ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags border walls , donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 18th February 2019, 11:38 PM   #281
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,543
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The fact that the President doesn't pass laws, primarily.
Well, suppose Congress passes a law that says the president can also pass laws? That's the un-Constitutional equivalent of saying a president can appropriate money.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 02:33 AM   #282
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,373
https://twitter.com/DeadlineWH/statu...36340311695361

Quote:
NEWS: MSNBC National Security Analyst Jeremy Bash tells us more than 40 national security officials will sign joint declarations explaining why Trump's actions undermine national security and his declaration doesn't meet the test of an emergency w/ @NicolleDWallace
Video embedded in tweet.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 03:43 AM   #283
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,776
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Virginia, and California have sued over Trump's Emergency Declaration.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/18/polit...ncy/index.html
Wow, almost a third of the Union.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 03:45 AM   #284
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,776
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, suppose Congress passes a law that says the president can also pass laws? That's the un-Constitutional equivalent of saying a president can appropriate money.
Wouldn't that require an amendment?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 04:22 AM   #285
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,733
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
How
Now consider this Wall "National Emergency". Trump has already conceded out loud it isn't even needed, he's just doing it because he wants to. So in what way is this different to the above in-house hamberder joint? Nothing much.
And that admission is going to give the courts every reason to side with the states and individuals bringing cases before them.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 05:20 AM   #286
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,042
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
How broadly?

What if Trump defined his National Emergency as "I need to build a MacDonalds outlet in the White House basement so I can order hamberders 24/7. And a Tiffany's shop for my main squeeze too." Do you think Congress would say payment for that is authorised with no questions asked? Surely there would be some oversight and potential brake-squeals from the Capital. It would be rightly considered a huge misunderstanding of what "National" and "Emergency" really mean. It isn't needed; it's just a personal whim.

Now consider this Wall "National Emergency". Trump has already conceded out loud it isn't even needed, he's just doing it because he wants to. So in what way is this different to the above in-house hamberder joint? Nothing much.
Because congress would be addressing it, I could see a judge saying it is non justiciable.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 05:26 AM   #287
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,042
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, suppose Congress passes a law that says the president can also pass laws? That's the un-Constitutional equivalent of saying a president can appropriate money.
I'm generally on the side of non delegation doctrine advocates. We lose...a lot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondelegation_doctrine

Quote:
However, the Supreme Court ruled in J. W. Hampton, Jr. & Co. v. United States (1928)[1] that congressional delegation of legislative authority is an implied power of Congress that is constitutional so long as Congress provides an "intelligible principle" to guide the executive branch: "'In determining what Congress may do in seeking assistance from another branch, the extent and character of that assistance must be fixed according to common sense and the inherent necessities of the government co-ordination.' So long as Congress 'shall lay down by legislative act an intelligible principle to which the person or body authorized to [exercise the delegated authority] is directed to conform, such legislative action is not a forbidden delegation of legislative power.'"[2]

...

Only rarely has the Supreme Court invalidated laws as violations of the nondelegation doctrine.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 06:54 AM   #288
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,543
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wouldn't that require an amendment?
Yes, and that's the point: Passing legislation and appropriating money are powers reserved to Congress, and they can't be delegated without changing the Constitution. A somewhat similar case was the line item veto, which Congress did pass into law, but the Supreme Court decided it violated the Constitutional separation of powers.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 07:51 AM   #289
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,033
You all understand that Trump doesn't care if he gets the wall?

What he wants is 18 months of the media and democrats saying they don't care about the border of our country, they don't care about fentanyl deaths, they don't care about sex-trafficking.

Regardless of whether it will stop any of those things, he has framed it so they all look like they hate America, and he will use it to get reelected.

Last time it was drain the swamp, don't elect Hillary. This time it is going to be if you love America, don't elect these people who don't want to protect America.

As Admiral Akbar said: "ITS A TRAP!"
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:05 AM   #290
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,543
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You all understand that Trump doesn't care if he gets the wall?

What he wants is 18 months of the media and democrats saying they don't care about the border of our country, they don't care about fentanyl deaths, they don't care about sex-trafficking.

