives of the people whom lived in this territory. Concern for uncontrolled immigration into a country isn't automatically racist or bigoted, sometimes it's a realistic concern that has been proven possible by historical examples.
What are you, a supporter of "Manifest Destiny"? That is a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened and why it happened.

In the early 1820s, the Mexican government actually encouraged American emigration into Texas in order to strengthen the economy of the territory and to increase their income from taxes. As large numbers of Americans came to live in Texas, they attempted to create their own power base. The key issue that lead to all the trouble was that those Americas came mostly from nearby southern states, and of course, they wanted to introduce slavery into a Mexico, a country where slavery was illegal (and that tells us all a bit about which of the two countries was more civilized). The result of this is that Santa Anna tried to become dictator of Texas, and after a number of different groups tried to claim government status, fighting broke out. Americans were hammered and decided to give up, but General Sam Houston kept a small force of troops together and launched a counter-offensive and defeated the Mexican Army. They took Santa Anna prisoner, and forced him to sign documents giving Texas independence.

The Americans still living in Texas were hoping to be annexed by the USA but President Jackson and most northerners were against it as they did not want to annex a new slave territory and thereby increase the Southern votes in Congress.

Texas was a wild and lawless expanse in the 1820's, hence the hiring of experiencedfrontiersmen as lawmen by Land Agent Stephen Austin - those frontiersmen later formally becoming known as Texas Rangers. To even suggest the idea that Mexicans coming to the USA could in any way repeat the Texas scenario is complete and utter hogwash; it tells me that you have little, if any, understanding about this history (as evidenced by your anecdotal tale of learning for the first time about it in a slide show).
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Old 17th February 2019, 09:00 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Like the Canadian-American border.. oh hang on - Trump's not trying to keep brown people from crossing that border... my bad



Yeah, an example of a meaning for something that doesn't exist.



No



When Obama was talking about a crisis at the border he was talking about a crisis where people were in physical and emotional distress.

When Trump talks about a crisis at the border, he is talking about too many brown people being allowed to enter the country



What are you, a supporter of "Manifest Destiny"? That is a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened and why it happened.

In the early 1820s, the Mexican government actually encouraged American emigration into Texas in order to strengthen the economy of the territory and to increase their income from taxes. As large numbers of Americans came to live in Texas, they attempted to create their own power base. The key issue that lead to all the trouble was that those Americas came mostly from nearby southern states, and of course, they wanted to introduce slavery into a Mexico, a country where slavery was illegal (and that tells us all a bit about which of the two countries was more civilized). The result of this is that Santa Anna tried to become dictator of Texas, and after a number of different groups tried to claim government status, fighting broke out. Americans were hammered and decided to give up, but General Sam Houston kept a small force of troops together and launched a counter-offensive and defeated the Mexican Army. They took Santa Anna prisoner, and forced him to sign documents giving Texas independence.

The Americans still living in Texas were hoping to be annexed by the USA but President Jackson and most northerners were against it as they did not want to annex a new slave territory and thereby increase the Southern votes in Congress.

Texas was a wild and lawless expanse in the 1820's, hence the hiring of experiences frontiersmen as lawmen by Land Agent Stephen Austin - those frontiersmen later formally becoming known as Texas Rangers. To even suggest the idea that Mexicans coming to the USA could in any way repeat the Texas scenario is complete and utter hogwash; it tells me that you have little, if any, understanding about this history (as evidenced by your anecdotal tale of learning for the first time about it in a slide show).
But he saw it on a slide show at a tourist attraction in another State. If we can't trust tourist sites who are we left to trust?

(Excellent post, btw.)

James Michener in his multi-millenia saga, Texas, had someone in the present (of the time it was written) twisting the tale in a different direction.... that the original settlers along the entire southwestern corridor from the Mississippi to the Pacific were originally Spanish/Mexican and that they weren't going to have to fire a single shot to "retake the whole area" because they were doing it through population growth. I had a huge argument with my usually liberal first wife at the time because she loved Michener's books (I have to confess a certain affinity for them) and didn't mind the xenophobic characterization. My argument then, as now, is that it misrepresents people who have been in situ for five centuries as "foreigners". And what, exactly, is anyone "losing" if people with Latin-American and Spanish ancestry represent the majority of certain states.
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Old 17th February 2019, 09:40 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
We all need to go on a golfing weekend at Mar-a-Lago, tax-payer-paid.
Please oh please Jim Acosta, ask if Trump would be willing to give up the portion of the DHS budget and Air Force budget used for trips to Florida and New Jersey to fund the wall.
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Old 17th February 2019, 10:02 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And what, exactly, is anyone "losing" if people with Latin-American and Spanish ancestry represent the majority of certain states.
Well, they will be losing their "whiteness" won't they!

