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Old 20th December 2017, 04:07 PM   #361
ddt
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are denying that the Holocaust was about Jews (plus Roma and homosexuals) and want it to include all civilians who died under the Third Reich. To claim that the Holocaust was about virtually everybody is a gross revision of history and willfully ignoring Hitler's great obsession (clue: read a few chapter of Mein Kampf).

Lucky you to have your back covered.
Stop lying. Your claim was about all the victims of the Nazi regime, not just the Holocaust-in-a-strict-sense. Mein Kampf, for a change, is a book I believe you to have read.
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Old 20th December 2017, 04:42 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Stop lying. Your claim was about all the victims of the Nazi regime, not just the Holocaust-in-a-strict-sense. Mein Kampf, for a change, is a book I believe you to have read.
Oh dear. Pluck a figure out of the air and anyone who expects a better standard of accuracy becomes a 'Holocaust denier'.

Very reasonable, I am sure. I have read Das Kapital. What does that prove, in the world of ddt logic?
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Old 20th December 2017, 04:43 PM   #363
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI Six million is the officially verified figure (as recorded by documents).
That is the number of Jewish victims.

Jews accounted for only about nine million European people before the Holocaust. Other populations e.g. Poles and Russians were much more numerous. There were more of them to kill.

This source, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article...uleId=10008193 shows six million Jews and about 11 million others. Read it. Do you reject these figures? Stop pretending you haven't seen them or that you don't know about them. Are you saying that Hitler killed only Jews, or that fewer than six million Jews were killed?
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Old 20th December 2017, 05:23 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That is the number of Jewish victims.

Jews accounted for only about nine million European people before the Holocaust. Other populations e.g. Poles and Russians were much more numerous. There were more of them to kill.

This source, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article...uleId=10008193 shows six million Jews and about 11 million others. Read it. Do you reject these figures? Stop pretending you haven't seen them or that you don't know about them. Are you saying that Hitler killed only Jews, or that fewer than six million Jews were killed?
I get that there were many many killed besides the Jews. No, I don't reject those figures.

However, Yad Vashem's home page says:

Quote:
The Holocaust was the murder by Nazi Germany of six million Jews. While the Nazi persecution of the Jews began in 1933, the mass murder was committed during World War II. It took the Germans and their accomplices four and a half years to murder six million Jews. They were at their most efficient from April to November 1942 – 250 days in which they murdered some two and a half million Jews. They never showed any restraint, they slowed down only when they began to run out of Jews to kill, and they only stopped when the Allies defeated them.
https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about.html


That is not to deny the horrific murder of other ethnic groups or nationalities.

To call me a 'Holocaust denier' for quoting Vad Yashem's own statistics shows how shabby some of the claims on this thread are.
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Last edited by Vixen; 20th December 2017 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 20th December 2017, 11:06 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
Why compare two bastards?
Ask Vixen, it was her who initially brought up the comparison. The rest of us are just upset that in making the comparison she has been whitewashing the Nazis' crimes.

It doesn't bother you that she is denying the murder of millions of people?
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Old 20th December 2017, 11:08 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's your straw man.
No, it's not a straw man. You claim that only 6 million were murdered. Evidence has been presented that 11-15 million were murdered (depending on which groups we include), and when presented with those numbers you have denied their accuracy. Thus, you deny the murder of 5-9 million people.

If I'm wrong feel free to tell us again how many people you think were murdered by the Nazis.
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Old 20th December 2017, 11:20 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI the figure of 'six million' includes Roma and homosexuals.
So how many Jews do you think were killed then?

Wikipedia tells me 5.93 million. 6 million is correct if we are using one significant digit.

Do you dispute the fact that 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust?
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:27 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK, so I take it you are Welsh. Imagine if tomorrow Wales gained independence from the UK. One of the first things that would happen would be 'Welsh pride', restoring the Welsh language as the main one, protecting your borders, etc. etc. But imagine if England decided to reduce its borders to reclaim Abergavenny and North Wales.

A bunch of Irish rebels are currently fighting for Irish independence, say, and they offer to help push back the border if only Wales will let use its port and roads to attack the English.

Would you really get on your high horse and say, 'Frightfully sorry, that's reprehensible. We'll just let the UK take back the whole of Wales and reinstate English and English law'.

Maybe you might, but I know a couple of Welshman who would be willing to fight for their land (well over a pub table, anyway).

IMV every single one of those Finns (apart from the war criminals and Nazi collaborators) are heroes.
Could you be any wronger ? Not even slightly Welsh.

I get it that the Finnish creation myth has with it a number of key chapters including the loss of lands and then a brave fight for existence against a much stronger power to try and reclaim those lost lands resulting in the current borders - so far so good.

What the Finnish creation myth glosses over is that during that fight for the (allegedly) lost lands, you were allied with the frigging Nazis.

Your attempts to introduce a Hitler vs. Stalin body count and then to reduce the Nazi number and increase the Stalin number both by ridiculous margins seems to be part of some attempt to show that the Soviet Union was far worse than the Nazis and so the Finns were right to be allied with the latter against the former.
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:07 AM   #369
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I get that there were many many killed besides the Jews. No, I don't reject those figures.