Regardless of whether it will stop any of those things, he has framed it so they all look like they hate America, and he will use it to get reelected.

Last time it was drain the swamp, don't elect Hillary. This time it is going to be if you love America, don't elect these people who don't want to protect America.

As Admiral Akbar said: "ITS A TRAP!"
Unless, of course, all the people that ignorant and gullible are already on the Trump Train, headed for the washed-out 2020 bridge. You may have missed it, but Democrats had a winning strategy in 2018: Get people who are sick of Trump to the voting booths.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:09 AM   #291
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,523
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You all understand that Trump doesn't care if he gets the wall?

What he wants is 18 months of the media and democrats saying they don't care about the border of our country, they don't care about fentanyl deaths, they don't care about sex-trafficking.
Y'all understand that it doesn't matter if there is not 18 months of media and democrats saying all those things, he'll simply claim they said all those things and his base will believe it?

"Truth isn't truth."
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:10 AM   #292
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,708
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You may have missed it, but Democrats had a winning strategy in 2018: Get people who are sick of Trump to the voting booths.
I am feeling the following two emotional response in equal measure.

1. I hope you are right.
2. I'll believe it when it see it.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:17 AM   #293
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,033
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Unless, of course, all the people that ignorant and gullible are already on the Trump Train, headed for the washed-out 2020 bridge. You may have missed it, but Democrats had a winning strategy in 2018: Get people who are sick of Trump to the voting booths.
Easy to have a winning strategy when Trump isn't up for election.

he's definitely got the winning strategy as long as the Dems keep walking into his traps.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:21 AM   #294
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,708
"Trump is obviously gonna lose. Lookit his support numbers" was the Dem's entire strategy in 2016 as well.

I swear I'm trying to get over this but "I don't understand. I keep explaining why he should be losing" ISN'T A GODDAMN STRATEGY.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:29 AM   #295
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,543
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Easy to have a winning strategy when Trump isn't up for election.

he's definitely got the winning strategy as long as the Dems keep walking into his traps.
Yeah, they really fell for that shut-down trap, huh.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:33 AM   #296
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,708
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Yeah, they really fell for that shut-down trap, huh.
Ah... yeah. They absolutely did.

In what world is Trump shutting down the government for over a month a win for the Democrats?

More "Oh it showed how bad he is and that eroded his base in ways that are completely invisible?"
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:50 AM   #297
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,776
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah... yeah. They absolutely did.

In what world is Trump shutting down the government for over a month a win for the Democrats?

More "Oh it showed how bad he is and that eroded his base in ways that are completely invisible?"
In the same way that Benghazi eroded Clinton's base in ways that were not visible until people went to the polls.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:54 AM   #298
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,708
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In the same way that Benghazi eroded Clinton's base in ways that were not visible until people went to the polls.
And again I really, really, with zero snark or ulterior motive hope that all this is correct. I really, really do.

I get it, and I'll honestly try to ease this button for a while because I'm working myself up a bit and I don't like that, but I'm trying real hard to balance "I hope this time is different" with "That's exactly what every said last time."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:10 AM   #299
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,776
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again I really, really, with zero snark or ulterior motive hope that all this is correct. I really, really do.

I get it, and I'll honestly try to ease this button for a while because I'm working myself up a bit and I don't like that, but I'm trying real hard to balance "I hope this time is different" with "That's exactly what every said last time."
The point is that public opinion can be swayed over long periods of time, and the people holding those opinions might not even realise it. All those things that _might_ damage Trump's image can build up over time and result in major changes.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:23 AM   #300
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,940
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again I really, really, with zero snark or ulterior motive hope that all this is correct. I really, really do.

I get it, and I'll honestly try to ease this button for a while because I'm working myself up a bit and I don't like that, but I'm trying real hard to balance "I hope this time is different" with "That's exactly what every said last time."
Joe, I like you, but you go on this type of rant at least once a week. I really don't know why you decry the lack of result when you don't have any apparent idea of what a positive result would be. Yes, I wish Trump would shrivel up into a tiny raisin and fall between the cracks of an old hardwood floor. But I think that's about as likely as his resignation.