ETA: Oh, and to be fair Jimmy Michener used to use to a fair bit of "artistic licence" in his novel writing. If he was a sci-fi writer. and writing in this day an age, Neil DeGrasse Tyson would say that he uses Mark Twian's edict: "gets your facts straight, and then distorts them at your leisure".
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Old 18th February 2019, 07:49 AM   #260
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If Trump manages to actually enact his national emergency, what are the odds he ends up defunding military building projects in a way that is advantageous to Putin?
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Old 18th February 2019, 07:57 AM   #261
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Has Trump come back from his golfing trip yet?
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Old 18th February 2019, 07:58 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is very threatening for American democracy. Trump and his cult is expecting this to go to the SCOTUS where they expect that they'll rule in Trump's favor. I find it very possible that it could happen, since there are 2 appointed Trump loyalists on the SCOTUS bench and, of the other 3 conservatives, only Roberts has some semblance of a spine to stand up against his own party's authoritarian leanings.
Even so, such an increase of presidential power might come back and bite them in the ass later on.
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Old 18th February 2019, 08:03 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Which begs the question: WHY the refusal to understand?

There's gotta be some kind of emotional payoff. That's all I can figure.
Look buddy, there is little point anymore in even trying to unscrew the unscrutable. For whatever reason, trump aficionados are immune to anything remotely within light years of reality.

Believe me. Bigly. Have a bigger orgasm, why not? Eat these steaks and instantly become a kind of tripod. Trump base is those who consider struggling up to the level of abject failure is some how unattainable.
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Old 18th February 2019, 08:07 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is very threatening for American democracy. Trump and his cult is expecting this to go to the SCOTUS where they expect that they'll rule in Trump's favor. I find it very possible that it could happen, since there are 2 appointed Trump loyalists on the SCOTUS bench and, of the other 3 conservatives, only Roberts has some semblance of a spine to stand up against his own party's authoritarian leanings.
Right now, that's still the thing that scares me the most. That Trump will be able to nominate another SCOTUS judge before whenever and however he leaves office.

As it stands now nothing Trump has done cannot be undone. But another SCOTUS judge (or two shudder to think) he puts on the Bench? We're stuck with that for a long, long, long time. And SCOTUS decisions are arguably a lot more powerful then legislation.

And... yeah Ginsburg health is always in question and none of them are exactly spring chickens. The death or medical disqualification of a SCOTUS member is always a not in the margins possibility.

As it stands now as said the only thing saving us is Roberts deciding to not be crazy roughly half the time for whatever reasons he has.

And it should be this way. SCOTUS has always been the branch of government where the members cross party lines and go against their primary political alignment most often. Both Democrats and Republics have felt the sting of "their" nominees voted against them and the country has been a better place for me in my opinion.

But now we've got two of the same type of political party insiders that have destroyed Congress from ever having a chance of ever being anything other than an impotent waste of oxygen on the bench.
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Old 18th February 2019, 08:27 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Even so, such an increase of presidential power might come back and bite them in the ass later on.
But when has that stopped the Republicans? They spent years banging on about the system being broken and that 'Washington insiders' couldn't be trusted and yet they were shocked when it turned out a big part of their base took them at the their word and voted for Trump. Also the embrace of evangelical Christians has made the political divide much worse. After all if you think god is on your side then your opponents aren't merely wrong or misguided, they are evil and there can be no compromise and you must do whatever it takes to defeat them, regardless of the consequences.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Look buddy, there is little point anymore in even trying to unscrew the unscrutable. For whatever reason, trump aficionados are immune to anything remotely within light years of reality.

Believe me. Bigly. Have a bigger orgasm, why not? Eat these steaks and instantly become a kind of tripod. Trump base is those who consider struggling up to the level of abject failure is some how unattainable.
They either don't care that he lies or they believe the 'deep state' garbage, or they simply don't care as long as Trump upsets the right people. I suspect the latter is what drives several of his supporters at ISF.
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Old 18th February 2019, 08:30 AM   #266
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And again I don't care which party wins in the end if the country doesn't.

You don't hand a gun to a chimp but argue "Well we can use the gun later to shoot a robber, that will show the chimp."
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Old 18th February 2019, 08:47 AM   #267
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"Open Borders" is today's "Death Panels". A right-wing buzzword based entirely on a falsehood.
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Old 18th February 2019, 08:48 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Open Borders" is today's "Death Panels". A right-wing buzzword based entirely on a falsehood.
good observation.
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Old 18th February 2019, 02:42 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Do you know the story of Mexican Texas? While I was visiting the Arch in St Louis they had a slide show that taught me all about it.

...historical inaccuracies snipped...
I am sorry to hear that an exhibit at the Gateway Arch National Park has promulgated so much disinformation about Texas history. I hope ServiceSoon is misremembering, influenced perhaps by his desire to distort Texas history in support of his own beliefs concerning current events.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That is a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened and why it happened.
This Texan-by-birth thanks smartcooky for correcting ServiceSoon.