However, Yad Vashem's home page says:

https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about.html


That is not to deny the horrific murder of other ethnic groups or nationalities.

To call me a 'Holocaust denier' for quoting Vad Yashem's own statistics shows how shabby some of the claims on this thread are.
To claim that Hitler's crimes consisted only of six million victims is shabby in the extreme. And you have been doing just that, hiding behind different definitions of the term Holocaust, and for example explicitly claiming that Roma and other victims were included in that figure. The number of six million refers to Jewish victims of the Nazis, who were very probably the largest single group, but not the whole, and perhaps not the majority, of the victims of Nazi genocide and atrocity.
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Old 21st December 2017, 05:15 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, the Don, like Snyder, is trying to rewrite history, by including Finland in the same breath as fascist Germany, Romania, and Italy, using the phrase the aim was to exterminate Jews, when Finland never at any point adopted that view.
If you can find me using that phrase in this thread w.r.t. Finland or the Finns, I'll give you a cookie.

Heck, if you can find me saying that Finland was Fascist then I'll give you a cookie.

So far all I have said is that the Finns were allied with the Nazis and were involved in the Siege of Leningrad - two things you seem determined to deny.
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:20 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I get that there were many many killed besides the Jews. No, I don't reject those figures.

However, Yad Vashem's home page says:

https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about.html


That is not to deny the horrific murder of other ethnic groups or nationalities.

To call me a 'Holocaust denier' for quoting Vad Yashem's own statistics shows how shabby some of the claims on this thread are.
You don't get off the hook with this dishonest, self-serving, lying post.

First, you never quoted Yad Vashem (you can't even spell that right? ). Others did.

Second, this "numbers game" was not just about Jews; it was about all the victims of the Nazi regime. You started that game and you claimed six million victims of the Nazis in total.

Third, other posters, such as TubbaBubba, Craig_B and me, have repeatedly asked you about the non-Jewish victims of the Nazis. You've repeatedly ignored that and insisted on "six million", i.e., the Jewish victims of the Nazis only. So yes, you have repeatedly denied the existence of other victims of the Nazis.

Fourth, the term Holocaust, in a wider sense, is applied to the mass-murder of all those victims - not just the Jewish ones - and therefore, the term "Holocaust denier" fits.

Fifth, if anyone has been making shabby claims it's you and only you. However, I would not use the term "shabby" or even "shabby in the extreme" as Craig has done; I would call this willful lying. And it's extremely dishonest of you to intimate that others may have been making shabby claims.

As proof of those claims, see the (fragments of) posts in this thread, chronologically, as quoted at the end of this post.

I invite you to acknowledge that you, and you alone, have been far too low numbers of Nazi murders, and that you thereby have been denying the Nazi murders of Poles, Russians, Roma&Sinti, gays, disabled, etc. I invite you to formally retract your previous claims, I invite you to own up that you made false claims in those posts, I invite you to concede that, based on those posts, people were right to call you a "Holocaust denier" and a "Nazi apologist" and I invite you to profusely apologize for your behaviour.

As long as you don't do that, the contents of those posts still stand and you're still a Holocaust denier and Nazi apologist.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, we get to hear poor poor Russia's side and it swamps wikipedia, yet Stalin murdered twice as many of its own citizens as Germany.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
But that still doesn't surpass the extent of the Holocaust-in-wider-sense, i.e., including gays, Roma&Sinti, Slavs and other "Untermenschen". That was about 11 million. And that's the difference between Hitler and Stalin: Hitler went on a conquering spree to occupy all of Europe and drag people from all those conquered countries to his extermination camps.

You mean, like in the other thread where you insisted ad nauseam that the Holocaust was all legal and dandy? It's almost as if you want to say that poor Hitler should have been able to finish his job.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, I disagree.
<snip>

If you only count deliberately targeted civilians for Hitler, you still end up with more than 6 million - closer to 11 or 12 million, counting homosexuals, Poles, other Slavs, et cetera. If you include broader war crimes resulting in mass death, well, the number just shoots away. Even if you counterfactually take Stalin to be directly responsible for pretty much everything that occurred while he was General Secretary you're not getting north of maybe 7 million.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I have a problem with the figure for the Germans' killings. The number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was about six million. Are you then stating that no other people were killed at all? That seems impossible in view of German atrocities in the occupied territories, especially Poland and the western regions of the then USSR.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You have said that Hitler was responsible for a total of six million murders. But in the Holocaust he murdered six million Jews. Are you saying he murdered no other people?

So then you say he murdered six million innocent civilians in total. Are you then stating that many of the Jewish Holocaust victims were not innocent civilians? How many, and what were they?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
TBH I am not sure the numbers game is particularly relevant. Historians generally agree that Russian casualties outnumbered Hitler's ones (excluding fallen soliders).

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
We will be more able to judge when you tell us how many people the lunatic from Austria caused to be murdered. If it was a total of six million, and if he murdered six million Jews, were there no other victims than the Jews murdered in the Holocaust? Or are you saying that fewer than six million Jews were murdered? Or are you saying that not all the Jews were "innocent civilians"? It's not clear what your position on Hitler's crimes in fact is, or how many crimes you attribute to him.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So you keep insisting that the only "innocent civilians" that were murdered by the Nazis were approx. 6 million Jews?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's my understanding that Stalin murdered more than twice as many as Nazi Germany.