So what do you actually want? Go ahead and paint me a rosy (though realistic) picture of a positive outcome. It's really not that easy, because a slim majority of the senate is controlled by evil people, and they're not going anywhere until the next election.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:27 AM   #301
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,543
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah... yeah. They absolutely did.

In what world is Trump shutting down the government for over a month a win for the Democrats?

More "Oh it showed how bad he is and that eroded his base in ways that are completely invisible?"
You're too cynical. In my world, when polls told Republican leaders that the shut-down ship was taking on water, they told the captain there was an override mutiny afoot to minimize damage to their own reelection prospects, and he caved. For that, even Ann Coulter is calling him an idiot, because that's how he looks now from whichever side you look -- if you look, that is, which his hardcore base studiously avoids.

But no sensible person should waste any more time pondering what it would take to erode Trump's base -- ain't gonna happen. But so what, when they are a 40% minority, neither shrinking nor growing? Trumpism must be defeated at the polls, and 2018 showed that it can be. All Trump can do is hope that Hillary runs again, and depending on what Mueller has on him, even that might not save his sorry ass.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:30 AM   #302
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,708
I'll ease off it guys, okay?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:30 AM   #303
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Some polling numbers out, and as expected, the majority of people are against the declaration of a National Emergency.

From: https://www.npr.org/2019/02/19/69572...onal-emergency
More than 6-in-10 Americans disapprove of President Trump's decision to declare a national emergency so he can build barriers along the U.S border with Mexico, a new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll finds.

The results do seem to be split along party lines, with most Republicans favoring the declaration, and most Democrats against it. More importantly though, a majority of independent voters are against the National Emergency declaration. So, while it may help placate Trump's voter base, its not likely to add any new voters.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:43 AM   #304
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,354
I wish they'd start breaking out results of these polls by state. It's time to start tracking what issues move the needle in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Ohio.

Last edited by Craig4; 19th February 2019 at 09:45 AM.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 10:42 AM   #305
Lurch
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 812
I understand JoeMorgue's cynicism. A *significant* minority of Americans are stoopid. It only takes that lot fired up to vote to outdo a more apathetic majority. The Dem voters must have it pounded into their heads that *every* damned vote counts.

And if a Shultz third party effort siphons off more Dem leaners than GOP leaners, the danger is enhanced.

So yeah, while it's *hopefully* not doom 'n gloom yet, there remains real potential for another WTF election.
Lurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 10:49 AM   #306
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I understand JoeMorgue's cynicism. A *significant* minority of Americans are stoopid. It only takes that lot fired up to vote to outdo a more apathetic majority. The Dem voters must have it pounded into their heads that *every* damned vote counts.

And if a Shultz third party effort siphons off more Dem leaners than GOP leaners, the danger is enhanced.

So yeah, while it's *hopefully* not doom 'n gloom yet, there remains real potential for another WTF election.
His other problem is going to replicating his success with disillusioned voters now that he's a known quantity.

Quote:
This disillusioned group -- 14% of all voters -- broke heavily for Trump: 69% to 15%, according to exit polls. About 1 in 7 in this group voted for someone other than the major party candidates. Most were independent voters, with 38% Republicans and 18% Democrats. Had they sat out the election instead, Clinton would have won in a landslide with 53% of the vote to Trump's 44%. Further evidence of this disillusionment can perhaps be found in total voter turnout; while votes are still being counted, early indications are that turnout is on par with its lowest rate in 20 years.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 01:14 PM   #307
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,583
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I think the problem is worse than that for Trump. People are more likely to turnout to vote against something or someone. This is why negative advertising works. No need to make Trump out to be worse than he is. He really is that bad.
As crazy as Trump was during the campaign there will be no hiding behind the idea that Trump will be different as President. No rising to the occasion.

There is not going to be a turnout problem in that election. There won't be a Democratic candidate who was vilified and investigated EVERY DAY for 4 years leading into the election. No Ben Ghazzi or Hillary's emails to run up their unfavorable. They'll have 6 months at most.

I'm convinced that people will be stoked to vote against Trump. No one will believe the polls becoming overconfident either.
__________________
ď A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. Ē
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 01:56 PM   #308
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,033
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Yeah, they really fell for that shut-down trap, huh.
That was exactly how he wanted that to play out.