(Texas history is sordid enough; we needn't invent.)

By the way, Antonio de Padua María Severino López de Santa Anna y Pérez de Lebrón was the sort of strongman the current POTUS likes to emulate. From that Wikipedia article:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Historians and many Mexicans also rank him as perhaps the principal inhabitant even today of Mexico's pantheon of "those who failed the nation."[10] His centralist rhetoric and military failures resulted in Mexico losing just over half its territory, beginning with the Texas Revolution of 1836, and culminating with the Mexican Cession of 1848 following its defeat by the United States in the Mexican–American War.
The Wikipedia articles linked in that excerpt will correct ServiceSoon's mistakes.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
But he saw it on a slide show at a tourist attraction in another State. If we can't trust tourist sites who are we left to trust?

(Excellent post, btw.)
I hope the slide show he saw was not put together by the National Park Service, or did not get so much wrong as he did.
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Old 18th February 2019, 04:10 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Open Borders" is today's "Death Panels". A right-wing buzzword based entirely on a falsehood.
And, the US will never be a socialist country is the new battle cry.
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Old 18th February 2019, 07:43 PM   #271
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Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Virginia, and California have sued over Trump's Emergency Declaration.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/18/polit...ncy/index.html
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:10 PM   #272
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The Dems ought to run spots mimicking the Disney World Superbowl commercials.....

Cue seven clips of Donnie Johnny decrying the crisis of humanity and declaring the national emergency (rather nonchalantly), then....

Announcer: Donald Trump, you've just declared a National Emergency, what are you going to do now?

Clip (must be numerous available out there) of Trump saying: We're going to Mar A Lago.
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:12 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The Dems ought to run spots mimicking the Disney World Superbowl commercials.....

Cue seven clips of Donnie Johnny decrying the crisis of humanity and declaring the national emergency (rather nonchalantly), then....

Announcer: Donald Trump, you've just declared a National Emergency, what are you going to do now?

Clip (must be numerous available out there) of Trump saying: We're going to Mar A Lago.
Dropping the umbrella? Tossing paper-towel rolls to the media scrum? Wandering off into the distance and getting fetched by a lackey? The ever-popular paper-stuck-to-the-shoe?
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:54 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Dropping the umbrella? Tossing paper-towel rolls to the media scrum? Wandering off into the distance and getting fetched by a lackey? The ever-popular paper-stuck-to-the-shoe?
The time he was in the truck.
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Old 18th February 2019, 10:03 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Virginia, and California have sued over Trump's Emergency Declaration.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/18/polit...ncy/index.html
I don't understand the argument. By passing the act saying how the president can use funds when he declares an emergency, isn't that Congress using their power of the purse?

It has a similar problem as that argument that the 25th amendment is unconstitutional.
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Old 18th February 2019, 10:09 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't understand the argument. By passing the act saying how the president can use funds when he declares an emergency, isn't that Congress using their power of the purse?

It has a similar problem as that argument that the 25th amendment is unconstitutional.
you assume that the separation of power is absolute - it isn't.
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Old 18th February 2019, 10:10 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't understand the argument. By passing the act saying how the president can use funds when he declares an emergency, isn't that Congress using their power of the purse?

It has a similar problem as that argument that the 25th amendment is unconstitutional.
No, because if Trump can use the Act the way he is -- for a non-emergency to finance an ego project for political purposes after Congress turned him down -- that would make the Act un-Constitutional.
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Old 18th February 2019, 10:12 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
No, because if Trump can use the Act the way he is -- for a non-emergency to finance an ego project for political purposes after Congress turned him down -- that would make the Act un-Constitutional.
By defining an emergency broadly, Congress authorised the allocation of funds for non-emergencies.
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Old 18th February 2019, 10:49 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
By defining an emergency broadly, Congress authorised the allocation of funds for non-emergencies.
And again, that broad an interpretation of the Act would make it un-Constitutional.
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Old 18th February 2019, 11:03 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
By defining an emergency broadly, Congress authorised the allocation of funds for non-emergencies.
How broadly?

What if Trump defined his National Emergency as "I need to build a MacDonalds outlet in the White House basement so I can order hamberders 24/7. And a Tiffany's shop for my main squeeze too." Do you think Congress would say payment for that is authorised with no questions asked? Surely there would be some oversight and potential brake-squeals from the Capital. It would be rightly considered a huge misunderstanding of what "National" and "Emergency" really mean. It isn't needed; it's just a personal whim.

Now consider this Wall "National Emergency". Trump has already conceded out loud it isn't even needed, he's just doing it because he wants to. So in what way is this different to the above in-house hamberder joint? Nothing much.
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