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Tags gop , tax cuts

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Old 2nd December 2017, 08:42 PM   #201
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
So much for the "liberal" media...
Right? Only idiots believe the media is mainly run by liberals.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 08:53 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
GOP attempting some kind of shell game: where is the debt?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/01/politi...nty/index.html
It is a shell game, they are no doubt ecstatic behind closed doors because their Trojan Horse is past the gates. Waiting to come out is a mandatory Medicare cut when the deficit is not magically addressed by magical economic growth.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 08:55 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Didn't parliamentary procedure used to call for bills to be read aloud from the podium? Wouldn't you love to see that be required here?
It was called for and failed.
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Old 2nd December 2017, 08:56 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
There are so many bases on which this bill could be challenged in court. There were sections that couldn't even be read made out in pencil!

WHERE ARE THE DEMOCRATS? WHY WONT THEY FIGHT?

There should have been multiple lawsuits filed as soon as the courts opened for the day!
You mean on Saturday?
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Old 2nd December 2017, 09:15 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Any chance this bill can still be killed at the reconciliation stage (When the senate and house versions of the bill have to be merged) or is this automatic?

Not that I would expect republicans to do so, just wondering about procedure.

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The two versions are different and have to go through reconciliation, so that both chambers vote on a single bill. So there are three ways this can go.

-The Senate can vote directly on the version the House passed. Since they decided to make their own version, that is not happening.
-The House can vote directly on the Senate version. This is more likely, but has a good chance of failure. The versions are quite different, and the the elimination of SALT deductions alone might be enough to sink it in the House.
-The House and Senate come together and hammer out a single bill. This will be a mess, as while they are agreed on the overall goal (take money from the poor and middle class and give it to the rich), there are a bunch of things they disagree on. The SALT deductions are a perfect example.

In the Senate, most states either have two Democratic or two Republican Senators, and the Democratic Senators tend to come from states with high state and local taxes. So in the Senate, the red state Republicans can get a lot of the money to pay for the tax cuts for the rich by hosing blue State Democrats by eliminating that deduction. So far so good. But in the congress, most blue states have some Republican reps, so their voters get hosed by that plan.

The Republicans have a good sized majority in the House, and can lose a few of them on the vote, but the majority is not that big. I think that if they lose something like 23 or 24 votes, its toast. California is a blue state with high taxes that will get hit hard by eliminating the SALT exemption, and they have over a dozen Republican congressmen alone.

Its not that hard to imagine the House and Senate not being able to come to some kind of deal on the fine details. This is a hideously unpopular bill, and all the guys in the House will be up for reelection next year, so they need a lot of cover relatively speaking. The Senate Repubs are more secure in general as few of the are up for reelection, but their majority there is much smaller, and they can only afford to lose one or two votes there.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 06:25 AM   #206
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6000 lobbyists wrote the bill
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbyi...have-worked-on
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Old 3rd December 2017, 07:04 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
The two versions are different and have to go through reconciliation, so that both chambers vote on a single bill. So there are three ways this can go.

-The Senate can vote directly on the version the House passed. Since they decided to make their own version, that is not happening.
-The House can vote directly on the Senate version. This is more likely, but has a good chance of failure. The versions are quite different, and the the elimination of SALT deductions alone might be enough to sink it in the House.
-The House and Senate come together and hammer out a single bill. This will be a mess, as while they are agreed on the overall goal (take money from the poor and middle class and give it to the rich), there are a bunch of things they disagree on. The SALT deductions are a perfect example.

In the Senate, most states either have two Democratic or two Republican Senators, and the Democratic Senators tend to come from states with high state and local taxes. So in the Senate, the red state Republicans can get a lot of the money to pay for the tax cuts for the rich by hosing blue State Democrats by eliminating that deduction. So far so good. But in the congress, most blue states have some Republican reps, so their voters get hosed by that plan.

The Republicans have a good sized majority in the House, and can lose a few of them on the vote, but the majority is not that big. I think that if they lose something like 23 or 24 votes, its toast. California is a blue state with high taxes that will get hit hard by eliminating the SALT exemption, and they have over a dozen Republican congressmen alone.

