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Old 28th November 2017, 07:53 PM   #121
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
They do, but they also need to get re-elected, and right now the polls show the public does not support the tax plans. (And while most Republican voters support the plan, its far from universal.)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/18/politi...orm/index.html

Lets face it, the republican base doesn't seem to be very smart. Just tell them you did something and they'll believe it.
They don't care about public opinion. After all, they pick who gets to vote and who doesn't. Expect more voter suppression laws to pass in 2018.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:03 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Reagan's tax cuts during his first term are often used to support the idea that revenue grows after tax cuts. Accepting this requires that you ignore the effect of double digit inflation. Adjusted for inflation revenues went down substantially after those tax cuts.
Plus I'm not sure where the idea came from that if businesses have piles of money laying around, they hire people to help get rid of it.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:37 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Plus I'm not sure where the idea came from that if businesses have piles of money laying around, they hire people to help get rid of it.
It's a GOP scam. They've been shown the polls of businesses asking what they would do with the tax cut benefit and a small number said they'd expand their business, not even sure that means raising anyone's salary.

Then there is the fact a lot of these businesses are already flush with cash. How is giving them more going to make them spend on growing supply when there is no demand.

Here's a likely scenario, keeping in mind the people lobbying the GOP legislators for these tax cuts are rich John Bircher influenced billionaires like the Kochs and the Mercers.

So, the deficit grows and the next step is the GOP claiming they have to cut Medicare and Social Security because entitlements are the reason for the unmanageable dangerous deficits. Notice the Bait and Switch if you didn't.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:39 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Holy ****** The chart on page 10 of the CBO score of the bill. This is literally robing the poor to pay the rich.
And that surprises you somehow?
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:42 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And that surprises you somehow?
There's usually an attempt at smoke and mirrors to hide that fact. The Bush tax cuts actually cut everyone's taxes but just cut the rich's more.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:52 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
There's usually an attempt at smoke and mirrors to hide that fact. The Bush tax cuts actually cut everyone's taxes but just cut the rich's more.
Actually, I believe the right and especially the alt-right have given up on smoke and mirrors and just go with blatant lies. It seems to work as well.
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Old 28th November 2017, 10:19 PM   #127
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They know the bill is awful and unpopular, that's why they are passing it with no public hearings, no public comment period, and no shame. There were lot's of protesters during the committee vote on the bill unreported by the mainstream media. They want to pass this thing fast so they can avoid more protests.
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Last edited by thaiboxerken; 28th November 2017 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 29th November 2017, 04:33 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Holy ****** The chart on page 10 of the CBO score of the bill. This is literally robing the poor to pay the rich.
Republican goals 101 really.
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Old 29th November 2017, 05:06 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Plus I'm not sure where the idea came from that if businesses have piles of money laying around, they hire people to help get rid of it.

This is the really sad part. There's evidence if industry gets a tax cut windfall they'll use the money to eliminate jobs by investing in more automation. That mostly affects working class/middle income people.