You vehemently disagree, but you haven't provided any figures or citation.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're the one who started the numbers game. You claim that the Nazis murdered 6 million "innocent civilians". Care to elaborate?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK so when I said Stalin killed more than twice as many as the Germans. ddt picked up on that I dropped a comma, or forgot to cross a t, to score a point that I used the phrase 'own citizens' (it could be argued that as Germany was occupying these countries, they were its own citizens, just as Stalin's victims were probably largely non-Russians).

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am just quoting the populist figure cited for the number killed in German-run concentration camps, or destroyed by the stormtrooper units.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And which groups would that be? The number of 6 million is the same as the 6 million Jews that were mass-murdered by the Nazis.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And which groups did they target? First I'd like a complete answer to my questions.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you work that out, when I am merely citing the accepted establishment view?
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
And, of course, you still haven't provided figures. So let me remind you: even if we put famine deaths on Stalin, your assertion that he killed "twice as many" is still wrong, and I understand now, an attempt to exonerate Hitler.
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
What is this "accepted establishment view" and WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR IT?
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
To assess that, you need to know how many people were killed by the Germans and by the USSR.

You say six million victims of Nazi atrocity. I say fifteen millions, including six million Jews, plus many others. We don't agree within a factor of two and a half times! What is the value of your opinion about who killed most in that case? What figure do you now propose, and what is its source?

This is from the right wing (not pro-communist) UK newspaper, the Daily Telegraph. I'm going with the lowest figure in their range of estimates published by Washington Holocaust Museum (not a communist source)
The new figures of 15 to 20 million, which have astonished some Holocaust historians, come after thirteen years of painstaking study at Washington's Holocaust Memorial Museum. Historians at the museum brought together and studied the huge amount, and often disparate, files and research on the Holocaust.
ETA The US Holocaust Museum list of victims by category may be seen here.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
First, provide references that support this is the "establishment view".

Second, we're asking for your opinion. Three concrete questions:
(1) do you still maintain that the Nazis only murdered 6 million people?
(2) how many of those were Jews?
(3) what other categories of people did they murder?
And no long diatribes, just three one-sentence answers to those questions.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The figure usually quoted is 'six million Jews', and that is all I was referring to.

I see no point in hyperbole. Let's state the correct figures.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am stating popular currency.

You want me to go round saying '15 million Jews were killed'.

Why is it important to you that it should be 15 million instead of the 'six million' usually quoted?
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Not 15 million Jews. Stop lying about what we are saying. 6 million Jews, and about 9 million others.

YOU are the one who is insisting that it's important that "Stalin killed twice as many". YOU were the one who started this. This has been REPEATEDLY shown to be false, it has been shown that you are astoundingly ignorant about Nazi war crimes, and even more so about Soviet ones.

If the "numbers game" isn't important to you, then how about you stop lying, and concede that you were wrong and ignorant? If it's "popular currency" and not something you actually think you know, then how about a graceful concession and an apology for your obstinate dishonesty?
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, I don't want you to claim 15 million Jews were killed. I want you to give a fair assessment of all the mass-murders the Nazis committed. And that's not just the Jews, and I've made that very clear by repeatedly asking which groups you include in your figure.

And with these answers, you make it very clear you only consider the Jewish victims of the Nazi terror.

You deny the Nazis also murdered, e.g., 3 million non-Jewish Poles.
You deny the Nazis also systematically murdered disabled people.
You deny the Nazis also systematically murdered Romani and Sinti. Remember the picture of the girl I posted before? That's Settela Steinbach, a Dutch Sinti girl who was captured on camera just as "her" train was leaving Westerbork for Auschwitz.

And I could go on. That is all also part of the Holocaust (in wider sense).

That makes you a Holocaust denier and a Nazi apologist.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What a poor quality shabby argument. Because I shan't be bullied into agreeing 'Stalin killed fewer people than the Nazis' that equates in your mind to 'Holocaust denier'.
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
LOL. Refusing to accept your made-up Nazi apologia and providing scholarship is "bullying"?
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Nobody's bullying you. Just asking to show your work. Apparently, you keep denying all those victims from other groups the Nazis targeted.

That makes you unequivocally a Nazi apologist and a Hitler hugger.
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
No where in the post you are replying to here was any mention made of Stalin.

What was addressed was your unwillingness to admit that there were non-Jewish victims of the holocaust. You have persisted in that denial. You continue to claim that there were only 6 million killed, which indeed ignores the 9 million non-Jewish victims.

Someone who denies 9 million victims of the holocaust is indeed best termed a holocaust denier.

This fact has nothing to do with your claims about the number of people murdered by Stalin.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Factual citation of this 'nine million non-Jews' and 'six million Jews' killed by the Third Reich regime?