Its not that hard to imagine the House and Senate not being able to come to some kind of deal on the fine details. This is a hideously unpopular bill, and all the guys in the House will be up for reelection next year, so they need a lot of cover relatively speaking. The Senate Repubs are more secure in general as few of the are up for reelection, but their majority there is much smaller, and they can only afford to lose one or two votes there.
Thanks for that, very interesting.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 07:05 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
There should be a limit of 666.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 08:20 AM   #209
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I agree with Paul Krugman 110%:

Republicans’ Tax Lies Show the Rot Spreads Wide and Runs Deep

Originally Posted by Paul Krugman
On Thursday morning, The New York Times revealed that Steven Mnuchin, the Treasury secretary, has been lying for months about Republican tax plans. Mnuchin has repeatedly claimed the existence of a Treasury report that — unlike every independent, nonpartisan assessment — found that these plans would pay for themselves, increasing growth and hence revenues so much that the deficit wouldn’t rise. But there is no such report, and never has been; Treasury staffers weren’t even asked to study the issue.
...

In other words, this whole process involves a level of bad faith we haven’t seen in U.S. politics since the days when defenders of slavery physically assaulted their political foes on the Senate floor.

There are two further things worth pointing out about this moral rot.

First, it is not, at a fundamental level, a story about Donald Trump, bad as he is: The rot pervades the whole Republican Party. Some details of the legislation do look custom-designed to benefit the Trump family, but both the broad outlines and the fraudulence of the sales effort would have been pretty much the same under any Republican president.

Second, the rot is wide as well as deep.

I’m not just talking about Republican politicians, although the tax debate should dispel any remaining illusions about their motives: Just about every G.O.P. member of Congress, including the sainted John McCain, is willing to put partisan loyalty above principle, voting for what they have to know is terrible and irresponsible legislation. The point, however, is that the epidemic of bad faith extends well beyond elected or appointed officials.

This despicable (and economically stupid) piece of legislation was rushed to passage behind a wall of lies, before anyone could really know what's in it, but what we know is more than bad enough. If you're a life-long Republican, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee: Today's Republican party is rotten to the core, and it must be destroyed in the next two election cycles. If that makes you sad, well, there's a 99.5% chance that there's nothing there for you, anyway.

If you think the party is worth saving, then you'd better get cracking finding some candidates with integrity to replace what you have now.

On the other hand, if you think everything's just fine, then your opinions about liberals -- or anything else, really -- mean absolutely nothing to me.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 3rd December 2017 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 08:29 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I hope that the Democratic Party come up with some positive policies too. Just "Not Trump" and "Not GOP" may seem like a good idea but IMO there's a risk that it won't generate the positive turnout that the Democratic Party needs.
"Not Hillary" worked fine in 2016.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 02:09 PM   #211
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From badscience:

Originally Posted by woodchopper1
GOP’s List Of Economists Backing Tax Cut Includes Ghosts, Office Assistants, Ex-Felons, And A Sprinkling Of Real Economists

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/01/...al-economists/
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Old 3rd December 2017, 02:11 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
From badscience:
Merchants of Doubt, the game plan is consistent.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 03:27 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
"Not Hillary" worked fine in 2016.
Shamelessly appealing to the low-IQ bigot crowd was a lot more than just being "Not Hillary." And while we'll never know one way or the other, I'm really not sure Candidate Generic Republican could have beat her.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 03:30 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Right? Only idiots believe the media is mainly run by liberals.
IMO it leans liberal, but part of that is because reporting on reality tends to blunt the allure of conservative ideology.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 04:49 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
From badscience:
"Ghosts" implies some are deceased. The article doesn't say that. Still slimy, of course. You get that way in the swamp.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 07:24 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
IMO it leans liberal, but part of that is because reporting on reality tends to blunt the allure of conservative ideology.
Kind of.. but only because conservatism took a hard right since Fox News came onto the scene. The media still does little to challenge the lies told by the GOP. The media ignores many issues, particularly on corporations because they are owned by corporations. They keep pushing the idiotic idea that "both sides are the same" as well.

