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Tags gop , tax cuts

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Old 1st December 2017, 12:43 PM   #161
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What I love is the explanation that corporate tax cuts have to be permanent so the companies can plan for the future, but middle class taxpayers can just trust that congress will continue their cuts in the future. Okie dokie.
I wondered about this.

In our budgeting, we count on things like medical deductions from our taxes. For example, the GOP has been singing the praises of HSAs because it allows you to deduct all your medical expenses. And we do.

But now they want to cut medical deductions? What does that mean for the HSAs that they have been praising all these years?

Oh, never mind....
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Old 1st December 2017, 12:54 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What I love is the explanation that corporate tax cuts have to be permanent so the companies can plan for the future, but middle class taxpayers can just trust that congress will continue their cuts in the future. Okie dokie.
Its not as if the 115th Congress can pass a law that says the 116th Congress can't repeal it. Ergo its not really "permanent".
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Old 1st December 2017, 02:23 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Its not as if the 115th Congress can pass a law that says the 116th Congress can't repeal it. Ergo its not really "permanent".
Of course not, it is an accounting trick. But the assumption that companies need certainty more than people is just outrageous. Companies simply paid more, so they get the more certain position.
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Old 1st December 2017, 02:54 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Basically came to post this.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:08 PM   #166
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Lobbying provides something like a 22,000% return on investment for the really big players. How can anyone in a position to do that possibly not do so and still stay competitive with the ones that do?
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:50 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Lobbying provides something like a 22,000% return on investment for the really big players. How can anyone in a position to do that possibly not do so and still stay competitive with the ones that do?

So does blowing up the production facilities of your largest competitor.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:57 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, first of all, I don't think the article says '90% of X-rays are read in india'... it says 90% of X-rays are read "elsewhere"... some of which may be in india, some may be in other countries, some may be within the same country but in a different state, etc.
And a family practice doc is going to outsource cancer to an oncologist, or an autoimmune disease to a rheumatologist. Radiology is a specialty. It's a meaningless statement that x-rays are read by someone outside of the office. Gawd, I hope so. Radiology and pathology both are very often sent to specialists to read.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
However, outsourcing X-rays to india does happen. If you don't like the source above, fine... here's another source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2747412/
The first teleradiology company in India, Teleradiology Solutions, was set up in 2002 with its base in Bangalore. Dr Arjun Kalyanpur and his colleagues, all US board-certified radiologists, read scans for hospitals in the USA...

The article doesn't give the percentage of scans that are read by Indian doctors, but its obvious it does happen.
I didn't say none of the work was sent to India. I said the 90% figure was fear-mongering and misleading. Now with digitalizing x-rays becoming common, sending images to further distances is going to be more common. I have no problem with "US board-certified radiologists" reading images for US hospitals.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:03 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
ALEC and lobbyists are writing more and more legislation these days. We are a corporatocracy. It snuck up on us and now there's little need to pretend otherwise.


Re my earlier comment McConnell said the anticipation of the tax bill caused the stock market to go up. Now they are claiming Flynn's guilty plea caused it to go down.


The Republicans are of the belief the magical 'we got a bill passed' is more important for 2018 than what is actually in the bill. If the Democrats don't get their act together and use this atrocious 'tax cut for the rich paid for by the middle class' to slam dunk a change in both houses of Congress I will be totally demoralized.

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Old 1st December 2017, 11:04 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
So does blowing up the production facilities of your largest competitor.
One is perfectly legal as long as you do so in plain sight of the public through disclosures.

The other is only legal if said production facilities are in a country easy to scapegoat for something and appropriate lobbying pressure is applied.

ETA: Well, some domestic avenues exist like getting the EPA to declare the facility toxic, order it collapsed, and turn it into a Superfund Site.

Isn't democracy wonderful?

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Old 2nd December 2017, 12:52 AM   #171
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And it has passed. How long will it take before McCain, Collins, Flake, et al. realise they've been hosed? A couple of days at most?

McCain says he was persuaded by the promise that the tax cuts would pay for themselves, but that's a fiction only the hard right appears to believe in. To everyone else, it's almost certain it'll add trillions to the deficit.

Collins says she's been promised legislation that would stabilise the ACA markets, but she hasn't been guaranteed the votes to get such legislation passed.

Flake claimed he had been promised a plan for DACA legislation, but the White House says he's been only been promised to be included in the conversation about potential DACA legislation.

Oh, and what's this about a DeVos connected college recieving a carefully hidden windfall?

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Old 2nd December 2017, 12:57 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
And it has passed. How long will it take before McCain, Corker, Collins, Flake, et al. realise they've been hosed? A couple of days at most?

McCain says he was persuaded by the promise that the tax cuts would pay for themselves, but that's a fiction only the hard right appears to believe in. To everyone else, it's almost certain it'll add trillions to the deficit.

Collins says she's been promised legislation that would stabilise the ACA markets, but she hasn't been guaranteed the votes to get such legislation passed.