Of which, according to ddt 'only' 250K Jews were murdered in Germany.
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You mean apart from the citation you were already given by TubbaBlubba:




Those are similar numbers to those listed in this wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

Do you have any reason to dispute those numbers? Do you have a cite to offer that supports your total of 6 million killed?
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Snyder says, and his view is consistent with that of the US Holocaust Museum, that Hitler killed six million Jews and eleven million non Jews. Do you accept these figures or not? That's twice you've been given them, and they are, as you admit, the fruit of "much research"

<snip>

Now tell us plainly. You have been given good grounds for accepting a figure of 15 to 20 million Holocaust victims, including 6 million Jews. Do you accept this? You have been given the sources. Or do you reject this figure? Express yourself plainly please, when you respond.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Craig B you make some decent points. However, the definition of Holocaust denial is as follows:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

I have consistently stated the Holocaust figure to be six million, as according to the establishment view.

To try to claim the Holocaust was 15 million is irresponsible and inaccurate IMV.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The six million refers to the number of Jewish victims. But that is not the total extent of Hitler's crimes. He killed many more millions, particularly Roma, Sinti and Slavs. The US Holocaust Museum assesses the total at 15 to 20 millions altogether, of whom six million were Jews. By saying Hitler killed six million people in total, you are minimising the extent of his crimes by a factor of two and a half times. What is there about these figures that you don't understand? Are you unaware that Hitler committed crimes against the population of occupied areas in general, most of whom were Slavs? That millions of people were taken as forced labourers to his industrial centres, where many died? That innumerable hostages were taken and killed in reprisals? That while his greatest hostility was directed against Jews, these were not his only victims. That this has been studied by the US Holocaust Museum, and they have produced figures? Do you not accept these? If not, why not? The "establishment" says six million Jews were murdered and that figure is correct, as far as can be determined. But he killed others in the lands his armies occupied.
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Why on Earth is it so important for you to deny that the Nazis slaughtered millions of non-Jews?
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Old 21st December 2017, 08:35 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about.html

To call me a 'Holocaust denier' for quoting Vad Yashem's own statistics shows how shabby some of the claims on this thread are.
Now that you apparently cite Yad Vashem (but cannot spell the name) as an authority, here's another page of them:
Quote:
By September 1939, when World War II began, only about half of the 500,000 Jews who had lived in Germany in 1933 remained there.
You're allegedly an accountant, so you can make out what half of 500,000 is. And you can also make out what fraction that is of six million.

I invite you to also apologize for these two posts, which were meant to intimate that I was lying. And I really, really, really resent being called a Nazi apologist when I'm only putting out established facts.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please do not ascribe base motives to me or put words in my mouth. You keep claiming that Hitler's victims were mostly outside of Germany. You are the apologists.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Factual citation of this 'nine million non-Jews' and 'six million Jews' killed by the Third Reich regime?

Of which, according to ddt 'only' 250K Jews were murdered in Germany.
I also invite you to apologize for the word "in" in that last post, as I never claimed they were murdered inside Germany.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 01:20 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
..... You've repeatedly ignored that and insisted on "six million", i.e., the Jewish victims of the Nazis only. So yes, you have repeatedly denied the existence of other victims of the Nazis.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12120664

"Of course hundreds of thousands, and even millions of 'others' died."

Quote:
Fourth, the term Holocaust, in a wider sense, is applied to the mass-murder of all those victims - not just the Jewish ones - and therefore, the term "Holocaust denier" fits.
To not include everyone murdered by the Nazis in the Holocaust, does not make anyone a Holocaust denier. This is correct

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12120782

"To claim that the Holocaust was about virtually everybody is a gross revision of history "

For what was is commonly recognised as the Holocaust;

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article...uleId=10005143
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
http://www.history.com/topics/world-.../the-holocaust

Quote:
Fifth, if anyone has been making shabby claims it's you and only you. However, I would not use the term "shabby" or even "shabby in the extreme" as Craig has done; I would call this willful lying. And it's extremely dishonest of you to intimate that others may have been making shabby claims.

As proof of those claims, see the (fragments of) posts in this thread, chronologically, as quoted at the end of this post.

I invite you to acknowledge that you, and you alone, have been far too low numbers of Nazi murders, and that you thereby have been denying the Nazi murders of Poles, Russians, Roma&Sinti, gays, disabled, etc. I invite you to formally retract your previous claims, I invite you to own up that you made false claims in those posts, I invite you to concede that, based on those posts, people were right to call you a "Holocaust denier" and a "Nazi apologist" and I invite you to profusely apologize for your behaviour.

As long as you don't do that, the contents of those posts still stand and you're still a Holocaust denier and Nazi apologist.
I have debated a lot of deniers, for a long time and Vixen is not expressing anything like what they believe.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12120863

"I get that there were many many killed besides the Jews. No, I don't reject those figures."
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Old 22nd December 2017, 02:16 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12120664

"Of course hundreds of thousands, and even millions of 'others' died."