The Dems refused to come to the table and settle this in a bi-partisan fashion, and were unwilling to do something as terrible as secure the border, to stop the shutdown.

They were forced to tell America that they weren't willing to protect the border, in exchange for reopening the government.

Trump frames it as he would shut down the government to protect Americans, and the Dems will shut down the government to protect illegal immigrant criminals.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 02:04 PM   #309
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,523
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
That was exactly how he wanted that to play out.

The Dems refused to come to the table and settle this in a bi-partisan fashion, and were unwilling to do something as terrible as secure the border, to stop the shutdown.

They were forced to tell America that they weren't willing to protect the border, in exchange for reopening the government.
What are you talking about? None of that happened.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Trump frames it as he would shut down the government to protect Americans, and the Dems will shut down the government to protect illegal immigrant criminals.
Trump will frame it to his advantage regardless of what actually happened. The vast majority of Americans blamed Trump for his shut down and do not believe there is a security emergency on the boarder.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 02:05 PM   #310
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,033
Like I said, for the next 18 months you can keep telling Americans there is no emergency at the border, and that drug deaths and sex trafficking don't matter to you.

You won't win telling America that.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 02:14 PM   #311
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,523
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Like I said, for the next 18 months you can keep telling Americans there is no emergency at the border, and that drug deaths and sex trafficking don't matter to you.

You won't win telling America that.


Who is telling America that, exactly?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 03:52 PM   #312
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,572
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
That was exactly how he wanted that to play out.

The Dems refused to come to the table and settle this in a bi-partisan fashion, and were unwilling to do something as terrible as secure the border, to stop the shutdown.

They were forced to tell America that they weren't willing to protect the border, in exchange for reopening the government.

Trump frames it as he would shut down the government to protect Americans, and the Dems will shut down the government to protect illegal immigrant criminals.

Trump refused a bipartsan bill and shut the government down for a month.

Only to accept another bipartisan bill which gave him less than he had refused and shut down the government for.

And this is the Democrats' fault ... how?
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 03:56 PM   #313
Lurch
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 812
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Like I said, for the next 18 months you can keep telling Americans there is no emergency at the border, and that drug deaths and sex trafficking don't matter to you.

You won't win telling America that.
Drug deaths result from folks *wanting* and *buying* and *taking* drugs. They well know the dangers. It's their *choice* to do this. Money would be far better spent helping these people get off the drugs. The war on drugs is just one long litany of abject failure. And a Wall would be just one more chimerical part of this losing strategy. Follow the example of Portugal.

Funny how so much more angst and hand-wringing is engendered among the right-wingers concerning self-inflicted dying by *voluntary* drug use, but no such spurring to action in the sphere of tragic deaths by *involuntary* gunfire.

If I had to assign a scale of tragedy, an innocent victim of a shooting would engender rather more sympathy from me than would a junkie who overdoses. And note that my youngest brother recently died of a drug overdose, likely from fentanyl.
Lurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 03:58 PM   #314
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,213
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Like I said, for the next 18 months you can keep telling Americans there is no emergency at the border
Quote:
Jackbooted thugs are kidnapping children.

and that drug deaths and sex trafficking don't matter to you.

You won't win telling America that.
And you'll hardly convince anyone who hasn't said that they actually said that.

Your attempt at shaming and embarrassing others into silence is deeply insulting.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 03:59 PM   #315
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The Dems refused to come to the table and settle this in a bi-partisan fashion, and were unwilling to do something as terrible as secure the border, to stop the shutdown.
Nope. Wrong. Bzzzzt. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

The democrats had no problem with securing the border. They had no problem with programs like enhanced electronic monitoring. (Which actually does help border security.)

What they didn't want to do was fund a border wall, which would have done little or nothing to provide real security, and would have cost U.S. taxpayers hundreds of dollars each.