What saddens me about this tax bill, if it passes, is that it might get more people to vote for the GOP for the 2020 elections. Notice that most people get a sizable cut in 2019. They are banking on the fact that most Americans like instant gratification. They won't care about the fact that their tax burden increases over the next decade or that many social safety nets are practically hamstrung. The GOP loves the uneducated voter.
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Old 3rd December 2017, 10:57 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Kind of.. but only because conservatism took a hard right since Fox News came onto the scene. ...
I'd put it slightly before that: It was when Rush Limbaugh came on the scene, which set the stage for Fox News. Limbaugh used a mix of facts, half-truths, exaggerations, and lies to give his audience the impression they were getting the "real story" that the liberal media wasn't telling them. He wasn't the first to take up the right-wing campaign to discredit the mainstream news media, but he was the most effective. He exploited the broad reactionary streak in American politics by perfecting the game of demonizing individual liberals because they held to the demon philosophy of liberalism, and demonizing liberalism because it was advanced by the demon liberals. My definition of a "ditto head" is someone too dim to catch on to that game. It was effective, but at a price: the "conservative movement" was subsumed by a reactionary movement devoid of such niceties as intellectual honesty and integrity.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:26 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I'd put it slightly before that: It was when Rush Limbaugh came on the scene, which set the stage for Fox News. Limbaugh used a mix of facts, half-truths, exaggerations, and lies to give his audience the impression they were getting the "real story" that the liberal media wasn't telling them. He wasn't the first to take up the right-wing campaign to discredit the mainstream news media, but he was the most effective. He exploited the broad reactionary streak in American politics by perfecting the game of demonizing individual liberals because they held to the demon philosophy of liberalism, and demonizing liberalism because it was advanced by the demon liberals. My definition of a "ditto head" is someone too dim to catch on to that game. It was effective, but at a price: the "conservative movement" was subsumed by a reactionary movement devoid of such niceties as intellectual honesty and integrity.
Before Fox, a lot (most? almost all?) of the conservatives who listened to Rush knew on some level that he was lying and exaggerating a lot. The "Rush is right" stickers were an in-joke for that reason. Fox changed the game on a much deeper level, because now conservatives could bail out of regular news completely, and often did, and utterly lost all touch with reality over the years as a result.
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:41 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Before Fox, a lot (most? almost all?) of the conservatives who listened to Rush knew on some level that he was lying and exaggerating a lot. The "Rush is right" stickers were an in-joke for that reason. Fox changed the game on a much deeper level, because now conservatives could bail out of regular news completely, and often did, and utterly lost all touch with reality over the years as a result.
By the time Fox News came along, Limbaugh was already considered to be the unofficial head and spiritual leader of the Republican Party because Newt Gingrich and the GOP owners recognized the political value of his anti-liberal, anti-Clinton demagoguery.
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:56 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
By the time Fox News came along, Limbaugh was already considered to be the unofficial head and spiritual leader of the Republican Party because Newt Gingrich and the GOP owners recognized the political value of his anti-liberal, anti-Clinton demagoguery.
I completely disagree, but there's no way for either of us to prove it either way, so I guess it's pointless to argue about. But I don't think he was ever considered the spiritual leader/unofficial head of the party till Trump started soaring in the polls and the establishment was unable to stop it.
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Old 4th December 2017, 02:40 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I completely disagree, but there's no way for either of us to prove it either way, so I guess it's pointless to argue about. But I don't think he was ever considered the spiritual leader/unofficial head of the party till Trump started soaring in the polls and the establishment was unable to stop it.
Fox News was started in 1996. After the 1992 election, Saint Reagan himself called Limbaugh the country's "number one voice of conservatism." After the 1994 mid-terms in which Gingrich and the Republicans took control of Congress, the Washington Post reported: RUSH LIMBAUGH SALUTED AS A 'MAJORITY MAKER'. You're welcome to your opinions, but I'll stand by my belief that the Gingrich Revolution was when GOP took a major rightward, reactionary turn.
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:34 AM   #222
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Remember when Republicans used to complain about "rushed" legislation.

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Old 4th December 2017, 09:26 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stancol.../#774a835f77ef


Of course, most of the Republican Congressmen are not actually insane; they know full well who this bill helps -- their donors, who will see fantastic returns on their investment -- and they simply don't care who it hurts. But they know we do care, so they are simply lying through their teeth about what the bill does -- lying so blatant and so destructive to honest debate that I can't think of any real precedent in my 5 decades of watching Congressional maneuvering. It surpasses the previous record so recently set by their lies about Obamacare "repeal and replace," but only by a little.

How can any intellectually honest Republican not be ashamed of these bait-and-switch con jobs?