To not include everyone murdered by the Nazis in the Holocaust, does not make anyone a Holocaust denier. This is correct

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12120782

"To claim that the Holocaust was about virtually everybody is a gross revision of history "

For what was is commonly recognised as the Holocaust;

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article...uleId=10005143
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
http://www.history.com/topics/world-.../the-holocaust



I have debated a lot of deniers, for a long time and Vixen is not expressing anything like what they believe.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12120863

"I get that there were many many killed besides the Jews. No, I don't reject those figures."
The US Holocaust Memorial Museum has suggested that the total of Nazi murders lies somewhere between 15 and 20 million, of whom six million were Jews.

It is the six million who are referred to by the word Holocaust, but the total number of murders is about two and a half or three times that. If that is what Vixen is now admitting, that's fine, but past posts from Vixen have not made that clear, as you may see if you read them.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 02:38 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The US Holocaust Memorial Museum has suggested that the total of Nazi murders lies somewhere between 15 and 20 million, of whom six million were Jews.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article...uleId=10008193

That is "Calculating the numbers of individuals who were killed as the result of Nazi policies", which is about 18 million in the linked to list.

Quote:
It is the six million who are referred to by the word Holocaust, but the total number of murders is about two and a half or three times that.
Which is why ddt is wrong to call Vixen a denier because it is common to call a subset of WWII deaths the Holocaust and he is not denying either those deaths, nor the other war deaths.

Quote:
If that is what Vixen is now admitting, that's fine, but past posts from Vixen have not made that clear, as you may see if you read them.
I have read through the thread from where Hans linked in the Holocaust denial thread. I see a debate that is about murder, killed and died and what should be included in the Holocaust and what is WWII deaths.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 03:24 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article...uleId=10008193

That is "Calculating the numbers of individuals who were killed as the result of Nazi policies", which is about 18 million in the linked to list.



Which is why ddt is wrong to call Vixen a denier because it is common to call a subset of WWII deaths the Holocaust and he is not denying either those deaths, nor the other war deaths.



I have read through the thread from where Hans linked in the Holocaust denial thread. I see a debate that is about murder, killed and died and what should be included in the Holocaust and what is WWII deaths.
Yes you see a debate. Has Vixen's position in that debate been clear?
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Old 22nd December 2017, 04:44 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have debated a lot of deniers, for a long time and Vixen is not expressing anything like what they believe.
I agree with you on that. I've debated several Holocaust deniers on this site too, and lurked in the HD thread(s), and she doesn't fit the standard pattern. The standard Holocaust denier denies the persecution and mass murder of Jews, and there's not even discussion of mass murder of other groups.

Vixen has been denying the mass murder of those other groups, and that started in this thread at post #51; the first of the posts you cited where she suddenly says she acknowledges them in post #341. She denies she ever denied those other deaths and lies about what she has posted before. Until she retracts her earlier claims, those still stand.

I also refer you to her posts in the "Best way to lose faith" thread (link to start of relevant part) and the excerpts of that I posted in this thread in post #107. While we may quibble over whether "Holocaust denier" is the appropriate term, she has been denying the murder of Slavs, Roma&Sinti, gays, etc., and her posts clearly constitute Nazi apologia.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:04 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
And Hitler was the one that started the war. Let's not forget this one. Every death resulting from that decision is on his head as well.

As murderous as Stalin was, he still didn't equal the industrial type of killing of the Nazis and the fact that most of the fighting and dying in Europe occurred, because Hitler attacked other countries.
It might surprise you to know that the earliest programs against Jews were implemented by Russia (Catherine the Great) which is why there were such huge shtetls in Lodz, Central Europe (Germany/Austria) and (pre-)Eastern Europe.

In fact, those regions have had both German and Soviet occupation at some stage, blurring the boundaries of who's responsible for killing whom.

The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide. Who pushed the Jews into the ghettoes in the first place? It was the imperialist Russians, albeit over two centuries.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:13 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's another lie. The city Petrozavodsk, which lies on the western shore of Lake Onega, had never been Finnish in the first place:

So, Petrozavodsk was Russian before Russia acquired great swaths of Swedish territory in the Great Northern War and the Russo-Swedish War. After the 1808-1809 Finnish war, the city was not part of the Grand-Duchy of Finland. After the 1917 Russian Revolution and Finnish independence, it remained part of Russia and the Soviet Union, and in 1923 became the capital of the Karelian ASSR.

Oh, and the Finnish occupation of Petrozavodsk in 1941 cut the Murmansk railroad and forced the Soviets to lay around 400 km of railroad track going east around Lake Onega.

In summary, to posit that occupying Petrozavodsk was "reclaiming" territory is a flat-out lie.

The official representatives of the various town in this region petitioned Finland to come and liberate them from the Russians. The Finns duly obliged and held the region for three years, from 1941- 1944.

What you fail to understand is that these are Finnish-speaking peoples with Finnish culture and customs. The Karelians invited Finland.

For example, Wales is a recognisable ethnic region, with its own language culture and customs. However, it belongs to the UK. It doesn't mean it is not Welsh.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:18 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's why you cite a Swedish anarcho-syndicalist newspaper there? When it comes to smearing your Scandinavian neighbours, such considerations go out of the window?

Here's from a review of a book about those Swedish internment camps:

(translation Google Translate with some editing by me to make it into proper English).