This is from a New Yorker article entitled "Dark Factories":
Quote:
“It’s not that we’re running out of work or jobs per se,” David Autor, an M.I.T. economist who studies the impact of automation on employment, said. “But a subset of people with low skill levels may not be able to earn a reasonable standard of living based on their labor. We see that already.” As automation depresses wages, jobs in factories become both less abundant and less appealing. Link
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Old 29th November 2017, 05:56 AM   #130
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When you look at how much money has poured into Wall Street in recent years, driven by nothing but speculation that money will keep pouring in to drive prices even higher, it's impossible to make a serious claim that rich people don't have enough money to create new jobs. In this economy, it's clear that rich people would rather gamble on a continuing market bubble than gamble on creating new jobs that might not be profitable. This tax cut will primarily mean that they will have more money to gamble with, which will drive the bubble beyond any sane limit, and the only winners will be those who cash out of the game before the inevitable collapse.
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Old 29th November 2017, 06:02 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
When you look at how much money has poured into Wall Street in recent years, driven by nothing but speculation that money will keep pouring in to drive prices even higher, it's impossible to make a serious claim that rich people don't have enough money to create new jobs. In this economy, it's clear that rich people would rather gamble on a continuing market bubble than gamble on creating new jobs that might not be profitable. This tax cut will primarily mean that they will have more money to gamble with, which will drive the bubble beyond any sane limit, and the only winners will be those who cash out of the game before the inevitable collapse.
And then they'll blame the collapseon Democrats. Genius.
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Old 29th November 2017, 06:02 AM   #132
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More money in the hands of the rich means more donations for political campaigns - it might just be as simple as that.
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Old 29th November 2017, 06:23 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And then they'll blame the collapseon Democrats. Genius.
And they'll complain about the spike in debt/deficit because of this tax-scam as an excuse to destroy the social safety nets.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:01 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
There were lot's of protesters during the committee vote on the bill unreported by the mainstream media. They want to pass this thing fast so they can avoid more protests.
So much for the "liberal" media...
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:43 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
This is the really sad part. There's evidence if industry gets a tax cut windfall they'll use the money to eliminate jobs by investing in more automation. That mostly affects working class/middle income people.
Automation is not just a blue-collar disease any longer. Increasing numbers of formerly solid white-collar jobs are either being eliminated entirely or are being made vulnerable to outsourcing/offshoring by technology.

Examples:

Accounting: Quickbooks, Turbotax, and other such software allow increasing numbers of people to do their own basic accounting work and prepare/file taxes.

Legal: Legalzoom and other online legal forms sites allow many people needing standard legal paperwork to do their own the same as in accounting. Paralegals are often then used to do the actual court filing, reducing them to little more than the role of courier. Accounts of paralegal working conditions that are more appropriate for sweatshops are becoming commonplace online.

Medical: the internet makes it possible for your CT scan or ekg/eeg to be read by a specialist in low-wage nations like India, depriving opportunities for doctors in the US. This has developed slower than similar situations due to licensing requirements, etc, but is growing.

IT: any time work can be done remotely, it is vulnerable to the same outsourcing/offshoring. This has been going on for over a decade, from Indian IT support centers, through schemes like Seacode's infamous "floating IT support/programming center", up to the current abuse of H1B visas to bring in cheap contract workers to replace well-paid US workers

(Note that "computer skills will bring us jobs" was the original defense by those pushing automation on blue-collar workers.)

Banking: seperate from accounting, banking apps are taking the lead even from ATMs as replacements for many standard banking needs (withdrawals, deposits, etc)

It doesn't have to be this way. There is no law of nature that says we must permit technology to hollow out our low/moderate-skill job base. We can say "NO!"

We must, or we must radically re-order the distribution of wealth and resources if we are to keep our economy going.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:29 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Good news! Corker is on the Senate Budget Committee and his vote alone could prevent it from passing out of committee!

Just kidding. We all know they're spineless

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...kely-this-week


Or maybe Republican spines are just removable. He had it in place at the beginning of the day but then it started to chafe so he had to remove it later prior to the vote.
This could be really messy for the Republicans.

To get Corker on side, they had to add a provision to automatically raise taxes if the deficit increases. But some republicans are completely against any sort of automatic tax increase trigger.

From your referenced article:
Some Republicans signaled opposition to a trigger, including Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana. "I am not going to vote to implement automatic tax increases on the American people,” he said. “If I do that, consider me drunk."

Then there is Alaskan senator Murkowski, who was initially against the bill (I think because it might affect health care), but they got her on side with a promise to allow oil drilling in Alaskan wildlife refuges. The only problem is, at least 2 republican senators (Collins of Maine and McCain) are against the drilling, and both have voted against the republicans in the past over health care.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:52 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
It doesn't have to be this way. There is no law of nature that says we must permit technology to hollow out our low/moderate-skill job base. We can say "NO!"