2018 needs to be the year that this version of the GOP dies an ignoble death, and good riddance.
This. ^^^

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Old 4th December 2017, 04:39 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
By the time Fox News came along, Limbaugh was already considered to be the unofficial head and spiritual leader of the Republican Party because Newt Gingrich and the GOP owners recognized the political value of his anti-liberal, anti-Clinton demagoguery.
I think the influence of Karl Rove should be taken account of. The failure of Bush Sr and the old-boy style of politics left the field open for him and his total-war style.
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:41 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
IMO it leans liberal, but part of that is because reporting on reality tends to blunt the allure of conservative ideology.
And literacy is a liberal trait.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:08 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
The two versions are different and have to go through reconciliation, so that both chambers vote on a single bill.
...
This is a hideously unpopular bill, and all the guys in the House will be up for reelection next year, so they need a lot of cover relatively speaking. The Senate Repubs are more secure in general as few of the are up for reelection, but their majority there is much smaller, and they can only afford to lose one or two votes there.
Hmmm.... how long does it normally take to reconcile bills like that? After all, we have the Alabama senate election coming up; if the Dems should happen to beat Moore, and the bill hasn't gone to vote yet, it makes the Senate vote just a tiny bit closer. Assuming Corker stays opposed to the bill, it would mean just one more republican would have to flip.
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Old 4th December 2017, 05:35 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
... They won't care about the fact that their tax burden increases over the next decade or that many social safety nets are practically hamstrung. ...
I'm not so sure about this. Yes, a certain segment of the electorate won't care. I just don't think that's all of the electorate.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:11 AM   #228
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Oops...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ll-s-bombshell
Under current law, the corporate AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax) serves as a kind of insurance policy designed to prevent companies from using various breaks to pay too little tax. But because the Senate bill would also cut the regular corporate income tax rate to the same 20 percent level, the AMT would hit virtually every U.S. company, according to experts. ...As a consequence, planned tax breaks in the Senate bill related to intellectual property and to spending on new equipment -- along with the existing research and development tax credit -- would lose their effect. Technology firms and utilities might be hardest hit by retaining a 20 percent AMT in the tax legislation -- factors that appeared to weigh on the stock market Monday. The Standard and Poor’s 500 Index fell 0.1 percent.

So, the Senate rushes a bill through, with very little debate, and with the actual text of the bill involving hand-written (and often illegible) notes in the margins, and they end up with some rather significant problems.

Who would have thunk it?
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:23 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Oops...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ll-s-bombshell
Under current law, the corporate AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax) serves as a kind of insurance policy designed to prevent companies from using various breaks to pay too little tax. But because the Senate bill would also cut the regular corporate income tax rate to the same 20 percent level, the AMT would hit virtually every U.S. company, according to experts. ...As a consequence, planned tax breaks in the Senate bill related to intellectual property and to spending on new equipment -- along with the existing research and development tax credit -- would lose their effect. Technology firms and utilities might be hardest hit by retaining a 20 percent AMT in the tax legislation -- factors that appeared to weigh on the stock market Monday. The Standard and Poor’s 500 Index fell 0.1 percent.

So, the Senate rushes a bill through, with very little debate, and with the actual text of the bill involving hand-written (and often illegible) notes in the margins, and they end up with some rather significant problems.

Who would have thunk it?
It might actually be bigger than that:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...eductions.html

Quote:
This is a big problem. The Senate bill brings the normal corporate rate down to 20 percent — while leaving the alternative minimum rate at … 20 percent. The legislation would still allow corporations to claim a wide variety of tax credits and deductions — it just renders all them completely worthless. Companies can either take no deductions, and pay a 20 percent rate — or take lots of deductions … and pay a 20 percent rate.

With this blunder, Senate Republicans have achieved the unthinkable: They’ve written a giant corporate tax cut that many of their corporate donors do not like. As The Wall Street Journal reports:
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Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:32 PM   #230
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OK, let's sum op this latest flap up.

Corporate tax rate is dropped to 20%.

There is supposed to be a goal of simplifying the tax code, getting rid of any number of write-offs in exchange for a cleaner code with a lower rate.

Turns out with the Alternative Minimum tax, those deductions were limited to leave a 20% tax rate floor.

Corporations wanted their cake and to eat it too, lower the rate to 20% plus allow all those same deductions.