The horror. Those evil Swedes treated the internees so horribly and guarded them so oppressively that they even could walk out of the camp and talk to journalists.

And no-one died either! I mean, the Finns did it right when they interned 24,000 ethnic Russians from Karelia and let 4,400 of them starve to death, and with the even higher 28% mortality rate among Soviet POWs. Right?

There's no doubt this was a human rights violation, but really, it's a footnote compared to everything else that went on during WW2, including what Finland did. But what else can you expect from a Nazi apologist?
The Swedes were supposed to be 'neutral' yet they were rounding up people into internment camps without trial...?

I always understood that a country had to be at war to have POW camps.

Anyway, Sweden can thank Finland for being a buffer to the bear next door. If it wasn't for Finland, no doubt half of western Europe would also have been a Soviet state.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:31 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Your denunciation of anything that's not favourable to your point of view as "Russian propaganda" is very tiresome. Furthermore, you're twisting my words with respect to Colonel Vikla. I wrote:

The preposition "after" in English denotes a temporal relation between two events, not (necessarily) a causal relation. Besides that, that (botched) English translation of the Finnish wiki you gave does not disprove any causal relationship.


As I've repeated already several times, Operation Arctic Fox was a joint operation of the Finnish and the Nazi German army:

The line-up of Arctic Fox consisted of:
1) German XXXVI Corps, consisting of:
1.a) German 169th Infantry Division
1.b) German SS-Division Nord
1.c) Finnish 6h Division
1.d) German Panzer Abteilung 211
2) Finnish III Corps consisting of:
2.a) Finnish 3rd Division
2.b) German Panzer-Abteilung 40

So, it was not only a joint operation of German and Finnish troops, but there were Finnish troops fighting under German corps command vice versa.

And they were not allies?


Really, your source is a magazine you bought at the airport?

Duh, when you can fight the Russkies in the regular Finnish army there's no need to enlist in the Waffen-SS, so it's small wonder the number is relatively low. Still, around 1,400 enlisted in the Finnish Volunteer Battalion. And how did they get there?

Oops, the Finnish government did the recruiting.

But Finland and Germany were not allies?
From your own quote:

Quote:
Quote:
The Finnish Government recruited men for service with the Waffen-SS for a two-year term in early 1941

Hitler's Operation Barbarossa was top secret as of that date, with only nine high ranking German officers privy to the plan as of early 1941. The plan was hatched December 1940 and D-Day was 2 June 1941. The fact that the Russian generals were taken by surprise by the lightning attack by German panzer tanks proves this was so.

The Holocaust did not reach its peak until mid 1942. As of that stage few people were aware that genocide was taking place, although news was coming out.

It's no good being priggish about Finland pushing to regain the old Mannerheim line and using old allies from WWI (the Germans, who if you recall, helped train Finnish officers to prevent the Bolshevik uprising taking root in Finland).

They were 'Brothers-in Arms' (Aseveljet) but they had total different ideologies.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:36 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Do you have an infinite supply of straw? The_Don is not claiming that, nor is anyone else in this thread. But Finland was allied with Nazi Germany and trying to obfuscate that fact by some euphemism like "co-belligerent" is a form of whitewashing.
Co-belligerent is the official term accepted by conventional establishment historians.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:39 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The official representatives of the various town in this region petitioned Finland to come and liberate them from the Russians. The Finns duly obliged and held the region for three years, from 1941- 1944.

What you fail to understand is that these are Finnish-speaking peoples with Finnish culture and customs. The Karelians invited Finland.
You earlier claimed that Finland in the Continuation War only wanted to regain the territory lost in the Winter War. First admit that you were flat-out lying there. Only then we can go on to discuss your claims above, which are false with 99.999% probability.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
For example, Wales is a recognisable ethnic region, with its own language culture and customs. However, it belongs to the UK. It doesn't mean it is not Welsh.
And stop making idiotic comparisons.

Oh, and you're still a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:40 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Swedes were supposed to be 'neutral' yet they were rounding up people into internment camps without trial...?

I always understood that a country had to be at war to have POW camps.
The people in those Swedish camps were not POWs. Stop lying and making stuff up.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Anyway, Sweden can thank Finland for being a buffer to the bear next door. If it wasn't for Finland, no doubt half of western Europe would also have been a Soviet state.


Oh, and you're still a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:43 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Co-belligerent is the official term accepted by conventional establishment historians.
No, that's the official Finnish government propaganda of the time to obfuscate and whitewash or soften the fact that Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany.

Quote those "establishment historians" if you want to prove your claim.

Oh, and you're still a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:59 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It might surprise you to know that the earliest programs against Jews were implemented by Russia (Catherine the Great) which is why there were such huge shtetls in Lodz, Central Europe (Germany/Austria) and (pre-)Eastern Europe.
I would think that if you really want to look at it's history, the persecution of the Jews dates back to Rome. Of course I'm no expert. Do you have reasons to think that the modern persecution of Jews really began with Catherine the Great?

Quote:
In fact, those regions have had both German and Soviet occupation at some stage, blurring the boundaries of who's responsible for killing whom.