Got it?
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 04:02 PM   #316
Elvis666
Critical Thinker
 
Elvis666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 381
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I understand JoeMorgue's cynicism. A *significant* minority of Americans are stoopid. It only takes that lot fired up to vote to outdo a more apathetic majority. The Dem voters must have it pounded into their heads that *every* damned vote counts.
You are not wrong. But the Democratic Party has to realize that calling a significant portion of the voters derogatory names will result in some of the independent minority turning against them, even if those independents are not meant to be included in that group. I think the Dems have to field a candidate who is running for the presidency, instead of against Trump.
__________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Elvis666 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 04:18 PM   #317
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 8,807
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Drug deaths result from folks *wanting* and *buying* and *taking* drugs. They well know the dangers. It's their *choice* to do this. Money would be far better spent helping these people get off the drugs. The war on drugs is just one long litany of abject failure. And a Wall would be just one more chimerical part of this losing strategy. Follow the example of Portugal.

Funny how so much more angst and hand-wringing is engendered among the right-wingers concerning self-inflicted dying by *voluntary* drug use, but no such spurring to action in the sphere of tragic deaths by *involuntary* gunfire.

If I had to assign a scale of tragedy, an innocent victim of a shooting would engender rather more sympathy from me than would a junkie who overdoses. And note that my youngest brother recently died of a drug overdose, likely from fentanyl.
Perhaps more to the point, I believe that the wall will make little or no difference in illegal immigration. However, if adequately guarded, it might make a small difference. I know that the wall will not have even a small impact on drug smuggling. Given the amount of cross-border trade, drug smugglers will have no problem concealing drugs in commercial shipments. Besides, interdiction and prohibition are a failed approach to drug problems. They have never worked, and never will, for any kind of drugs.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 06:14 PM   #318
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,042
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
That was exactly how he wanted that to play out.

The Dems refused to come to the table and settle this in a bi-partisan fashion, and were unwilling to do something as terrible as secure the border, to stop the shutdown.

They were forced to tell America that they weren't willing to protect the border, in exchange for reopening the government.

Trump frames it as he would shut down the government to protect Americans, and the Dems will shut down the government to protect illegal immigrant criminals.
The wall is unpopular. Trump's views were soundly rejected in the presidential election. That was before he failed to secure Mexican funding. Democrats running on no wall platform crushed the republicans in the house and senate. There isn't a world in which democrats need to come to the table and the polling proved that.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 07:09 PM   #319
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,543
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Like I said, for the next 18 months you can keep telling Americans there is no emergency at the border, and that drug deaths and sex trafficking don't matter to you.

You won't win telling America that.
On planet Earth: Broad disapproval of Trump's national emergency mirrors a critical 2020 problem for Trump
(paywalled)

Originally Posted by Washington Post
Weíre pretty far down a tricky path for President Trump, whose promises on the 2016 campaign trail to build a wall on the border with Mexico were never likely to come to fruition given the process for getting legislation passed by Congress. Much of the focus on Trumpís bold assertions focused on his proclamations that Mexico would cover the costs for the wall, but the wall itself, particularly as described by Trump and particularly once it became intermingled with Trumpís views on immigration, faced a rocky path forward.

During the past two months, the bumpiness of the path became manifest: Trump blocked government funding to try to force Democrats to capitulate; they didnít; he took the loss. But on Friday, Trump launched a last-ditch effort to move the wall forward, declaring a national emergency focused on the border, potentially allowing him to allocate money to get it built. The courts will probably decide if that happens.

The move is not popular. As our Aaron Blake wrote on Tuesday morning, a new NPR-PBS NewsHour-Marist poll shows only about a third of the country thinks the declaration was a good idea. As you might expect, Republicans were more supportive than Democrats.
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 07:46 PM   #320
BadBoy
Graduate Poster
 
BadBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,429
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Funny how so much more angst and hand-wringing is engendered among the right-wingers concerning self-inflicted dying by *voluntary* drug use, but no such spurring to action in the sphere of tragic deaths by *involuntary* gunfire.
No idea what the "right wingers" think, but for me the issue with drugs is not the actual drug taking usually, it is all the crime associated with it like getting your house broken into by a junky who needs his next fix, or the collateral damage from stray bullets from drug related gang shootings etc etc.

I don't think people generally care if someone gets wasted in the privacy of their own home.
__________________
Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here
BadBoy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.