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Old 6th December 2017, 08:46 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post

"The report found that 20 corporations and trade associations have each hired at least 50 lobbyists to work on taxes, both through their in-house team and outside firms. Among them are two highly influential business groups: the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which has 100 lobbyists working on taxes, and the Business Roundtable, which has 51."


How is this democracy?
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Old 6th December 2017, 08:52 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
"The report found that 20 corporations and trade associations have each hired at least 50 lobbyists to work on taxes, both through their in-house team and outside firms. Among them are two highly influential business groups: the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which has 100 lobbyists working on taxes, and the Business Roundtable, which has 51."


How is this democracy?
As was pointed out by someone, either in this thread or a similar one, it's small government democracy.

All the aides and "Sir Bernards" who would have previously drafted such legislation have been let go in the cause of cost saving. The corporations have stepped into the breach and provided lobbyists to plug the gap and to enable legislation to be drafted - it's hardly their fault if the lobbyists happen to have a particular point of view....
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:04 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As was pointed out by someone, either in this thread or a similar one, it's small government democracy.

All the aides and "Sir Bernards" who would have previously drafted such legislation have been let go in the cause of cost saving. The corporations have stepped into the breach and provided lobbyists to plug the gap and to enable legislation to be drafted - it's hardly their fault if the lobbyists happen to have a particular point of view....


So, er, in fact not at all democracy.

What worries me is it's so blatant, so utterly utterly blatant that the famous, and rightly lauded US democratic system has been so undone from within that it's now a shell democracy and, and this is the bit that gets me, there's no outcry.


Our system here in the UK is not long behind at all.


It makes me sad.
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:08 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It makes me sad.
I agree, me too
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:24 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As was pointed out by someone, either in this thread or a similar one, it's small government democracy.

All the aides and "Sir Bernards" who would have previously drafted such legislation have been let go in the cause of cost saving. The corporations have stepped into the breach and provided lobbyists to plug the gap and to enable legislation to be drafted - it's hardly their fault if the lobbyists happen to have a particular point of view....
You may be right in the fact that the lobbyists are not necessarily at fault for representing certain interests.

However, we can blame the republicans when they allow those lobbyists to provide input into legislation with little or no oversight.
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:27 AM   #236
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It's almost like the GOP lives in it's own reality. An Alt Reality one might say.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-cor...ord-low-taxes/
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:32 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OK, let's sum op this latest flap up.

Corporate tax rate is dropped to 20%.

There is supposed to be a goal of simplifying the tax code, getting rid of any number of write-offs in exchange for a cleaner code with a lower rate.
I thought the "cleaner tax code" goal was only supposed to apply to individual income tax, not corporate taxes.
Quote:
Turns out with the Alternative Minimum tax, those deductions were limited to leave a 20% tax rate floor.

Corporations wanted their cake and to eat it too, lower the rate to 20% plus allow all those same deductions.
Yup.

Thing is, there may be a benefit to allowing deductions... for example, allowing write-offs for capital expenses might cause a company to buy equipment (thus providing spin-off jobs in the economy). If the tax rate and the alternative minimal tax are the same, and a company can't benefit from deducting capital costs, then they will have less incentive to buy new equipment and will make due with the old stuff. This will reduce at least some of the supposed economic benefit of the tax cut.
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:55 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Well, one thing's for certain! (my side) is with the angels, and (the other side) are congenital thieves and layabouts.
And I'm a centrist, so I'm smarter than everyone.
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:21 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Thing is, there may be a benefit to allowing deductions... for example, allowing write-offs for capital expenses might cause a company to buy equipment (thus providing spin-off jobs in the economy). If the tax rate and the alternative minimal tax are the same, and a company can't benefit from deducting capital costs, then they will have less incentive to buy new equipment and will make due with the old stuff. This will reduce at least some of the supposed economic benefit of the tax cut.
Are there write-offs in the US for capital investment? When the UK first embraced the Chicago School under Thatcher those allowances were removed as an interference with free market capitalism, which left to itself would make the best use of capital.

The result was, of course, a collapse in capital investment and a roaring take-off in senior executives' incomes.
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:28 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Are there write-offs in the US for capital investment?
I think so (that seemed to be one of the points brought up in the referenced articles.). But then, I'm Canadian, so if it doesn't involve hockey or maple syrup I can't say for sure.
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