The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide. Who pushed the Jews into the ghettoes in the first place? It was the imperialist Russians, albeit over two centuries.
So, just to be clear, your claim is that the blame for the Holocaust is ultimately to be placed on the Russians?
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Old 22nd December 2017, 07:00 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
From your own quote:




Hitler's Operation Barbarossa was top secret as of that date, with only nine high ranking German officers privy to the plan as of early 1941. The plan was hatched December 1940 and D-Day was 2 June 1941. The fact that the Russian generals were taken by surprise by the lightning attack by German panzer tanks proves this was so.

The Holocaust did not reach its peak until mid 1942. As of that stage few people were aware that genocide was taking place, although news was coming out.

It's no good being priggish about Finland pushing to regain the old Mannerheim line and using old allies from WWI (the Germans, who if you recall, helped train Finnish officers to prevent the Bolshevik uprising taking root in Finland).

They were 'Brothers-in Arms' (Aseveljet) but they had total different ideologies.
Stop evading. That has all nothing to do with what I posted.

First, give a simple, straight, yes/no answer to:
1) do you agree that Arctic Fox was a close cooperation between the Finnish and German armed forces?
2) do you agree that Arctic Fox was aimed at capturing Kandalaksha?
3) do you agree that the Finnish government recruited Finns for the Waffen-SS?

And stop trotting out your tired old Mannerheim Line:
Quote:
The Mannerheim Line (Finnish: Mannerheim-linja, Swedish: Mannerheimlinjen) was a defensive fortification line on the Karelian Isthmus built by Finland against the Soviet Union.
I'm not talking about the Karelian Isthmus, but about an operation in Lappland.

Oh, and you're still a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 07:04 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12120664

"Of course hundreds of thousands, and even millions of 'others' died."
The topic under discussion was how many people were murdered by Hitler. She presented the number of 6 million. That number is low by a factor of 2 or more.

Adding "hundreds of thousands" to it, it's still low by a factor of 2 or more. "even millions" suggests that perhaps at most a few million. Of course she could just be clear, as many of us have asked repeatedly, and say "yes, 15 million people were murdered by the Nazis". So far she hasn't done that. Her refusal to do so suggests to me that there's a reason for that.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 07:06 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I would think that if you really want to look at it's history, the persecution of the Jews dates back to Rome. Of course I'm no expert. Do you have reasons to think that the modern persecution of Jews really began with Catherine the Great?
According to a pious Lutheran like Vixen, sure.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 07:13 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It might surprise you to know that the earliest programs against Jews were implemented by Russia (Catherine the Great) which is why there were such huge shtetls in Lodz, Central Europe (Germany/Austria) and (pre-)Eastern Europe.

In fact, those regions have had both German and Soviet occupation at some stage, blurring the boundaries of who's responsible for killing whom.

The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide. Who pushed the Jews into the ghettoes in the first place? It was the imperialist Russians, albeit over two centuries.
The above post brought you to by the head of the new department of the IHR, entitled "rewriting 2,000 years of Jewish history". Who is so ignorant of Jewish history that she writes "programs" instead of "pogroms".

Please go on with sharing your wisdom of Nazi-apologia, Holocaust denial, virulent hate of anything Russian and, undoubtedly, soon to add also antisemitism.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 07:48 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yiddish is a German dialect which borrowed much from the shtetl populations.
Oy vey.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 08:00 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In fact, those regions have had both German and Soviet occupation at some stage, blurring the boundaries of who's responsible for killing whom.
Really? Are you now imputing that a part of those 6 million Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust were in fact not murdered on the instigation of poor, misunderstood Hitler but on the instigation of Stalin?
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Old 22nd December 2017, 11:13 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It might surprise you to know that the earliest programs against Jews were implemented by Russia (Catherine the Great) which is why there were such huge shtetls in Lodz, Central Europe (Germany/Austria) and (pre-)Eastern Europe.

In fact, those regions have had both German and Soviet occupation at some stage, blurring the boundaries of who's responsible for killing whom.

The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide. Who pushed the Jews into the ghettoes in the first place? It was the imperialist Russians, albeit over two centuries.
This is significant. Vixen is now making Stalin responsible for Czarist crimes, as if he hadn't committed enough of his own; and is shifting the guilt for the creation of ghettoes from Hitler to Stalin. Shtetls In the Pale of SettlementWP are not at all the same thing as the ghettoes established by the Nazis in Poland and the USSR.

By this ridiculous reasoning the perpetrator of the notorious murders of the Jews of Rome, during the Nazi occupation after the collapse of the Fascist regime, was the Pope, because in the Papal States prior to Italian unification, Jews were confined to ghettoes as places of residence, and were subject to many other social constraints. I may add that the most culpable anti Semites and killers of Jews during the revolutionary Civil Wars in Russia were not the Reds, but the "White" forces ranged against them.