Flake claimed he had been promised a plan for DACA legislation, but the White House says he's been only been promised to be included in the conversation about potential DACA legislation.

Oh, and what's this about a DeVos connected college recieving a carefully hidden windfall?
IMO McCain, Collins and Flake only needed a fig leaf of credibility to gain their support - the facts really don't matter. Tax cuts for the very wealthy and "trickle down" no matter how little evidence there is that this is for the good of the country as a whole and not just the top n% (where n is a small number) is GOP dogma and has been for nearly 40 years.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 12:59 AM   #173
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I'll note that Corker voted against the bill, so I've struck him off the list of senators who are about to have some very nasty surprises.

Edit: And the DeVos windfall is apparently out again.

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Old 2nd December 2017, 02:04 AM   #174
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Yup, Corker was the only one who stuck to his guns and voted against. Passed 51:49.

Oh and estimated to add $1tn to your deficit even after the growth it's predicted to generate.

MAGA my arse.

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Old 2nd December 2017, 02:58 AM   #175
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The 2018 campaign began tonight. By passing the most unpopular tax bill ever (including bills that increased taxes), the Republicans are writing the Democratic campaign ads. They have shown who they are and what they are all about, but they've made a huge bet that most voters are too stupid to see it. We'll see about that.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 03:06 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
And it has passed. How long will it take before McCain, Collins, Flake, et al. realise they've been hosed? A couple of days at most?
Any chance this bill can still be killed at the reconciliation stage (When the senate and house versions of the bill have to be merged) or is this automatic?

Not that I would expect republicans to do so, just wondering about procedure.

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Old 2nd December 2017, 03:13 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
The 2018 campaign began tonight. By passing the most unpopular tax bill ever (including bills that increased taxes), the Republicans are writing the Democratic campaign ads. They have shown who they are and what they are all about, but they've made a huge bet that most voters are too stupid to see it. We'll see about that.
I hope that the Democratic Party come up with some positive policies too. Just "Not Trump" and "Not GOP" may seem like a good idea but IMO there's a risk that it won't generate the positive turnout that the Democratic Party needs.

Remember that some states are so comprehensively gerrymandered that the Democratic Party needs a 10%-20% majority to achieve parity in terms of House seats so the Democratic Party need a large and enthusiastic electorate to turn out and vote.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 03:37 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Any chance this bill can still be killed at the reconciliation stage (When the senate and house versions of the bill have to be merged) or is this automatic?

Not that I would expect republicans to do so, just wondering about procedure.

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Yes, there will need to be votes in both houses on the final bill, and we can hope that it won't pass -- most of us, anyway, since most of us are getting screwed in the long run -- but it sure looks like almost all Republicans have drunk the kool-aid. I think the best we can hope for now is that "drunk the kool-aid" is an apt analogy in 2018.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 04:05 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I hope that the Democratic Party come up with some positive policies too. Just "Not Trump" and "Not GOP" may seem like a good idea but IMO there's a risk that it won't generate the positive turnout that the Democratic Party needs.

Remember that some states are so comprehensively gerrymandered that the Democratic Party needs a 10%-20% majority to achieve parity in terms of House seats so the Democratic Party need a large and enthusiastic electorate to turn out and vote.
I believe that's what will happen, because "not GOP" is going to be a strong message -- not to mention "**** Trump" -- and this tax bill is just a small part of it. In some places there's an impossibly steep hill to climb, sure. But gerrymandering typically works by producing small majorities in a larger number of districts while giving the opposition large majorities in a smaller number of districts -- a.k.a. "cracking" and "packing." That means that either a fairly small percentage of flipping among independents and "undecideds" and/or a larger than expected turn-out for Democrats can overcome those small majorities.

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Old 2nd December 2017, 04:11 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I hope that the Democratic Party come up with some positive policies too. Just "Not Trump" and "Not GOP" may seem like a good idea but IMO there's a risk that it won't generate the positive turnout that the Democratic Party needs.

Back in 2008, I saw a woman comment that it was the first time in her life that she had voted for a candidate she wanted, instead of against a candidate she didn't want. They need to come up with people to support, not just people to oppose.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 04:21 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I believe that's what will happen, because "not GOP" is going to be a strong message -- not to mention "**** Trump" -- and this tax bill is just a small part of it. In some places there's an impossibly steep hill to climb, sure. But gerrymandering typically works by producing small majorities in a larger number of districts while giving the opposition large majorities in a smaller number of districts -- a.k.a. "cracking" and "packing." That means that either a fairly small percentage of flipping among independents and "undecideds" and/or a larger than expected turn-out for Democrats can overcome those small majorities.
In the recent elections in Virginia, the Democratic Party had a significant majority in the popular vote (IIRC around 10%) and yet had not ended up with a majority of the seats.

The gerrymandering is proving to be more resilient to a swing in the vote than expected.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 04:31 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Yup, Corker was the only one who stuck to his guns and voted against. Passed 51:49.

Oh and estimated to add $1tn to your deficit even after the growth it's predicted to generate.