We must, or we must radically re-order the distribution of wealth and resources if we are to keep our economy going.
Technological and productivity advancements can't be stopped short of every nation in the world agreeing to do so. A single nation could try, but I think the negative effects would be even worse.

Redistribution is really the only way.
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Old 29th November 2017, 12:40 PM   #138
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Congress wants to raise taxes on the middle class in order to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy.
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Old 29th November 2017, 12:46 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
They know the bill is awful and unpopular, that's why they are passing it with no public hearings, no public comment period, and no shame. There were lot's of protesters during the committee vote on the bill unreported by the mainstream media. They want to pass this thing fast so they can avoid more protests.


How did you know about it?

I saw it several times on the msm yesterday.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 29th November 2017 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 29th November 2017, 12:47 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
More money in the hands of the rich means more donations for political campaigns - it might just be as simple as that.
And they earn huge returns on those lobby/campaign dollars invested.
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Old 29th November 2017, 12:50 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
...Medical: the internet makes it possible for your CT scan or ekg/eeg to be read by a specialist in low-wage nations like India, depriving opportunities for doctors in the US. This has developed slower than similar situations due to licensing requirements, etc, but is growing...
Where is this happening?
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Old 29th November 2017, 12:56 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Quote:
Medical: the internet makes it possible for your CT scan or ekg/eeg to be read by a specialist in low-wage nations like India
Where is this happening?
Well, the U.S. for one...

From: https://www.zmescience.com/research/...sourced-05354/
if you took an X-ray in the past decade, there’s a 90% chance it was read by somebody elsewhere in the world
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Old 30th November 2017, 06:32 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, the U.S. for one...

From: https://www.zmescience.com/research/...sourced-05354/
if you took an X-ray in the past decade, there’s a 90% chance it was read by somebody elsewhere in the world
I don't find that source credible. No, just no. They are using cherry-editing.

I know for a fact that 90% figure is bull ****. A lot of facilities outsource to radiology services, but not to India. I even do work for a radiology service, they are the source for the orthopedic surgeons I also do work with.

Almost all regular doctors outsource radiology to experts, it's the nature of the specialty. But those experts are generally nearby.
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Old 30th November 2017, 06:40 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Technological and productivity advancements can't be stopped short of every nation in the world agreeing to do so. A single nation could try, but I think the negative effects would be even worse.

Redistribution is really the only way.
Jobs are not benefits to society. They are costs.
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Old 1st December 2017, 12:35 AM   #145
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argue that in "Economics, Business, and Finance " Bob
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Old 1st December 2017, 03:09 AM   #146
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McCain's on board with the tax cuts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42187322


Quote:
A key Republican senator says he will vote for his party's controversial tax plan.

Arizona's John McCain revealed he would back the legislation, although he described it as "far from perfect".
Back to the usual McCain, big talk but then folding like a cheap deckchair when the vote comes around.
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Old 1st December 2017, 07:43 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
McCain's on board with the tax cuts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42187322




Back to the usual McCain, big talk but then folding like a cheap deckchair when the vote comes around.
Then again, they added some pork to benefit Arizona.
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Old 1st December 2017, 07:45 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Jobs are not benefits to society. They are costs.
Yeah and food is not nourishment. It's an expense.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:36 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Jobs are not benefits to society. They are costs.
As the system is cyclical, they can be both.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:38 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Then again, they added some pork to benefit Arizona.
When you've been in D.C. a while, you learn how to strategically show hesitation to get on board with something as a way to politely ask to be bribed first.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:42 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Re: Outsourcing of radiological services...
Quote:
Well, the U.S. for one...

From: https://www.zmescience.com/research/...sourced-05354/
if you took an X-ray in the past decade, there’s a 90% chance it was read by somebody elsewhere in the world

I don't find that source credible. No, just no. They are using cherry-editing.