In fact, enemies of Bolshevism falsely accused it of being a Jewish conspiracy, on account of the number of Jews in positions of influence within its ranks.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 03:18 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
So, just to be clear, your claim is that the blame for the Holocaust is ultimately to be placed on the Russians?
It's another reason why it's perfectly fine that Finland allied itself with the Nazis against the Allies. So far we've had:
  • Finland is 52,000 years old and the Finns were only reclaiming lost lands
  • Stalin killed twice as many people as Hitler and so was much worse
  • The Soviet Union wasn't one of the allies - the allies were only the UK and the US
  • Finland never fought any of the "real" allies (except when they did)
  • The Holocaust was really the Imperial Russians' fault which is why it was fine for Finland to be allied with the Nazis against the Soviet Union

My personal view is that Vixen does not intend to engage in Holocaust denial but rather to excuse Finland's behaviour during WWII and keep the Finnish creation myth intact and unsullied.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 03:25 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
....
Oh, and you're still a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier.
Sorry, still not getting the denier part. Vixen has openly acknowledged the Holocaust took place;

"The Holocaust did not reach its peak until mid 1942. As of that stage few people were aware that genocide was taking place, although news was coming out."

"The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide."

So what exactly is being denied?
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Old 23rd December 2017, 03:30 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Sorry, still not getting the denier part. Vixen has openly acknowledged the Holocaust took place;

"The Holocaust did not reach its peak until mid 1942. As of that stage few people were aware that genocide was taking place, although news was coming out."

"The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide."

So what exactly is being denied?
The deaths of up to 9 million non-Jews
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Old 23rd December 2017, 03:37 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The topic under discussion was how many people were murdered by Hitler. She presented the number of 6 million. That number is low by a factor of 2 or more.

Adding "hundreds of thousands" to it, it's still low by a factor of 2 or more. "even millions" suggests that perhaps at most a few million. Of course she could just be clear, as many of us have asked repeatedly, and say "yes, 15 million people were murdered by the Nazis". So far she hasn't done that. Her refusal to do so suggests to me that there's a reason for that.
Maybe I am not getting this because the Holocaust generally refers to the c6 million were murdered, as in certain civilians were specifically killed (gassing, shooting) due to Nazi racial and territorial policies to produce a new expanded Germany that was free of Jews, Roma and others.

Millions more civilians died as casualties of war due to military operatons such as bombing raids and seiges. If that is murder, then the Allies also murdered a lot of civilians.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 03:39 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The deaths of up to 9 million non-Jews
But Vixen has acknowledged other casualties of war.

I think it is right to differentiate between those specifically murderd as part of a genocidal operation and those who died as casualties of war.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 04:05 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
."The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide."
At least have the decency and sense to cite the whole of Vixen's wording about this, and don't make yourself look ridiculous.
Quote:
The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide. Who pushed the Jews into the ghettoes in the first place? It was the imperialist Russians, albeit over two centuries.
So what exactly is being denied?
Two things. The plenitude of Hitler's responsibility for setting up ghettos in occupied countries. In previous utterances was being denied the murders of millions of Hitler's victims who were of other than Jewish ethnicity. I'm not sure if that is still being denied, or diluted, or admitted, or whether Hitler, or Stalin or Catherine the Great is being made responsible.

Another thing. The expression "Warsaw uprisingWP" usually refers to the general Home Army uprising of 1944, not the Warsaw Ghetto UprisingWP of 1943. Is there confusion in Vixen's mind over these two events?

Last edited by Craig B; 23rd December 2017 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 04:32 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Sorry, still not getting the denier part. Vixen has openly acknowledged the Holocaust took place;

"The Holocaust did not reach its peak until mid 1942. As of that stage few people were aware that genocide was taking place, although news was coming out."

"The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide."

So what exactly is being denied?
If you read this post, she actually tries to deny part of the Holocaust (in a strict sense);
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It might surprise you to know that the earliest programs against Jews were implemented by Russia (Catherine the Great) which is why there were such huge shtetls in Lodz, Central Europe (Germany/Austria) and (pre-)Eastern Europe.

In fact, those regions have had both German and Soviet occupation at some stage, blurring the boundaries of who's responsible for killing whom.

The Warsaw Uprising: yes, the Nazis committed genocide. Who pushed the Jews into the ghettoes in the first place? It was the imperialist Russians, albeit over two centuries.
The third paragraph tries to shift the blame for the Polish part of the Holocaust from the Nazis to Czarist Russia.

The second paragraph, in the context of this thread, tries to shift an unspecified number of murder of Jews from the Hitler column to the Stalin column. She's roundly back on the road to "Stalin killed more than Hitler". And yes, I think you must also agree that the above counts as Holocaust denial.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
But Vixen has acknowledged other casualties of war.
We're not talking casualties of war.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think it is right to differentiate between those specifically murderd as part of a genocidal operation and those who died as casualties of war.
Genocide is a bit of a problematic word here as you cannot genocide gays, disabled, Jehovas, or socialists or communists. But she's been denying the mass murder of those groups as well, at least for 8 pages, and her feeble attempts to now acknowledge them do not cut it unless and until she acknowledges that denial and retracts it.

The same holds for the Nazi genocide of Roma and Sinti.

The same holds for the Nazi genocide of Poles and other Slavs, which was not intended to eradicate the whole population, but to eradicate its "intelligentsia" in a very broad sense and enslave the remaining population.

Vixen is still a Holocaust denier and a Nazi apologist.
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