MAGA my arse.
I was always terrible at that whole imaginary number thing in math.

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Old 2nd December 2017, 04:46 AM   #183
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Stupid sons of bitches.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 06:02 AM   #184
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The added insult to injury is that voters wonít see the quantitative effects of this bill until after the 2018 election.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 06:26 AM   #185
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Of course that's by design
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Old 2nd December 2017, 06:30 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The added insult to injury is that voters wonít see the quantitative effects of this bill until after the 2018 election.
A strong indicator the sons of bitches arenít stupid.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 06:58 AM   #187
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The Greed Over People party wins again.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 07:29 AM   #188
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GOP attempting some kind of shell game: where is the debt?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/01/politi...nty/index.html
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Old 2nd December 2017, 07:35 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Of course that's by design
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
A strong indicator the sons of bitches aren’t stupid.
I’m not so sure it was necessarily planned. There is no way to pass a tax bill that wouldn’t take effect until after the next election cycle.

ETA: I take that back. You could, but I don’t think there’d be any practical way to implement it.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 07:36 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The added insult to injury is that voters wonít see the quantitative effects of this bill until after the 2018 election.
There are tax hikes that polled better than the Donor Relief Act of 2017. It will be interesting to see if the public maintains that skepticism or if they become complacent and allow the country to follow the path of Louisiana, Oklahoma and Kansas.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 08:54 AM   #191
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Quote:
WASHINGTON — By midafternoon on Friday, Republicans had the votes to pass their tax bill in the Senate. What they did not have was a bill.

The legislation, covering nearly 500 pages, finally surfaced well after the sun had set. It appeared first in the lobbying shops of K Street, which sent back copies to some Democrats in the Senate, who took to social media to protest being asked to vote in a matter of hours on a bill that had yet to be shared with them directly.

The drafts that leaked to journalists included changes scrawled in looping handwriting in the margins. Democrats posted screenshots and accompanying complaints. Senator Jon Tester, Democrat of Montana, called it “Washington D.C. at its worst” in a video in which he held up a page of the bill with the changes.

“This is unbelievable, we’re doing massive tax reform on an absolute incredible timeline,” he said. “This is going to affect everybody in this country.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/01/u...ll-outcry.html

Despite spending more money on being elected and electing politicians than just about every single developed democratic country combined Americans seem to get far worse results than you'd expect if costs were correlated with quality.

Any local municipality board in Sweden would come off as far better than the "worlds greatest deliberative body", despite being many orders of magnitudes cheaper. Absolutely irredeemable and worthless.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 09:11 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/01/u...ll-outcry.html

Despite spending more money on being elected and electing politicians than just about every single developed democratic country combined Americans seem to get far worse results than you'd expect if costs were correlated with quality.

Any local municipality board in Sweden would come off as far better than the "worlds greatest deliberative body", despite being many orders of magnitudes cheaper. Absolutely irredeemable and worthless.
Secondary schools in the UK often have school-wide elections where the pupils stand for the parties that they support as part of citizenship education. They would do better than Congress
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Old 2nd December 2017, 09:16 AM   #193
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A major Republican criticism of Obamacare was that the bill was being amended up to the last minute and they didn't know what they were voting on. Apparently that's par for the course on The Hill.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 09:29 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Prohibit cash or gift cards for employee rewards?
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Old 2nd December 2017, 09:36 AM   #195
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Didn't parliamentary procedure used to call for bills to be read aloud from the podium? Wouldn't you love to see that be required here?
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Old 2nd December 2017, 09:46 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Didn't parliamentary procedure used to call for bills to be read aloud from the podium? Wouldn't you love to see that be required here?
I'd settle for last-minute amendments being required to be submitted by being carved into the flesh of the person proposing them. They'd have to really want that pork.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 01:33 PM   #197
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There are so many bases on which this bill could be challenged in court. There were sections that couldn't even be read made out in pencil!

WHERE ARE THE DEMOCRATS? WHY WONT THEY FIGHT?

There should have been multiple lawsuits filed as soon as the courts opened for the day!
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Old 2nd December 2017, 02:07 PM   #198
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
There are so many bases on which this bill could be challenged in court. There were sections that couldn't even be read made out in pencil!

WHERE ARE THE DEMOCRATS? WHY WONT THEY FIGHT?

There should have been multiple lawsuits filed as soon as the courts opened for the day!
It was passed late on a Friday. Courts won't open until Monday. But don't hold your breath waiting for the lawsuits. Someone is actually going to have to read it first.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 02:19 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It was passed late on a Friday. Courts won't open until Monday. But don't hold your breath waiting for the lawsuits. Someone is actually going to have to read it first.
Fair point. Forgot what day it was.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 02:20 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
There are tax hikes that polled better than the Donor Relief Act of 2017. It will be interesting to see if the public maintains that skepticism or if they become complacent and allow the country to follow the path of Louisiana, Oklahoma and Kansas.
Given how much has already been done by this regime that would have brought down any previous one, I'm guessing the later, unfortunately.
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