I know for a fact that 90% figure is bull ****. A lot of facilities outsource to radiology services, but not to India.
Well, first of all, I don't think the article says '90% of X-rays are read in india'... it says 90% of X-rays are read "elsewhere"... some of which may be in india, some may be in other countries, some may be within the same country but in a different state, etc.

However, outsourcing X-rays to india does happen. If you don't like the source above, fine... here's another source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2747412/
The first teleradiology company in India, Teleradiology Solutions, was set up in 2002 with its base in Bangalore. Dr Arjun Kalyanpur and his colleagues, all US board-certified radiologists, read scans for hospitals in the USA...

The article doesn't give the percentage of scans that are read by Indian doctors, but its obvious it does happen.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:52 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
McCain's on board with the tax cuts:

Back to the usual McCain, big talk but then folding like a cheap deckchair when the vote comes around.
Sad that he folded like that.

However, it looks like there may be a tiny glimmer of hope to those wanting the bill defeated.

Remember how I pointed out that the only way they could get Senator Corker on side was to implement some sort of "trigger" that would increase taxes if the deficit increased?

From: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37138284/
Republican Senator Bob Corker and others had tried to add a provision to the bill to trigger automatic future tax increases if the tax cuts in the bill did not boost the economy and generate revenues sufficient to offset the deficit expansion. But the Senate parliamentarian barred Corker's "trigger" proposal on procedural grounds. The trigger amendment was needed to win Corker's vote and those of others worried about the deficit – worries that intensified when congressional analysts said the bill would not boost the economy enough to offset the estimated deficit expansion, as the Trump administration had said it would.

So, Corker says "I'll support the bill if you add the trigger". They add the trigger. Corker supports it. Then they say "Sorry, no trigger for you". Which means that he (and others concerned about the deficit) may vote against it when it comes up for debate.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:01 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Sad that he folded like that.

However, it looks like there may be a tiny glimmer of hope to those wanting the bill defeated.

Remember how I pointed out that the only way they could get Senator Corker on side was to implement some sort of "trigger" that would increase taxes if the deficit increased?

From: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37138284/
Republican Senator Bob Corker and others had tried to add a provision to the bill to trigger automatic future tax increases if the tax cuts in the bill did not boost the economy and generate revenues sufficient to offset the deficit expansion. But the Senate parliamentarian barred Corker's "trigger" proposal on procedural grounds. The trigger amendment was needed to win Corker's vote and those of others worried about the deficit – worries that intensified when congressional analysts said the bill would not boost the economy enough to offset the estimated deficit expansion, as the Trump administration had said it would.

So, Corker says "I'll support the bill if you add the trigger". They add the trigger. Corker supports it. Then they say "Sorry, no trigger for you". Which means that he (and others concerned about the deficit) may vote against it when it comes up for debate.
I doubt it, Corker gets to say that he tried to get the trigger - so he's covered - and the parliamentarian says it's barred on procedural grounds so everyone else is covered. It's a win/win for the GOP and billionaires, and a lose/lose for anyone earning less than $75k
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:10 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I doubt it, Corker gets to say that he tried to get the trigger - so he's covered - and the parliamentarian says it's barred on procedural grounds so everyone else is covered. It's a win/win for the GOP and billionaires, and a lose/lose for anyone earning less than $75k
The point of the trigger was to keep the deficit in check. Corker could just as easily say "I wanted to give you that big tax cut but I was stopped".

Corker (at this point) owes no loyalty to Trump or the republican leadership. I'm not saying that he's a principled politicians (he did after all vote for Trumps various judicial and cabinet nominations), but he may just be willing to throw a wrench into the works, either to piss off Trump, because he actually does feel the deficit is important, or he wants a better legacy than "hypocritical republican senator".

No guarantee of any of that (that's why I said it was a "glimmer" of hope.) But remember, they were supposed to bring the bill up Thursday night/Friday morning. It keeps getting pushed back.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:24 AM   #155
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Does anyone think that this whole scheme may be a cynical ploy by the Republicans to harm the Democrats?

