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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Finland history

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Old 13th February 2018, 11:39 AM   #481
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They had a civil war?
No, they had a series of very uncivil wars.
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:34 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
40,000 out of a population of 3-3.5 million.
That's 1% and a bit?

To give an example, the population of England at the time of the Civil Wars was about 5 million. Some 200,000 people died during them. That's about 4%. Ireland was far (faaaar) worse off as well.
The yardstick is the magnitude. For example, 'numbers killed per diem/week/month'.

Quote:
The civil war was a catastrophe for Finland. In only a few months, about 30,000 Finns perished, less than a quarter of them on the battlefield, the rest in summary executions and in detention camps. These deaths amounted to about 1 percent of the total population of Finland. By comparison, the bloodiest war in the history of the United States, the Civil War, cost the lives of about 2 percent of the population, but that loss was spread out over four years.
http://countrystudies.us/finland/15.htm

Since then, of course, we have had the Bosnian, Biafran, etc., wars, etc, but as of the time the Finnish Civil war was considered the worst in terms of ferocity. It only lasted four months, so course there are fewer casualties than one that lasts four years.
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:47 PM   #483
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Apropos of this, I almost missed this BBC News item 24 Jan 2018, about the Finnish government plans to rebury the fallen Reds in the civil war who lie in a mass grave and give them individual coffins.

Quote:
While the White Guards involved in the battle for Heinola buried their dead in cemeteries, fleeing communist Reds who died in large numbers during their breakout from the Vierumäki district of the city in the spring of 1918 weren't afforded the same dignity, and were buried in a mass grave.

Now, plans proposed by the city government and one of the companies in the industrial park hope to identify the 300 communist fighters in the grave and bury them in individual coffins in one of three local cemeteries.
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:35 AM   #484
Tolls
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The yardstick is the magnitude. For example, 'numbers killed per diem/week/month'.
Do you have to jump through hoops like this?
The Russian Civil War cost the lives of some 9 million people. That was about 7% of the population.

The Spanish Civil War cost about half a million, which was some 4-5% of the population.

If you want pre-Finnish Civil War, how about the Taiping rebellion? That was over 20 million, in a small area of China.

Or the concentration camps of the Boer War?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
http://countrystudies.us/finland/15.htm

Since then, of course, we have had the Bosnian, Biafran, etc., wars, etc, but as of the time the Finnish Civil war was considered the worst in terms of ferocity. It only lasted four months, so course there are fewer casualties than one that lasts four years.
And?
I'm not saying it wasn't a terrible event, but I am saying you don't have to make out it was one of the worst..indeed "unparalleled". It wasn't.
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Old 14th February 2018, 03:56 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Do you have to jump through hoops like this?
The Russian Civil War cost the lives of some 9 million people. That was about 7% of the population.

The Spanish Civil War cost about half a million, which was some 4-5% of the population.

If you want pre-Finnish Civil War, how about the Taiping rebellion? That was over 20 million, in a small area of China.

Or the concentration camps of the Boer War?



And?
I'm not saying it wasn't a terrible event, but I am saying you don't have to make out it was one of the worst..indeed "unparalleled". It wasn't.

I was quoting what historians say. You have missed the point about magnitude.

Had you extrapolated the Finnish Civil War to be like-for like with the American Civil War you'd see that in terms of ferociousness, if 4 months = 1.2% of the population (of which a huge number were aged 16 -20) and 4 years = 2% of the population (America) it is apparent that the Finnish Civil War was eight times more intense.
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Old 14th February 2018, 04:04 AM   #486
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Which is a rubbish way of looking at these things.
It ignores the simple fact that the other examples I gave were not at a constant level of violence and death.

For example, the French had some 26,000 men killed on a single day in August 1914.
If I were to scale that up to 4 months, that would be some 3 million. Which would be 8% of the population of France.

Unparalleled!
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Old 14th February 2018, 08:28 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I was quoting what historians say. You have missed the point about magnitude.

Had you extrapolated the Finnish Civil War to be like-for like with the American Civil War you'd see that in terms of ferociousness, if 4 months = 1.2% of the population (of which a huge number were aged 16 -20) and 4 years = 2% of the population (America) it is apparent that the Finnish Civil War was eight times more intense.

The American Civil War was intense for twelve times as long.

And that was only from the declaration of war to the surrender. Violent civil unrest had been going on for years before, and lasted for years afterward. By some measures to this day.
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