Think about it... the Republicans are saddled with an unpopular president, and with shifting demographics (i.e. higher proportion of minorities) they will eventually start losing seats in congress. They may already be expecting that they will lose the next few elections (both mid-terms and presidential).

The tax cuts will end up driving up the deficit. In addition, there is talk about making some of the tax cuts in the bill temporary. So whomever is running the country in 5 or 10 years may end up being very unpopular as they have to deal with the problems this tax bill causes.

So, the republicans may be planning on passing their bill, with the hope/expectation that it will cause problems for the Democrats if/when they eventually take control of the presidency and/or congress.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:49 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Does anyone think that this whole scheme may be a cynical ploy by the Republicans to harm the Democrats?

Think about it... the Republicans are saddled with an unpopular president, and with shifting demographics (i.e. higher proportion of minorities) they will eventually start losing seats in congress. They may already be expecting that they will lose the next few elections (both mid-terms and presidential).

The tax cuts will end up driving up the deficit. In addition, there is talk about making some of the tax cuts in the bill temporary. So whomever is running the country in 5 or 10 years may end up being very unpopular as they have to deal with the problems this tax bill causes.

So, the republicans may be planning on passing their bill, with the hope/expectation that it will cause problems for the Democrats if/when they eventually take control of the presidency and/or congress.
I've heard that the Great Depression was mostly FDR's fault, that 70's inflation was all Carter's fault, and the great recession was all Obama's fault.

So plans to blame the next bubble burst on the dem's doesn't take much in the way of incredulity.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:01 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I've heard that the Great Depression was mostly FDR's fault, that 70's inflation was all Carter's fault, and the great recession was all Obama's fault.

So plans to blame the next bubble burst on the dem's doesn't take much in the way of incredulity.
The difference was, in those cases it was the GOP blaming the democrats for things that had already happened. In this case, it looks like the republicans are setting up the Democrats to fail in the future.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:05 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Does anyone think that this whole scheme may be a cynical ploy by the Republicans to harm the Democrats?

Think about it... the Republicans are saddled with an unpopular president, and with shifting demographics (i.e. higher proportion of minorities) they will eventually start losing seats in congress. They may already be expecting that they will lose the next few elections (both mid-terms and presidential).

The tax cuts will end up driving up the deficit. In addition, there is talk about making some of the tax cuts in the bill temporary. So whomever is running the country in 5 or 10 years may end up being very unpopular as they have to deal with the problems this tax bill causes.

So, the republicans may be planning on passing their bill, with the hope/expectation that it will cause problems for the Democrats if/when they eventually take control of the presidency and/or congress.
Make no mistake, when the democrats take control and try to increase taxes to deal with the deficit, the republicans will bitch. Not taxes will be increased, and the deficit will continue. And then the republicans will bitch about the size of the deficit.

And then when the republicans get in charge, they will cut taxes.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:23 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I've heard that the Great Depression was mostly FDR's fault, that 70's inflation was all Carter's fault, and the great recession was all Obama's fault.

So plans to blame the next bubble burst on the dem's doesn't take much in the way of incredulity.
Rewriting history is a lot easier than learning from it.

So instead of blaming the 2008 financial collapse on the banks, the right wing blames it on banks being forced to lend to brown skinned people who were bad credit risks. Never mind that the loans at the center of the collapse were made by subprime lenders like Countrywide and not Federally chartered banks.

Core GOP voters still believe this **** because that is what the right wing pundits tell them happened. They don't trust the mainstream media or academics because they are just a pack of leftist liars.

ETA: The real question is how do we get out of this mess without burning our nation to the ground in a violent revolution?

Last edited by Kestrel; 1st December 2017 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 1st December 2017, 12:31 PM   #160
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What I love is the explanation that corporate tax cuts have to be permanent so the companies can plan for the future, but middle class taxpayers can just trust that congress will continue their cuts in the future. Okie dokie.
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